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Space Science

Two Black Holes to Merge 84

Posted by timothy from the which-ceo-gets-to-stay dept.
An anonymous reader writes "Astronomers have discovered two supermassive black holes that they predict will eventually collide. As they say in bad SF, 'it could warp the fabric of space.'"
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Two Black Holes to Merge More

Two Black Holes to Merge

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  • Sure it may be able to warp the fabric of space (Score:3, Funny)

    by Tim_F ( 12524 ) on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @09:21PM (#4711904)
    But what will it do to the continuum of time?

    • mel brooks knows what it'll do (Score:4, Funny)

      by evacuate_the_bull ( 517290 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @01:29PM (#4716453)
      make this more apropo :)

      Dark Helmet:"What the hell am I looking at?
      When does this happen in the movie?"
      ColonelSandurz: "Now. You're looking at now, sir.
      Everything that happens now is happening now."
      Dark Helmet: "What happened to then?"
      Colonel Sandurz: "We passed it."
      Dark Helmet: "When?"
      Colonel Sandurz: "Just now. We're at now, now."
      Dark Helmet: "Go back to then!"
      Colonel Sandurz: "When?"
      Dark Helmet: "Now!"
      Colonel Sandurz: "Now?"
      Dark Helmet: "Now!"
      Colonel Sandurz:"We can't!"
      Dark Helmet: "Why?"
      Colonel Sandurz: "We missed it."
      Dark Helmet: "When?"
      Colonel Sandurz:"Just now."
      Dark Helmet: "When will then be now?"
      Colonel Sandurz: "Soon."
      Dark Helmet: "How soon?"
      Technician: "Sir!"
      Dark Helmet: "What?!"
      Technician: "We've identified their location!"
      Dark Helmet: "Where?!"
      Technician: "It's the moon of Vega."
      Colonel Sandurz:"Good work. Set a course and prepare for our arrival!"
      Dark Helmet: "When?!"
      Technician: "Nineteen hundred hours, sir!"
      Colonel Sandurz: "By high noon tomorrow they will be our prisoners!"
      Dark Helmet: "WHO??!!"
    • Damit.. I told "Q" once, I told him twice, to stop screwing around with us humans. One more time and I am going to have Lt. Worf go medevil on his ass.

  • What?! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    As they say in bad SF, 'it could warp the fabric of space.'

    I thought they said 'May the force be with you' in really bad SF...

  • If two objects which warp space so much that nothing can ever collide with them collide, what the bloody fuck happens?
    • "...warp space so much that nothing can ever collide with them..." - Lord Bitman
      I think perhaps you have a fundamental misunderstanding of black holes. The truth is somewhat the opposite: anything that passes within the event horizon can't not "collide" with the black hole.

  • Heh (Score:3, Interesting)

    by TheOnlyCoolTim ( 264997 ) <tim...bolbrock@@@verizon...net> on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @09:40PM (#4712011)
    I remember reading a book, I think it was part of the Manifold series by Stephen Baxter, where the premise of the story was that every few hundred million years a collision like this killed all life in the entire galaxy through a massive release of radiation.

    Tim
    • This is also close the a background plot in Ringworld, only there the radiation was caused by a chain reaction of super novas in the galactic core.

  • 'it could warp the fabric of space.' (Score:3, Insightful)

    by E1v!$ ( 267945 ) on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @09:40PM (#4712012) Homepage
    Yea, right. I have several billion electrons right here warping the fabric of space.

    Who the hell thinks this crap up?

  • Or, as in they say in poorly written articles... (Score:5, Informative)

    by Romothecus ( 553103 ) on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @09:40PM (#4712014)
    EVERYTHING WITH MASS WARPS SPACE. The more massive it is, the more it warps space. Black holes warp space so much it "tears," for lack of a better term. Two black holes combining into one huge black hole isn't going to do anything that they wouldn't do otherwise.

  • Sure... (Score:5, Funny)

    by dimator ( 71399 ) on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @09:44PM (#4712032) Homepage Journal
    They might *think* they're doing the right thing, but they're young now. Let's just hope they sign a pre-nup.

