Genetically Engineered Big-brained Mice 89
StefanJ writes "'Are you pondering what I'm pondering Pinky?' An item on MSNBC reports that researchers at Brigham and Women's Hospital and Harvard Medical School in Boston have produced mice with big, convoluted brains by inserting an single extra gene. I am reminded of two pieces of SF: Olaf Stapledon's novel Sirius, about a lab experiment that produces a brainy dog, and Bruce Sterling "Our Neural Chernobyl," in which the country is overrun with cunning coyotes and tribes of raccoons."
One small step for human kind..onegiantleapfordogs (Score:2, Funny)
I wouldn't mind a smarter dog...
*From Cowboy Bebop
Re:One small step for human kind..onegiantleapford (Score:2)
Of course, it might then also be smart enough to be a real pain in the ass.
Re:One small step for human kind..onegiantleapford (Score:1)
Reminds me of... (Score:1, Offtopic)
Why were they killed? (Score:3, Funny)
Um, why did they do that? Did the scientists just give the mice an X-ray and say "OMG THESE MOUSES ARE SO FREEKIN SMART EWWWWWWW I DONT WANT SMARTY-SMART MICE SQUISH IT SQUISH IT SQUISH IT!!!!!!!!!!!" and then they all stood on top of lab chairs waiting for their spouses to squish the brainy mice, (but of course they had to settle for the building custodian)?
Look, I'm just guessing, okay?
Re:Why were they killed? (Score:4, Informative)
That's what's so frustrating about medical imaging technology. It's advanced enough to show what the brain looks like in the skull while the organism is still living, but you don't have a real good way of looking at the very fine structure without dissecting the brain. But, the things that's important to these researchers is what's happening at the cellular level. They want to know how the cells are qualitatively and quantitaively different. For that kind of analysis, they need cells, and a whole lot of 'em to get batches of cell stuff they can measure. My wife does this kind of work and it's amazing what they have to do in order to measure some of these chemicals and cell components.
Re:Why were they killed? (Score:1)
Does anyone know why they were killed? Was the experiment planned to work out that way? Even if so, you think they could be a bit more flexible and at least IQ test some of the mice.
Re:Why were they killed? (Score:1)
Re:Why were they killed? (Score:1)
My Guess -- Overheard at ACME Labs:
B: Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?
P: Yes Brain, but where will we find rubber pants our size?
B: No Pinky, If I disguise myself as a claymation construction worker, we can create our own internationally syndicated children's TV show. We'll become hugely popular and all the kids will worship us. Thence, we will taKe OvER tHE WORLD!
P: Naaaaaaarf! Poit! Brilliant!....No wait, um.....One Thing Brain. Where are we going to find little ballet slippers for all the camera men?
Re:Why were they killed? (Score:4, Informative)
Is the beta-catenin really being overexpressed ?
By how much?
In which neurons?
Has the expression of other proteins been altered too?
To answer these kinds of questions, you need to stain thin slices of the brains or grind up the brains.
-margaret
Re: Why were they killed? (Score:1)
> from MSNBC: IT IS NOT yet clear whether the mice are smarter -- they were all killed soon after birth
> Um, why did they do that?
They caught them trying to take over the world.
Mice may have died, rather than have been killed (Score:2)
After taking a look around Sciene Magazine's Website [sciencemag.org], I found a quote on their Science Now which is worded a little bit differently:
"The mice died soon after birth, so the researchers do not know how the bigger brains would affect their behavior"
This seems to suggest that the mice weren't euthanized -- instead, the modification itself was lethal. However, I couldn't find any confirmation of this in the text of the paper itself (Also on Science's website, requires subscription, though). The gene studied here, B-catenin, is expressed in numerous tissues throughout the developmental process, so I'd be a little surprised if such a major change yielded a viable organism.
Re:not such a good idea (Score:3, Insightful)
Imagine for a moment (Score:1)
At the very least we would not have to put up with so many stupid ones.
oops (Score:1)
What good it would do to have SMARTER PEOPLE!
At the very least we would not have to put up with so many stupid ones.
Re:not such a good idea (Score:1)
Well, there's that bit in the bible (genesis) about how god made man from dirt in one day. So all the talk about man evolving over millions of years from "lesser" animals kinda contradicts that part.
Prayer has no place in the public schools, just like facts have no place in organized religion. - Superintendent Chalmers
"An upstart astrologer...This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth." - Martin Luther on Copernicus
So anyways, back to the mice...
Big brains, eh?
