Carmack Needs Rocket Fuel 662
Reality Master 101 writes "Saw an interesting post on the Experimental Rocket Propulsion Society BBS from John Carmack, who is working on an X-prize vehicle. Apparently he is having a lot of trouble getting Peroxide from the major suppliers, and is possibly thinking of helping someone set up a company to produce peroxide. With NASA's recent problems, there has been a lot of talk about promoting more private investment in rocketry. But how can it happen when the suppliers won't even sell peroxide to well financed, registered, X-prize teams? Anyone want to start a peroxide business?"
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Informative)
it's a bird! it's a plane! it's... (Score:2, Informative)
Date: Tue Feb 4 22:02:01 2003
List-archive: http://lists.erps.org/archives/erps-list/
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
No, I would not. It's too dangerous. (Score:3, Informative)
And no, I'm not being melodramatic. To be useful it needs to be 100%... but you typically won't find it available over 35%. It's a great oxidizer- add a little to your next charcoal fire and enjoy the fumes! (ok, you'd need a catalyst like Manganese Dioxide to do it, but still...).
Manufacture it onsite and hope you don't have an accident with your 100 gallon teflon vessels.... and please do it somewhere away from where I live.
Slashdotted, here is his post (Score:4, Informative)
We are starting to get the distinct impression that FMC is fucking with us on the peroxide supply situation. We keep doing the things they say (spending thousands of dollars), and they keep coming up with some other reason we still can't buy peroxide (or just not return calls for weeks). They have strung us along for a long time now, and convinced us to stop talking to Degussa, but we still don't have peroxide.
There was some talk about this a while ago, but I was a lot more hopeful about FMC, so I didn't pursue it -- maybe it is time to set up a new company on the scale of X-L Space Systems.
I don't want to be in the chemical processing business, but I would probably be willing to be an anchor customer. I want to buy $100,000 worth of peroxide this year.
One of Michael Carden's customers has one of his concentrators, and is willing to do some peroxide production for us, but I would really prefer to work with a company, even a small one, that is devoted to peroxide, and really cares about all the details, not just someone that can feed a machine.
Would any ERPS people be interested in actually running a business to do this? I would be happiest working with a proven production system (one of Michael's), but I could entertain notions of paying for more development work on the ERPS concentrators.
This is sort of a trial balloon here -- if FMC turns around and ships us peroxide, that is still my preferred solution.
John Carmack
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Informative)
Thank you for your time,
Frank Russo
Re:Lable under terrorist (Score:5, Informative)
This is exactly the problem. H2O2 can be violently reactive and in fact can even be hypergolic if mixed with certain compounds causing inadvertent accidents. The Nazi's found this out with their Me163's which actually had more losses due to refueling than combat losses.
There are easier and safer ways to make bombs than with H202, but if someone wanted for instance to make a bomb using this stuff it could be done and be quite destructive.
Hydrogen Peroxide (H202) (Score:5, Informative)
I know of at least 2 outfits starting out with hydrogen peroxide rockets - Armadillo Aerospace (Carmack's outfit) and the infamous Rocket Guy (the toy inventor turned spaceman.)
Research into hydrogen peroxide rockets was done in during WWII, and actually made it into some experimental applications, I believe...
Re:What kind? (Score:4, Informative)
The peroxide that people find at the drug store is 3 percent.
The stuff used in rocket engines is extremely caustic, in other words it will burn any organic matter (read skin, muscle, bone, etc.) on contact.
Not to mention the Department of Transportation doens't like it moving over their highways.
Re:What kind? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What kind? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:What kind? (Score:1, Informative)
It's MUCH more concentrated.
Here's a page describing the grades.
http://www.h2o2-4u.com/grades.html/a [h2o2-4u.com]
Re:What kind? (Score:5, Informative)
When I worked for American Rocket Company in 1988-89, we used 80% Hydrogen Peroxide as fuel for our thrust vector control system. Sixteen injectors at the throat of the main engine nozzle under computer control squirted H2O2 into the plume and it deflected the plume, and therefore the thrust, by enough to steer a rocket.
This was really nasty stuff. IIRC, the only place we could get it was Germany, and we had to jump through all kinds of transportation safety hoops just to get it over here. 80% is a very high concentration, I don't know if Carmack needs this much or not. Peroxide you get at the drug store is 3% H2O2 and 97% H2O.
One of the test valves came back from our engine test site at Edwards and we rinsed it thoroughly with water. Still, when I handled it, traces of the peroxide burned my skin. Very nasty, very painful.