  • Already happened (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @09:52PM (#4712080)
    Keep in mind that the further out we look in space, the further into the past we are seeing. Since these black holes are 400 million light-years away, we are seeing them as they were 400 million years ago, and the researchers are predicting that they'll merge in a few hundred million years, which means they collided a hundred million years ago or so. Humans (or whatever species we evolve into) will most likely be extinct long before the light from the collision reaches us hundreds of millions of years from now.

    • Re:Already happened (Score:3, Informative)

      by lexarius ( 560925 )
      I suppose it depends on how fast gravitational waves travel. Assuming they travel no faster than light speed, it is entirely possible that we wouldn't feel the effects of this until we actually see it.
      • AFAIK 'Gravity Waves' are not bound by the speed of light, they are instantaneous. This is coming from a dark corner in the back of my mind which I haven't visited in some time. I think I remembered something about gravity being above-and-beyond light and time in the cosmic pecking order. Also bear in mind that this collision would be nothing as the effect of it will decrease on the square of the radius (another dark corner of my mind) like light; Don't buy earthquake insurance yet folks.
        • AFAIK 'Gravity Waves' are not bound by the speed of light, they are instantaneous.

          Quote from this [iop.org] page: "Gravitational waves are a prediction of Einstein's general relativity theory which describes gravity as distortions, caused by mass, of the very fabric of the Universe - spacetime. They are ripples in the spacetime fabric that travel outwards at the speed of light."

          However measurements [bbc.co.uk] are on the way to test this.
          • Indeed, if "gravity waves" conform to current theories (quantum physics, relativity, and I think string theory), they are essentially "virtual particles" having infintesimal mass, thus the fastest they can travel is assymptotically close to the speed of light. (see wave-particle duality in any quantum physics textbook).
            • gravitons have spin 2 and zero mass according to both the standard model and string theory; hence they travel at c.

              Think about it a second. If gravitons moved slower than c, then by moving fast enough you could outrun them -- and escape from a black hole.

              • Think about this for a second.... ask any physicist, and they will tell you. Indeed I have taken many physics classes, as half my degrees entail physics... I have many physicist friends. All particles have math, even though they appear to be infinitesimal. Take an electron for example, its mass is 9.10939x10^-31 kg, rather small... rather small even compared to a protons mass of 1.67262x10^-27 kg. In indeed even photons have a slight mass, this is part of the paradox associated with the wave-particle duality. If no 'massy' particle can travel the speed of light (and any particle, due to being made of matter has mass), how can a photon travel at c (speed of light in a vacuum - 2.9979x10^8 m/s).
                • Apparently you are suffering from some sort of brain damage. A site [benbest.com] describing the standard model includes this text:
                  Photons & gravitons have no mass, whereas the gluon and weak-force quantum-particles have mass of 0.14 and 80-90 GeV, respectively. Mass of subatomic particles is described by the mass-energy unit GeV, Giga (billion) electron volts. (The amount of energy an electron gains moving through a potential of one volt in a vacuum is one electron-volt,1eV.) Gravity is only included in the Standard Model by tentative hypothesis -- gravitons have never been observed.

                  If massy particles could travel at c, then according to Special Relativity their mass would appear infinite to outside observers.

                  I have never heard that photons were ever thought to have mass. They have momentum of course, equal to Planck's constant times their frequency; but they have no mass.

                  Even if you were taught in your "physics classes" that photons had mass, a two minute search of Google shows that 99% of the website-producing population of earth disagrees. Admittedly, that is not necessarily proof - it's been said that any idiot can put up a web site, and many idiots have - but reading textbooks and the physics section of any bookstore will produce the same conclusion.

