Mule Gives Birth 123
!splut writes "Thumbing it's nose as science, a Moroccan mule has given birth. Mules, hybrids between horse and donkey, are normally infertile, due to differences between the number and structure of horse and donkey chromosomes. Nevertheless, for reasons not well understood, fertile mules do occur, infrequently, with some 60 documented live births since 1527."
Re:Learn to spell (Score:1)
A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:1)
Sheesh, the things they're calling "science" these days!
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:2)
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:1)
But how does this make thumbing one's nose a science?
sheesh...
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:2)
Really, what it's doing is thumbing it's nose as science teachers; those people who told us that mules are sterile and heating solids always expand.
I understand your point.
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:1)
I find the science fascinating. Likewise, people's inability to use the English language.
In this case my knowledge of the language is better than my knowledge of the science, so I left the intelligent scientific observations to people such as yourself.
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:1)
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:2)
This was more a case of my inability to proofread my own typing.
I seem to have a typo every time I get a story accepted. You'd think I'd learn...
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:1)
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:2)
On the contrary, maybe that's the secret, Taco's all like "wow this was the first submitter today who can spell" :)
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:2)
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:1)
Re:A fertile mule does not mean a fertile mind. (Score:1)
just like watermelons! (Score:1)
(and no, I don't care what everything2 says - sexually-deviant horses and fertile watermelons do NOT make seedless ones.)
Re:the failure of Science (Score:3, Funny)
Well, the conditions of where life is created is scientifically known as 'bonking' or 'squelching' or 'doing the dirty' and it is fully expected that a similar route was followed here, although research involving staring at pictures of mixtures of animals is no doubt ongoing, but is having problems obtaining funding.
Re:the failure of Science (Score:3, Informative)
Creationism and Short Sightedness (Score:1, Insightful)
The point here, however, is that when folks that have an agenda immediately jump on something that MIGHT be remotely related, they tend to make themselves look like the donkeys in this story when they are proven wrong.
Slightly longer version -- Science is still growing and changing every day. I doubt that there are many (if any) scientists out there that say that science has all the answers today, or that science ever will. Kinda like the old expression -- "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know".
If you want to push a creationist agenda, don't jump like an idiot. Wait, think, and have logical and intelligent conversations. There are plenty of paradoxes and uncertainties in christianity too, let's not forget that the point is that humans are imperfect and fallable.
What you're saying amounts to people that used to bash Christopher Columbus for believing the world is round. "Oh look, another ship dropped off the face of the earth, never to return. You idiot. God designed the world to be flat, it's obvious! Maybe he's trying to tell you something by never having ships return." That, or something like "You're not supposed to fly, if so, God would have given you wings."
Again, I am a Christian, but I believe that as humans we are pretty darn smart, and can figure out most things. Don't sell science short just because it doesn't have the answer you want TODAY.
Re:Creationism and Short Sightedness (Score:1)
Mod parent up (Score:1)
Re:Creationism and Short Sightedness (Score:2)
"What you're saying amounts to people that used to bash Christopher Columbus for believing the world is round".
Actually, Queen Isabella knew *damned* well that (a) the world was round (b) the circumference was around 25,000 miles (c) that going east it was some 7,000 miles and (d) ships of the day didn't have the capacity to carry supplies for a trip of 18,000 miles the OTHER way. Chris Columbus thought the circumferences was 12,000 miles, and thought a ship could carry supplies for a 5,000 mile trip.
So Isabella finally shut him up by sending him off with 3 leaky ships crewed by prison scum, figuring if they never came back she'd not be sorry. And sure enough, 5,000 miles later Chris was running out of food when he found unexpected land. Fool that he was, he went to his deathbead truly convinced he *had* made it to the Orient.
Call Isabella the first of the high-risk venture capital financiers...
Re:Creationism and Short Sightedness (Score:1)
When someone chooses to sell themselves short like that and believe that they are capable of comprehending everything in the world with a small belief system where everything magically fits in, I have a problem.
Like before, I will state that I am a religious person -- I go to church on Sundays, I sing, I make donations. But I do not accept that just because people can't comprehend how things happened that God must have done it in a wink.
Hate to break it to most religious folks, but God is a good bit smarter than you, and if it's really easy to figure out, chances are you have the wrong answer.