We also worked with other cool stuff like LOX (oxidizer), Silane (for ignition), and my favorite gas, Nitrous Oxide (another oxidizer, self-pressurizing and fun at parties!). I still have a hunk of polybutadiene rocket fuel on my desk as a souvenier; we used to cast that stuff into all kinds of fun shapes, including some you wouldn't be able to show your mother.
Peroxide fueled the X-15 (Score:3, Informative)
Re:What kind? (Score:2, Informative)
Chemical makeup is H2O2. Pure Hydrogen Peroxide is rather unstable - sunlight can cause it to deteriorate into 2H2O+02, so it requires special care to keep it. It's also caustic - at one time it was used for bleach.
They use it for rocket fuel by passing the H2O2 over a mildly electrically charged platinum grid, which causes it to break into H2 and O2 - an instant, highly combustible rocket fuel.
Soko
Re:What kind? (Score:3, Informative)
This site [tecaeromex.com] even shows someone distilling peroxide to make it more potent, presumably for use as rocket fuel.
Rocket Guy is Producing Peroxide (Score:2, Informative)
Re:What kind? (Score:2, Informative)
We used gasoline.
In Ze New World Order (Score:4, Informative)
There are the liability issues as well if any chemical company ever sells stocks innocently to any terrorists. In a risk-adverse environment, most companies will not take that risk.
Besides, you've seen those Carmack games. They are violent! He creates violence in our children! We must protect our children!!!
Umm (Score:3, Informative)
The Glonoinha Channel - it's time well spent.
Talk to the Researchers at Purdue (Score:5, Informative)
I think they couldn't get stuff above 80% because of transportation concerns... I believe that they were able to distill the 80% stuff up to higher concentrations. They've also developed catalysts that can be mixed with the peroxide as a colloid to get better performance.
Purdue has just rehabilitated an Apollo-era test facility to do some engine tests. When they get up to full swing, they'll probably have the best facility at a University. Armadillo might want to contact them about using their facility for tests.
If the Armadillo guys have halfway decent designs, I'm sure the Purdue people would love an excuse to light up a new engine.
Rocketguy has this part down at least (Score:4, Informative)
Of course he does have to buy it (at 50% purity), so maybe that's a problem now too.
Re:Interesting (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, a high explosive is simply an explosive that expands faster than the speed of sound (a shock wave), while a low explosive remains subsonic. From a practical standpoint, this means that a low explosive will just burn fast unless it is confined. A high explosive is effectively 'confined' by the surrounding air.
I imagine they are going with H2O2 rather than LOX so they don't have to insulate the tank, deal with extremely low temperatures (and ice) as it boils, and of course, deal with venting the tank while filling/counting down, etc.
Re:What kind? (Score:2, Informative)
Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) is essentially water with one extra oxygen molecule. When it comes into contact with almost any organic material, it decomposes into water and pure oxygen, plus a little heat (2 h2o2 --> 2 h2o + o2). I believe the term is "hypergolic," though someone might be able to confirm or refute that.
So, how does that make a rocket? Well, it seems that a good catalyst for the reaction is silver. Take high-concentrate h2o2 (referred to as HTP, or "high-test peroxide") and spray it through a silvered screen and it will more or less immediately turn to water (steam in this case) and free oxygen at about 1600 degrees F. Make this happen in a combustion chamber with a nozzle on one end, and you've got a rocket.
Hydrogen peroxide is what is referred to as a monopropellant because you only need one fuel to run the engine, as opposed to the shuttle engines that use liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen.
Back in the fifties, some Brits leveraged the bright idea that, if you've got high temperatures and free oxygen, adding a little petroleum (kerosene in this case) to the mix would cause auto-ignition of the kerosene and oxygen, adding to the boost of the engine. This bipropellant system worked well, and they used it for quite a while in production rocket engines.
In modern times, Beal (I think) was working on an HLLV (heavy lift launch vehicle) based on HTP/Kerosene, but lacked funding and the project went under. Carmack's company, Armadillo Aerospace is shoestringing along with a lot of progress that can be seen on their web site.
Armadillo Aerospace [armadilloaerospace.com]
British HTP Rockets [aol.com]
Homebuilt Rocket Bikes (and Cars) [tecaeromex.com]
Make your own! (Score:2, Informative)
Beal Aerospace (Score:1, Informative)
Peroxide as fuel (Score:2, Informative)
Linkage as follows:
How Stuff Works article on peroxide rockets
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question159
Peroxide FAQ
http://webhome.idirect.com/~earlcp/FAQs/FAQ.