                  • That is why it is indeed a paradox... quantum physics may not agree with this, however, relativity does. You must be suffering from brain damage to believe that an electron volt is synonymous with mass. As you stated, an electron volt is the voltage required to move an electron through a 1 volt potential... this is not a mass, as it can be converted to the SI standard unit for energy called a joule, which by the metric (SI) definition is defined as a newton x metre. So in essense, you are telling me that your power company is creating mass, which would break the conservation of mass law in physics, which is one of the most fundamental laws. So when you start believing something as idiotic as that, you are indeed setting yourself at the same supposed level as myself.... I dont profess to be a physicist, but I have gotten into debates with pysicist and post-doctural fellows, regarding massless particles. Yes they are essentially massless, that is because the mass is infinitesimal, and if you pull out that book labelled dictionary with all the dust on it (note, the dust may actually cover some or all of the letters), and look that word up, you may start to understand what I'm saying. Do I believe it entirely? No.... and if you read what I stated, you would note that I said modern theories state this... so when you start to flame someone, know what you're talking about, flame with tact, and couth.
      • I'm not sure, but don't gravitational waves travel infanitely fast?
    • the light from the collision
      Erm, they're black holes dude, not even light can escape, we wont be 'seeing' them ever.

      • Re:Already happened (Score:1, Informative)

        by Anonymous Coward
        You're wrong. Objects being sucked into black holes emit large bursts of X-rays and other energy that can be measured with detectors and "seen."
    • unless, of course, the scientists know about what you described and added the extra time. let's say, they look at the 2 black holes and say: holy cow, they are going to merge in 800 million years. oh wait, they are 400 million light years away from us, so it will actually happen in 400 million years from now on.

  • profound quote of the day :) (Score:5, Funny)

    by Minupla ( 62455 ) <minupla@noSpaM.gmail.com> on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @10:03PM (#4712144) Homepage Journal
    "Black holes are where God divided by zero." - Steven Wright

  • When anf How Far (Score:3, Interesting)

    by kmellis ( 442405 ) <kmellis@io.com> on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @10:46PM (#4712473) Homepage
    Note that although the distance to this galaxy and when the collision will be observed both just happen to be in the half-billion year range, the two numbers are independent.

    (Except that there's the weird possibility that the speed of gravity waves may not be equal to the speed of light. Gravity waves are what the article is presumably referring to when it talks about "warping the fabric of space". BTW, I don't even pretend to understand the "speed of gravity" debate, nor even am I equipped to assess whether it's a legitimate debate or fringe/crank science. I can't even sort out the terms that are used.)

  • I'm confused (Score:5, Funny)

    by darthBear ( 516970 ) <hactar.hactar@org> on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @11:48PM (#4712863)
    no one else is reporting that AOL-TW and Microsoft are going to merge.

  • Is the FTC looking into this merger? (Score:3, Funny)

    by leviramsey ( 248057 ) on Tuesday November 19, 2002 @11:51PM (#4712878) Journal

    Also, how much synergy between the black holes can be leveraged to deliver greater shareholder value?

  • "The breakthrough came with Chandra's ability to clearly distinguish the two nuclei, and measure the details of the X-radiation from each nucleus," said Guenther Hasinger, also of the Planck Institute and the paper's co-author.

    I find the use of the term nucleus to be interesting in light of the subject matter. When I think of a nucleus, I think of the particles at the center of an atom, not the remnants of multiple stars sucking in everything around them.

    Yes, I'm aware the term is used in other ways, such as the 'nucleus' of a cell. It still jumped out at me a bit.

  • three billions year, that all we have! (Score:5, Funny)

    by fermion ( 181285 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @02:01AM (#4713450) Homepage Journal
    relevant parts of the article

    Two giant black holes have been found at the center of a galaxy born from the joining of two smaller galaxies and are drifting toward a cataclysmic collision that will send ripples throughout the universe many millions of years from now, scientists said today.
    or, we will have destroyed ourselves or a meteor will destroy us by the time we see this.

    Eventually, those ripples will hit Earth's galaxy and cause infinitesimal wobbling in all matter, though it would be far too tiny to be noticed by humans.
    Even if we do survive long enough to see it, we won't care

    "This is the first time we have ever identified a binary black hole. This is the aftermath of two galaxies that collided sometime in the past."
    So it is not enough that we might be sucked into one black hole, now we can be split apart by two.

    In about four billion years, astronomers believe, the Milky Way and the nearby Andromeda galaxy will collide and merge, fusing their black holes into one.
    So in addition to meteors, magnetic reversal, volcanos, and sunspot we know have to worry about another galaxies offing us.

