India Plans Its Own Moon Shot 493
anzha writes: "CNN is reporting that India is planning an unmanned mission to Luna in 2007. The US, Russia (when it was the USSR), and Japan are the only nations to have done so, or so they say. For some reason, I thought that ESA, the European Space Agency, had sent one also. At any rate, while I'd like to see the Stars and Stripes posted all over the galaxy, more competition is better! So, all I have to say is, 'Go, India! Go!'" I wonder if China is still on track for 2005.
Scary. (Score:0, Insightful)
starts and stripes (Score:5, Insightful)
Ya know, I never understood this. It seems to me the the "space race" should be humankind against itself, not each country against the other. Speaking as both a citizen of both the US and the world, If India or China or anyone else reaches Mars before the US, I'll be damn proud that my race made it to Mars.
Kick *ASS* (Score:5, Insightful)
Granted, the real motivation is to demonstrate to Pakistan and China that they have missi^H^H^H^H^H launch vehicles capable of reaching escape velocity, and thus, any targe^H^H^H^H^Hlocation on the planet.
But that said - it was precisely the same showboating against the Soviets that got us to the moon.
And if the same showboating can get either India or China (or both!) to the moon, maybe they'll be able to send a few scientists along for the ride. It's Space Race, Mk. II!
I'm not naive enough to believe that this will result in a permanent manned lunar base, or any long-term exploration of the lunar surface and subsurface, but I'm at least optimistic that we [humanity] will be able to piggyback a few scientists along for the ride, and learn a few things that we couldn't easily learn with robotic missions.
It's depressing that we're still at the stage where a guy with a pick and shovel can accomplish more in five minutes on the moon's surface than any probe NASA is likely to launch in the next 50 years.
Re:Wow... (Score:0, Insightful)
Wait, no, we didn't get squat. Darn!
Sure we did. We're number one! We're number one! We're number one! GO USA!!! First nation to land humans on another celestial body. That's a fucking AMAZING accomplishment. GO USA! GO USA! GO USA!
Let's see something DONE out there (Score:5, Insightful)
Going to the moon is pretty much BFD these days, regardless of *who* does it.
What I want to see is a nation or a group of nations going to the moon for the purpose of DOING something. Not just collecting rocks or whatever the hell is usually done. Beginning mining operations, perhaps? Setting up a permanent lunar base? Off-world factories? ANYTHING!
I'd like to think we're beyond popping the hatch and poking our heads out the door, then flying back, or at least should be working that way.
Re:Wow... (Score:2, Insightful)
No?
Space program --> miniaturized electronics --> personal computers --> your ability to post drivel like that.
I'm not saying that without the space program/race/etc. of the 60's we would never invent things like personal computers and the internet, but it gave modern technology a huge boost. Without the space program I suspect that right about now we'd be looking forward to the next generation of 300-baud modems.
I applaud India's plans to invest in its future!
This news about India isn't that cool (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:PR move? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:beny fits (Score:3, Insightful)
Wouldn't have happened. Too many politicians would have taken bits and pieces of that pie. It would have been squandered making their re-elections easier.
With the moon program, there was a well-defined goal. "We're going to the Moon!" All the money necessary could be pumped straight to the space program. And not just for rockets or computers, but every aspect of supporting humans outside of Earth's atmoshpere. It also sounds much better than "We're going to produce a new technological leap in every field currently in existance, as well as invent whole new areas of development for things which we can't even imagine today!"
Re:Well... (Score:2, Insightful)
Nor did the US when Sputnik was launched.
Re:Wow... (Score:3, Insightful)
It is the nature of government to want to spend money on development of new technology, ideas, etc., perhaps as a way of improving the status of the nation, which in turn can have economic and social benefits. Maybe it is wrong to do this at the expense of the poor, but governments normally don't balance their books in such a way. Inequality in society is not just due to governments spending too much on these sorts of activity. It is about the inherent characteristics of that society and, in capitalist countries, this means big inequalities.
In principal I would prefer to see the Indian government spend more money on eradicating policy rather than reaching the moon. However, I don't think the government would see these as opposite sides of the same coin. I also think it would be a shame if scientific and technical endeavours ended within India, and many of its thinkers, scientists, etc. have contributed significantly to global knowledge.
Re:starts and stripes (Score:5, Insightful)
There's a difference?
No, I'm not trolling and I'm not being flippant. I fail to see how you can draw a line between "country vs. country" and "humanity vs. self," since countries are nothing more than a human institution.