Re:Creationism and Short Sightedness (Score:1, Troll)
or does it mean none of those?
in my lifetime i've heard christians say fags must die - in boston a guy had a four foot high placard on his car proclaiming that gays will burn in hell. i've heard christians berating single mothers - and i saw the hurt look in the eyes of my single mother. i've seen them hover over poorly performing college students hoping to convince them to drop out and join their church. i've seen them try to stop stem cell research. i've seen them try to stop a 13 year old rape victim from getting an abortion. i've seen them shout abuse at women going to an abortion clinic. i've heard them explain that white people were created and blacks evolved.
very few christians supported all of those things, but a lot of christians supported some of them.
so.
which christian are you?
Re:Creationism and Short Sightedness (Score:1)
I stole this, but it speaks to me.
http://www.voiceofgospel.org/beliefs.html
Re:the failure of Science (Score:1)
What doesn't work, most of the time, is a chromosomal deletion. Those are generally fatal, most of the time even before a fetus develops. So what is rare is not fertilization or even implantation, but birth. Still, I would expect that the foal would be tweeked in some way, not likely at all to thrive.
If horse breeders kill "fertile" mules (those that give a birth) it probably is not because they will be run out of business if mules become a new species (rather they should be thrilled; can you imagine how hard it is to get horses to mate with donkeys?!?) They are killing these animals because of fear that the birth is the result of sorcery, and that their business will suffer or they themselves might be accused of witchcraft. Two-headed sheep? Hens that crow? Mules giving birth? Toss a rope over a tree limb and go looking for a witch. (You can take the word of a practicing warlock.)
No explanation != failure of Science != a miracle (Score:5, Funny)
My parents met in Venezuala, working for shell oil, in the late 1940s. Shell had a company store where the North American employees could buy stuff you couldn't normally get in Venezuala. They had North American bungaloes for the North American employees. They had a little school with a North American teacher (my mom) for their children.
Like other North Americans my parents had a local cleaning lady. Unlike some of the other North Americans my parents learned Spanish.
My mom told how she taught Dahlia, how to prepare potatoes North American style. Including baking them. You peirce the skin so the steam can escape. I know most people do this by poking them with a fork. But in my family we cut a small X in the skin.
My mom's spanish wasn't yet sufficient to explain why you cut an X however.
A couple of days later there was an explosion in the kitchen. Dahlia is standing over the oven door, covered with exploded baked potatoe.
She was hysterical, and very apologetic. She told my mother that she realized she must have been very religious. But, she was in a hurry, and just this once, she thought that God would forgive her if she blessed the potatoes by putting the sign of the cross in them after they were baked, not before.
Dahlia couldn't explain this explosion, except to think it was a miracle. God punished her for not blessing the potatoe with a cross.
So, was it really a miracle? Of course not. Does an inability to explain a phenomenon mean that it is the reuslt of supernatural intervention? Of course not. Not with exploding potatoes, or with unexplained births.
Re:No explanation != failure of Science != a mirac (Score:2)
... not blessing the potatoe with a cross.
Great story, Mr. Vice President!
Re:No explanation != failure of Science != a mirac (Score:1)
Re:No explanation != failure of Science != a mirac (Score:1)
Re:No explanation != failure of Science != a mirac (Score:1)
Scott.
Re:the failure of Science (Score:2)
Hey... (Score:1)
Creation of Life... gee whiz!!
Fertile mules destroyed (Score:1)
Or perhaps that's just a legend?
Re:Fertile mules destroyed (Score:2)
An urban legend, with emphasis on the urban.
Re:Fertile mules destroyed (Score:1)
The reason for sterility... (Score:2, Interesting)
Are there known hybrids/half-breeds can have normal fertility, as opposed to requiring a "miracle" to occur? This is a sincere question, even though I know full well the trolls that are going to be attracted to this post.
Liger/Tigon (Score:3, Interesting)
downs syndrome (Score:1)
Re:downs syndrome (Score:2, Funny)
I like breaded mule, especially the chicken-fried I had at Outback. Oh, you mean breeding!
Sorry, corny joke. Had to do it. So sorry. :)
Re:The reason for sterility... (Score:1)
Re:The reason for sterility == odd chromosomes? (Score:4, Interesting)
The beeb and the British Mule org may have said mules are infertile because they have an odd number of chromosomes. But I am skeptical.
Here is an excerpt from a page about the Przewalski Horse [okstate.edu]
So, even if this site is mistaken to say that the 65 chromosome hybrid is fertile, what if you crossed a 62 chromosome Ass with a 66 chromosome Przewalski's Horse? That hybrid would have 64 chromosomes. Would that make it fertile?