-Z
Armadillo Aerospace is not a corporation (Score:5, Informative)
Different stuff (Score:2, Informative)
Here [idirect.com]'s a decent FAQ on peroxide, with some stuff on rocketry uses included.
Re:I know where he can get it (Score:3, Informative)
Not exactly general interest news, but... (Score:5, Informative)
I am not interested in hearing from every chem major that is interested in starting a business (already heard from a couple, that's how I found out about the slashdot story). However, if anyone here does happen to have a brother-in-law that is a VP at FMC or some such, a little nudge wouldn't hurt.
The full story:
Rocket grade peroxide is stabilizer free, and 85% - 100% concentrated, as opposed to drug store peroxide at about 3% concentration. You can get up to 70% peroxide reasonably easily, but the high concentration stuff is a specialty item.
When we started our development work a bit over two years ago, we were doing some concentration of the peroxide ourselves, which is fine for making small test batches, but you really don't want to be making drums of the stuff, or you wind up spending as much time messing with that as you do building rockets.
We had some initial discussions with FMC about that time, but they weren't terribly encouraging. Shortly thereafter, we made contact with X-L Space Systems, a small company that was producing 98% concentration peroxide and selling it reasonably to several small outfits, as well as NASA and the USAF. I wound up buying a dozen or so drums from X-L, and everything was going well.
The owner of X-L was having such a hard time getting the government to pay their bills on time (he never had complaints about his small commercial customers) that he finally decided it just wasn't worth the headache, and he closed the company down. I was in discussion with him to make a large enough order to justify keeping production open, but we wouldn't need all that much peroxide for nearly eight months, so the storage logistics were looking troublesome. In hindsight, I should have worked something out, even if it was expensive or difficult.
About six months ago, we started contacting FMC again. The details haven't been very pleasant, largely because we keep thinking we are almost there, and it keeps not being the case. If they would just tell me exactly what I have to buy to make them happy, I would gladly do it, but they keep finding new things. That is the "stringing us along" part. They are mumbling again about lawyers and liability at the moment, which we thought had been worked through previously.
We have also spoken to Degussa about production, but they won't sell in drums, only large storage tanks (they supposedly have some drums in the US, but they are "promised to" NASA, and they won't sell them to us). We could live with that, but we broke off contact with them a while ago because FMC was sounding reasonable, but insisting that they be our sole supplier.
This is one of the unfortunate tradeoffs in modern society -- in the 70's, FMC would just ship drums of peroxide to the guys doing rocket powered dragsters without any hassles (one of them sent me a scan of some of his old shipping invoices). Today, fears of liability are larger than basic business drives like making money with your product. I'm not a "back in the good old days" sort, I fully recognize that the other advantages of modern society outweigh the nanny-state disadvantages, but one can always hope for across-the-board improvements.
Other than being almost out of peroxide, things are going very well for Armadillo. We rescheduled a lot of our development now that the X-Prize is fully funded, so we are parallel tracking full scale vehicle development with subscale flight testing.
John Carmack
Re:What kind? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:I know where he can get it (Score:3, Informative)
Try Canada (Score:2, Informative)
Depending upon what you need, you might consider looking to get it in Canada. Canada is a much smaller market (only 10% as large as the USA) so Canadian manufacturers have had to become very good at small production runs and custom orders.
The North American Free Trade Agreement makes it relatively painless to get things across the border and $1.00 US gets you about $1.50 Canadian, so you typically get more for your money, too.
If you can't find what you want on your own, check us out at www.ProjectsDoneRight.com [projectsdoneright.com]
We have contacts that may be able to help.
Morris
An explanation about the Kursk comment (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not exactly general interest news, but... (Score:5, Informative)
Anyway, I used to work at FMC, although not in their chemical division. In the late nineties, FMC made a huge gamble by selling their defense interests, and diverting funds to hydrogen peroxide production, and lost big. The thought was that the demand for industrial hydrogen peroxide was going to skyrocket (pardon the pun), and it didn't.
When all was said and done, FMC had so much peroxide production capacity that went unused, that it became a huge liability. Where this is leading is that if you aren't going to use let's say more than 100,000 gallons of peroxide, they probably wouldn't think of selling any to you.
Don't take it personally. Oh, and the current CEO was known internally as quite a hatchet man throughout his carreer at the company. Since I no longer work there, I can say that he was quite an asshole (unlike his predicessor). Whenever Neidermier showed up at our site, he canned people with something that approximated a dartboard method (in a large assembly of employees no less). He cuts operations and personnel on a whim, so his inner circle would probably not get on his bad side by giving some charity to a cool project. Sorry to spoil the benevolent VP dream.
-- Len