Re:Why?? (Score:5, Insightful)
First off - $82M for a moon shot is dirt cheap. We spend that going to Mars.
Second - you answered the question yourself. $0.80 per head. (Actually, at 1B people, it's $0.08 per head.)
Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Last time I checked, even in India, that didn't buy much more than a day's worth of fish.
Force a bunch of men to learn how to go to the moon and odds are one of them will come up with something pretty neat, even if you don't give a whit for space exploration. Velcro, anyone?
To put it in historical perspective - one of the reasons you have a computer on your desk is because miniaturized electronics were required for the guidance systems of the first generation of ICBMs.
EMPs from incoming Russian nukes would fsck up any ground-based guidance communications systems, so the guidance had to be onboard the missile. Vacuum tubes were far too bulky, and weren't sturdy enough to survive launch. Even transistors were still too bulky. Solution obvious - integrated circuits, multi-layer circuit boards, and mass production.
The Minuteman II [si.edu] guidance system marked the first major production use of integrated circuits.
If the Indians can produce anything as cool by today's standards (maybe even a low-cost heavy-lift vehicle), they can make a fortune for their government by launching the rest of the world's satellites.
But no, you're right. That tech stuff never fed nobody. Let's give a billion people 8 cents' worth of fish.
The space race... (Score:4, Insightful)
The Hall of Space shows the evolution of the Space Race, from World War II (including a fully restored V2 rocket) to the modern day. But rather than being a "rah rah rah, we beat you to the M-ooon! Nyah-Nyah!" it is a very balanced portrail of just how close the race was, and just how bad the Russians were kicking our asses at first. Thus, the Russians really like the Cosmosphere, and when they are looking for a place outside their own museums to house artifacts they call the Cosmosphere first.
In the Hall of Space they make a point I've not seen made anywhere else - they point out that JFK was trying to find a means of competition between the USSR and the USA that didn't involve building large amounts of weapons, so he started the space race to "drain off" some of the competition, hoping to keep both sides working on that rather than destroying the world.
And it seems to have worked.
So in a very real way the space race was "mankind racing against itself" - racing to mature away from the need to destroy itself.
Really, if you are ever to be anywhere within 200 miles of the Cosmosphere, I urge you to go there. If you are crossing the US on either I40 or I70, then you owe yourself the side trip.
(No, I neither work for the Cosmosphere nor own any interest in it.)
If you are interested, drop me a line in my journal, and I'll give you more detailed advise.
Indian Space Program (Score:5, Insightful)
About 10 years back while I was still in Engineering college we had a great "scandal" about Russia being arm twisted by the USA to not provide India with cryogenic rocket engine technology to launch remote sensing satellites. It was feared that India would develop missile technology and perhaps ICBMs.
So the problem is this. No engine. No rocket. No satelite aka no space program. And on top of that no Crays to model simulations etc. The man who said "screw this" was Dr. Kalam. The man that threw caution to wind and aligned the bureaucratic/lazy govt agencies to do this.
- Develop an indigenous super computer
- Develop a liquid fuel rocket
- Put a satelite in orbit
Some years later CDAC [cdacindia.com] developed PARAM supercomputer [cdacindia.com] followed by ANUPAM. These inexpensive machines were put to task to solve whole bunch of vibration related problems that used to send test rockets crashing into Bay of Bengal. Quote from a news item "Likewise, the PSLV too failed on its first ever launch on September 20, 1993. The then ISRO chairman, Dr U R Rao, said this was because of a software error in the pitch control loop of the on-board guidance and control processor." There were still more problems with the re-entry stage etc.
The supercomputers enabled some new materials research and first success [flonnet.com] was almost 10 years later
PSLV (Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle). India then proceeded to deploy remote sensing satellites in orbit without depending on the French Ariane program at 1/7th the cost.
Out of this came the four Indian missiles long-range Agni (fire), medium range Akash (sky), surface-to-surface Prithvi (earth) and anti-tank Nag (cobra) and the now infamous nukes.
The satellite deployment capability bothers EU and Australia because it is clearly the loss of some "easy money". India has not yet offered satellite launching services, but for those prices even Jamaica can put a bird in the sky. At the moment ISRO toils at the GSLV [isro.org] (Geo Synchronous Launch Vehicle). So far they have not had any success. [rediff.com]
This new announcement of moon shot is exciting and a cause of concern. While India has put enough weather satellites it still is ransomed by abnormal weather patterns drought, floods et al [usatoday.com] Nonetheless it's a matter of pride or rather amazement for me to witness any govt dept doing anything straight over there. Dr. Kalam is now the president [indianembassy.org] of India. President of India is as we call a ceremonious office quite like the Queen of England. So I am sure the Hindu fanatic party leading the govt now is not any progressive but I am optimistic that a secular govt will be elected soon and our rocket man is in the right place trying to crack a tougher cookie. Maybe it's time for the land of zero, decimal and exponent to earn some Karma.