Przewalski;s Horse and the three species of zebras (Score:2)
There are three different species of Zebra, including the Quagga [museums.org.za], which genetic analysis shows to be a subspecies of the Plains zebra.
Re:Przewalski;s Horse and the three species of zeb (Score:1)
Przewalski's Horse [okstate.edu] is pretty interesting. Something like 150 of these equids survive. All in zoos.
Just to be clear, that count is for North America only -- at least, according to the referenced Web document.
Re:The reason for sterility == odd chromosomes? (Score:1)
Re:The reason for sterility == odd chromosomes? (Score:2)
Is it? Can you explain this to me?
First, let me restate this, so I am sure we mean the same thing. You are saying that paired chromosomes are necessary for an animal to breed true with its peers, is this correct? You are not saying that having paired chromosomes are necessary for an offspring to be born, because mules obviously don't fulfill this condition.
So, how did the proto-equid, that was the ancestor of both Asses and the Horse split into two species with different numbers of chromosomes?
So, what about Down's syndrome individuals, who have an extra copy of chromosome 21? They don't fulfill your requirement for an even number of chromosomes. Yet I don't believe they are sterile.
Like MS-Windows programs, [ncl.ac.uk] our chromosomes contain a lot of code bloat.
I heard a lecture about this, when I was in high school. So this info may be incorrect, and I would welcome correction. That lecture included slides of individuals born with chromosome abnormalities. Our chromosomes vary in size. And they are numbered in order of size. The lecturer showed some individuals with an abnormality on a larger chromosome. She said that these individuals were more profoundly affected and had more health problems and more profound cognitive challenges than Down's Syndrome individuals. She said that abnormalities on the larger chromosomes result in problemso profound that the children are spontaneously aborted before they come to term.
Then there are chromosome abnormality of the X and Y. Turner's syndrome women lack a sex chromosome. They have a single X and no Y. They are of normal intelligence. But they never go through puberty, so they can't have children. There are people who have XXY and XYY. I don't believe they are sterile either. Another slashdotter said something about XXX women - women with three X chromosomes.
Since that lecture I have heard that some Down's symdrome individuals have only a fraction of the extra 21, and that there are less profoundly affected than individuals with a full extra chromosome 21.
Genes slip around. They slip from chromosome to chromosome. I saw a science documentary about how genes were slipping from the Y to the X. I am not a molecular biologist, but I imagine that 61 of the 62 chromomosomes of Horses and Asses correspond, and that sometime after they split into different species one of the chromosomes split in two. If this was the case, there would be genes for the same traits in the chromosomes from both parents, even though they had them on different chromosomes.
There was an article in Scientific American, on mule fertility about 45 years ago. It advanced a theory about Mule fertility, that Mules produce gametes, eggs and sperm, but that almost all of them contain a mixture of Ass and Horse chromosomes. And those would be no good. But occasionally a gamete is produced that has all the gametes from a single parent. IIRC the theory was that that gamete could be fertilized and brought to term. That offspring would be pure Horse or pure Ass. "One in million" is the estimate of how often a mule brings an offspring to term. Check my math. If this theory is correct
Here is something I don't understand. That documentary said that some of the genes on the Y are duplicated dozens of times. So, why does the mere single extra copy of genes in chromosome 21 cause the profound manifestations of Down's? Does each gene contain the molecular equivalent of an instruction pointer, or a map of bad sectors?
Re:The reason for sterility == odd chromosomes? (Score:2)
Re:The reason for sterility... (Score:1)
Hybrids: fertile and sterile (Score:1)
Are there known hybrids/half-breeds can have normal fertility, as opposed to requiring a "miracle" to occur?
Short answer: YES. There are very many recorded cases of animals and plants of different species hybridizing and the descendants being fertile. Depends on the species involved, some hybrids are sterile, some are not. They often are. But that hybrids are sterile is a myth.
Re:Hybrids: fertile and sterile (Score:2)
Here is an example [orst.edu]. Most of the most widely used cereals are hybrids that breed true. However, from memory, I think that the number of chromosomes of triticale and similar hybrids is the sum of the number of chromosomes in the parent stock, not the average.
If the name triticale rings a bell it may be because Captain Kirk had to make an emergency delivery of QuadroTriticale in an old Star Trek episode.
Re:Hybrids: fertile and sterile and m×2×n (Score:1)
>However, from memory, I think that the number of chromosomes of triticale and similar hybrids is the sum of the number of chromosomes in the parent stock, not the average.