    The Sun is expected to blow up into a nova in three billion years, and perhaps then collapse to form a small black hole of its own, he said.
    But this doesn't matter because our sun will suck in our burned remnants long before that.

    Now, why is it that we are so optimistic?

    • three billions year, that all we have!
      What you say !!
    • The Sun is expected to blow up into a nova in three billion years, and perhaps then collapse to form a small black hole of its own, he said.

      Our sun is not big enough to form a black hole by most accounts.

      Also, the sun may start heating up in just a few hundred million years according to some predictions. It is not a sudden thing, but rather gradule (although there are key points where changes are rather quick later on.)

      The Earth is nearing the end of its "comfortable" part of life. The Sun and perhaps our magnetic field (according to some theories) will start "falling apart" from here on out.
    • The Sun is expected to blow up into a nova in three billion years, and perhaps then collapse to form a small black hole of its own, he said.

      The Sun will do no such thing. It'll blow up into a red giant, and then when the outer atmosphere drifts away it will leave behind a white dwarf. The Sun doesn't have remotely enough mass to form a black hole.

  • Can they be nullified? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by SAN1701 ( 537455 )
    I wonder what happens when a black-hole starts eating anti-matter (if it finds some). Does this decreases its mass, since matter and anti-matter destroy each other?
    • No, because the equivalent energy of the mass is released, and because the energy can't escape from the black hole, it might as well be counted as mass. I think. Or maybe not... perhaps you'd better just ask Hawking, cos he's made a career out of answering entirely pointless questions just like that one...
      • I do know that antimatter has positive mass, only oposite electrical charge... But the energy that results from the destruction matter/antimatter itself will be counted as mass ??? Well, just a though.
    • Good question. I guess it depends on whether antimatter has negative mass. AFAIK, all anyone knows right now is that it has opposite charges, and reacts violently with normal matter.
    • I hope that you realise that the energy produced by a matter-antimatter reaction usually turns straight back into matter and antimatter.
  • ...Tasha Yar is coming back?...

  • Time ... (Score:2, Funny)

    by vorwerk ( 543034 )
    You have to appreciate astrophysicists' short-term excitement and long-term planning.

    "Two black holes are going to merge! Two black holes are going to merge!

    Of course, we'll be watching this very carefully over the next one hundred million years ..." :)
  • They are just two infinetly small points merging together. You can't even see them.

    But hey, maybe they are going to give birth to a third hole. Just the way I learned in biology class. The one goes in, and then... I gotta go... MAMMY!...

  • Mistake (Score:3, Informative)

    by Yunzil ( 181064 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @01:25PM (#4716404) Homepage
    Dr. Hasinger noted that humans on Earth would not have to worry about this galactic collision: they will not be around. The Sun is expected to blow up into a nova in three billion years, and perhaps then collapse to form a small black hole of its own, he said.

    Um. No. The Sun is not massive enough to "blow up into a nova" or to collapse into a black hole. It will, most likely, expand into a red giant (and swallowing Mercury, Venus, and maybe the Earth). Whatever is left after that will shrink into a white dwarf.
    • BUT, the Earth's orbit will decay over the course of around 5 billion years, so we are going to get sucked in, one way or another.
      • BUT, the Earth's orbit will decay over the course of around 5 billion years, so we are going to get sucked in, one way or another.

        No. The sun is losing mass; something like 4.6 million tons per second. This means that the Earth's orbit is gradually getting larger, not decaying.

  • The big question (Score:5, Funny)

    by pagercam2 ( 533686 ) on Wednesday November 20, 2002 @02:25PM (#4717080)
    The earth's sun will burn it self out long before the few hundred million years, so the question is do two black holes really collide if no one is there to watch them????

  • When is it going to happen? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    According to the article, it said that it will happen in a couple hundred million years. However, since the black holes are 400 million light-years away, and the scientists are therefore looking at 400 million year old data...doesn't that mean it will happen soon?
  • Aren't you all forgetting that we don't even know if black holes exist yet? For all we know, it's just 2 gravastars or neutron stars, after all, don't forget that no one has ever seen a black hole, and probably no one ever will.

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