Re:Wow... (Score:5, Insightful)
And what are the other things? The proposal says that if we spend something like $16 million a year we can shoot a projectile onto the moon in five years. How does this convince you that we'll never leave the status of developing country?
Are you telling me there was no poverty or hunger or oppression in the US when their space program kicked off? I suppose no one lives in their own filth and violence out there in the US right now.
Which country has one of the highest incarceration rates out there? Which country actually make money selling prison (slave) labour to companies? Heck which country actually has a lobby that wants more prisons made because its so profitable? Which country has an incarceration rate of 3% amongst its largest minority?
And what was the state of this minority when the space program in that country was started?
So who says what the "rich people" to "people living in filth" ratio should be before a nation can start considering a space program?
The US spent money on its space program primarily because the Russians were(Sputnik, JFKs speech). They didn't want to be beaten. Pride is okay for the Americans but not for the Indians, huh?
Or perhaps India is to wait with a begging bowl for the Americans to drop in and take out technology that we might need later - perhaps when we need minerals that might be present only on the moon or certain asteroids or whatever.
Effectively what you are saying is - "We'll look after science and technology for the world. You look after your teeming millions in poverty. What use has a nation so poor for pride".
By the same argument we Indians shouldn't be spending money training atheletes. Heck whats the pride in having a few people run faster or jump higher. We could use that money to have some more people stop living in their own filth.:-7
From what I have read, the ISRO programs have spawned a whole ancillary industry for the manufacture of precision parts for aircrafts and space vehicles. This is not one or two government units but a lot of medium sized privately held companies that make parts which can be exported - which bring in revenue for our country.[Sorry I don't have a URL to back this up.] Industry that can be used to arm ourselves during the various embargoes that get thrown our way everytime we act "irresponsibly" (like the evil inherent in a third world country testing nukes :-7).
Further, the arguments here run along the lines - "There is nothing original being done here, why waste money"? To that I would give the example of people re-creating OSes. I mean what if we all listened to MSoft and believed that their OSes are good enough and that we should expend our energies elsewhere - perhaps writing apps for Windows?
A lot of the linux people do not trust MSoft (I don't) and wouldn't mind recreating technology they know they could control better and that wouldn't screw them in ways they didn't know; or would come with strings attached in contorted EULAs they had no way of understanding.
In much the same way why should/would India have to be dependent on countries that have already "done it" to be generous with their technology handouts?
Almost everyone knows the US gives out technology the same way MSoft does - for profit and to ultimately be in control. They yank things back when they want, they put restrictions when they want. Are you'll saying India has to put up with all this?
Like I said before, there might be a strong economical need to reach the stars or atleast deep space in the near future. When that happens you expect the US will be helping other countries stake their claims? I don't think so.
Indias nuclear program had nothing to do with the current government. Its been on since well before 1976. The present government simply publicly tested a few to gain political mileage or whatever.
India believes it has the resources to be as good as any nation in the world. It has also learnt that the nations of the world believe in what Rockfeller said: "Philanthropy is good, but philanthropy with profit is even better" (or something to that effect).
India thankfully doesnt have the "discipline" of the Chinese government system. Democracy is chaotic. Inspite of this we have thumbed our noses at the nay-sayers who predicted India would break up or fail like other former colonies (much smaller and more homogenous than we). For a former colony with the kind of heterogenity that we have and a political system not based on coercion we have done remarkably well.
Name another former colony thats a democracy and has fared as well as we (Thailand, SKorea maybe - but they had the Americans protecting them from the evil commies in countries to the north).
As for our caste problems and poverty I would ask you all to take a look at Kerala. Thats a classic example of what people can do if they set their minds to it. http://www.ashanet.org/library/articles/kerala.199 803.html [ashanet.org]
And sure we had problems in Gujarat but it was contained to Gujarat and there were no incidents in other states - proof that the Gujarat carnage was engineered by the political machinery of that state and not really a reflection of its people or Indias people.
All in all I support what the ISRO does and plans. Its good for our pride and its good for India.
veliath