Yes, it's called hybrids stabilized by polyploidy. Common in plants. The new number is (obviously) even, so there in no problem during segregation of chromosome pairs (this is what screws up gametes of some hybrids).
But this is not alwasy neccesary; many related species have the same chromosome number, so there is no problem to begin with.
Offspring fertile? (Score:4, Interesting)
And where does the infertility in mules normally lie? Is it a male thing or a female thing? Or both?
Re:Offspring fertile? (Score:1)
How do you know that these fertile mules are not able to breed with horses and/ or donkeys? If they could, it would rather be an example of our 'species' definition breaking apart.
Tor
Re: (Score:1)
Re:Offspring fertile? (Score:4, Interesting)
I looked into this when we discussed cloning Mammoths, [slashdot.org] or harvesting frozen Siberian Mammoth sperm a few months ago.
It was my impression that the very rare offspring of a mule mare and a horse sire, or a mule mare and a donkey sire, are the same species as the father. The mule has a mixture of donkey and horse chromosomes. Sperm and ovum are haploid cells -- they have one chromosome, not a pair. That is how sexual reproduction works. It was my impression that most ovum will have a mixture of horse and donkey chromosomes. But very occasionally, by chance, an ovum will have entirely horse chromosomes or donkey chromosomes.
Male mules are almost always gelded, to curb their agressiveness.
Hobbyists cross donkeys with zebras. They call the offspring "golden zebras". Hobbyists cross lions and tigers. These crosses are, apparently, a bit nuts. Lions are, of course, social. And tigers are, of course, solitary. The hybrid is drawn both ways.
The site I found about crossing cats talked about the differences between lion tiger crosses where the lion was the mother and when the tiger was the mother. When the tiger was the mother the hybrid is larger than a tiger. The maternal influence on the foal's embryonic environment has an influence on how the genotype is expressed.
Another anecdote. You can tell whether a mule's mother was a horse or a donkey by putting it in a corral that contained both donkeys and horses. The mule will go hang out with the kind of animals it was raised with.
Re:Offspring fertile? (Score:4, Funny)
Okay. That's it. That's the last time anybody on Slashdot ever gets away with saying "Building a watercooled PC rig out of Kraft Dinner and installing cold cathode lights in their hard drives? Those silly PC hobbyists have too much time on their hands!" :)
Re:Offspring fertile? (Score:4, Informative)
And where does the infertility in mules normally lie? Is it a male thing or a female thing? Or both?
The infertility arises from the fact that normally, during meiosis (the production of sex cells), like chromosomes in the diploid compliment of chromosomes (one chromosome from each parent) pair up, separate, and produce haploid daughter cells. Mules are in the awkward position of having 31 chromosomes from the donkey parent and 32 from the horse parent, giving them an odd number of chromosomes total, even though they are in a diploid state.
On the one hand this gives the mule "hybrid vigour" - it exhibits many of the desirable characteristics of each parent. On the other hand, this odd number of chromosomes poses problems for meiosis - the normal meiotic process just doesn't produce viable sex cells. (So, in answer to your question, the infertility is a male and female thing.)
The fact that the foal was born at all suggests that the mother, the father, the foal, or some combination has some manner of chromosomal aberration - an extra chromosome from one parent, or something along those lines - resulting ultimately in a viable diploid zygote.
Chromosomal aberrations often result in infertility to begin with... but lets pretend that the foal is fertile, and is able to breed with horses, donkeys, or future siblings. It's offspring will not exhibit the hybrid vigour that is observed in the mule, because the offspring will not have the characteristic compliment of horse and donkey chromosomes. And since that vigour is the reason why people breed mules in the first place, a new breed of fertile mule would not be that useful.
Geek Gets Signficant Other! (Score:1)
Dont look at me!! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Idtiot moderator. Fuckwit. (Score:1)
Geek alert.
Oh - wait. This is slashdot. Nevermind, please continue.
I have no problem with criticism. (Score:1)
Not again (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Not again (Score:1)
BTW: If mules are infertile, where do they come from? Do we have to deal with a bunch of sex-fixated donkeys out there, trying to mate with horses whenever they can? On the other hand: most mules are used in rough terrain, like moutains. If I were a horse, I'd probably agree to this as well, rather then living in total celibate. Hell, even as a human... NO! This thought goes to far... =:*)
donkey (Score:1)
Re:The dad.... (Score:1)
Re:The dad.... (Score:2)
Close.
With horses, the male is a stallion, the female is the mare. With donkeys, also known as the ass, the female is the jennet or jenny.
The hybrid of a stallion and a jenny is a "hinny".
Bat baby (Score:1, Offtopic)
"hybrids between horse and donkey, are normally infertile, due to differences between the number and structure of horse and donkey chromosomes"
Oh boy, more proof that the bat baby exists
Fertility (Score:4, Interesting)
Anyone mated mules? (Score:1)
Re:Anyone mated mules? (Score:4, Informative)
Horse mother, donkey sire - offspring is a mule. Donkey mother, horse sire - offspring is a hinny. Genetically indistinguishable from a mule. I presume the two different names predate modern genetics.
Mules are stronger, and more intelligent than horses.
Like mules, a hybrid of a zebra and a horse, or a zebra and a donkey, is infertile. Or a hybrid between any of the three species of zebra.
Fans of breeding exotic hybrids have dreamed up all kinds of "cute" names for the different crosses. Seems annoying to me.
Breeding exotic hybrids of endangered species seems very irresponsible to me. But there are people who do it. It seems to me that breeding a Liger or Tigon means you are wasting the reproductive potential of the parents. The Quagga is a recently extinct subspecies of Plains Zebra. There is a project to find Plains Zebras with the most Quagga like characteristics, and breed them, to try to restore them.
This seems like a bad idea to me too. It seems to me that it makes more sense to husband the remaing genetic heritage of the Plains Zebra.
The sixth surviving equid is the very rare Przewalskis' Horse. Extinct in the wild. 150 survive in zoos. Originally found in Mongolia. It is not too late to try to preserve this animal's genetic heritage.
I felt like putting a bullet between the eyes of (Score:1)
Re:TROLL ALERT (Score:1)
Speciation (Score:4, Interesting)
The 'infertile children' definition works pretty well, but it is not perfect. Another problematic example is that of a species of birds that live in different territories around the globe. The birds can mate with other birds in their own or in adjacent territories. In other words, the birds in the first territory can mate with those in the second territory, and those in the second with those in the third, and so on all the way around the globe - and finally the birds of the last territory can again mate with those in the first. However, it turns out that the birds cannot mate with birds several territories away. Our convenient species definition breaks apart.
Tor
Should this make me feel better... (Score:1)
Infertility explanation (Score:2, Funny)
"The donkey has 62 chromosomes (31 pairs), the horse 64 (32 pairs) and the mule and hinny each have 63 chromosomes - of which many pairs are unevenly matched. It is not just the number of chromosomes which is different in donkeys and horses, but their structure: they have developed slightly differently over evolutionary time....The donkey and horse chromosomes are almost completely unable to pair up."
It's amazing that mules turn out as well as they do. If carrying heavy packs all day and being beaten daily by a bowlegged man with whiskey breath is your idea of turning out well.
A Mule giving birth (Score:5, Funny)
Re:A Mule giving birth (Score:1)
Re:A Mule giving birth (Score:1)
yawn (Score:1)
it's happened before [the-underdogs.org]with some decent [the-underdogs.org] results.
though i haven't checked it on wine...
i think we need to encourage this sort of thing, get back to the roots, you know?
M.U.L.E. gives birth? (Score:2)
Re:M.U.L.E. gives birth? (Score:1)
A shot in the dark as to why it happened ... (Score:2)
However, this mule suffers a form of "mule Down's syndrome" - she only has 62 pairs. The father is a donkey. There is a match in the number of chromosomes.
So, what is considered a genetic disability in humans could possibly be considered a genetic advantage in mules.
Note: no science whatsoever backs this theory as far as I know
Re:A shot in the dark as to why it happened ... (Score:2)
Could you post your source for this info for the rest of us to read?
Re:A shot in the dark as to why it happened ... (Score:2)
You may note the title "A shot in the dark
It's just a wild guess. Perhaps I should have put the last sentence first.
Didn't these guys watch Jurassic Park? (Score:1)
Nature will find a way.
Possible reason it doesn't happen? (Score:2)
Re:Possible reason it doesn't happen? (Score:1)
Farmers don't have to watch where they put an infertile animal, so they'll often just stick it in the pen with the most room available.
If sex happens - hey, no problem. It's infertile, so no offspring.
so how many chromosomes does this one have (Score:2)
So how many does this baby mule have? Did it manage to end up with an odd number, or did it end up with an even number due to one of its mule parents having the mule equivilent of downs syndrome?
What's better? (Score:1)
or
(b) sex with a mare