Re:All I can think of is.... (Score:1)
You mean Lawnmower Man? (Score:1)
Re:You mean Lawnmower Man? (Score:1)
Flowers for Algernon (or the movie Charly which followed the plot amazingly well, a rarity in the SF movie world) is a realistic tragedy about a mentally retarded man who volunteers for an experiment, becomes a genius, then painfully has to watch his own bright new mind revert to retardation. It's well-plotted, character-driven, and highly believable, thoroughly deserving of the awards heaped upon it.
Lawnmower Man (the movie, which bears no resemblance to the print story other than they're both examples of King at his laziest) is a tale of a mentally retarded man who somehow (never mind how, exactly) becomes a god in virtual reality and never reverts. The plot is lame and largely designed to justify CGI budget, the characters are cardboard cutouts, and it's about as believable as Tron.
Same story? Not even close. Phenomenon is much closer, if you want a more recent flick than Charly.
Just imagine... (Score:3, Funny)
If they gave this to a dolphin or a whale which already have larger brains than us, but presumably don't have our overabundance of the magic protein.
Or our nearest neighbors like chimps and gorillas... Though I think it would be more interesting to give it exclusively to Bonobos, they'd probably write some interesting erotica
Re:Just imagine... (Score:1)
*Flashbacks of planet of the apes*
Re:Just imagine... (Score:2)
Exactamundo! Even if we do cause the planet to implode eventually, we had a good run. If we're really clever, we'll eventually manage to learn to control the environment well enough to fix most of the problems we've made. Either that or we'll figure out how to get the hell off this rock and make our way to another one that we can start over with. Except we'll already have a huge head start experience and technology-wise.
Re:Just imagine... (Score:1)
Re:Just imagine... (Score:1)
Or George W. Bush
Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH (Score:1)
Re:Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of NIMH (Score:1)
Or "The Amazing Maurice And His Educated Rodents" (Score:1)
Note that this isn't entirely off-topic. Although the book is a fantasy marketed toward teens and pre-teens, it actually addresses many issues in AI, animal rights, ethics, religion and bioengineering. Of course, if you've read other Discworld novels, you would know that already...
What was it's name? (Score:2)
In other news...
A pastry factory custodian's brain was doubled in size by the insertion of an extra gene. He's reported to be in good spirits, and looks forward to a full life of intelligence and happiness.
Re:What was it's name? (Score:1)
Re:What was it's name? (Score:1)
I don't have the links but the IMDB probably lists it. Good book, but I thought the movie was so-so.
Re:What was it's name? (Score:2)
Re:What was it's name? (Score:2)
Jeeze yourself.
Re:What was it's name? (Score:2)
It was a joke...
Re:What was it's name? (Score:2)
Manic Mice (Score:4, Funny)
Luckily they were able to calm down the miscreant with a piece of cheese, and lured him far enough away from the researcher to turn him into a bloody splot on the (otherwise spotlessly clean linolium) floor.
Back to you Bob.
Yet Another Reference (Score:2)
A short story about hyperintelligent mice. OK, they were bred --- we didn't have DNA manipulation in '54, and for that matter the discovery of DNA was only in the near-future.
The story's worth reading all the way through at least once.
Re:Yet Another Reference (Score:2)
This only got the section page (Score:2, Insightful)
EDITORS: WHY ISN'T THIS FP!
Maybe you should double-check with other editors to make sure stories are where they belong.
Re:This only got the section page (Score:2)
Re:This only got the section page (Score:2)
(yes, that was intentional)
Re:This only got the section page (Score:2)
Rescaled images (Score:3, Interesting)
The researchers genetically altered the brain cells, but not bone growth - so I wonder whether the increased folding is a response to being crammed into a cranial cavity that is too small.
please not now (Score:3, Funny)
First it was H1B's from India, Pakistan, and China. Now we have to compete with smart mice also.
Shudduv been a dentist like Mom warned.
Re:please not now (Score:2)
First it was H1B's from India, Pakistan, and China. Now we have to compete with smart mice also.
Shudduv been a dentist like Mom warned.
Sounds like someone doesn't like having his cheese [amazon.com] moved.
eh, unlikely to be smarter (Score:3, Interesting)
Quick! Kill those mice before they build the death ray to destroy us!
Re:eh, unlikely to be smarter (Score:2)
It could be that evolution DID "create" brainy mice at one point, but that the metabolic cost outweighed the advantages.
Or: The brains might have given an advantage, but the mice didn't live long enough for it to make a difference.
Re:eh, unlikely to be smarter (Score:2)
Re:eh, unlikely to be smarter (Score:1)
Alse, if this gene were not at all dominant, then it would probably not be included in the offspring.
Watch out... (Score:1)
Head for the hills, the Vorgons are coming!!
of mice and men (Score:1, Offtopic)
Re:of mice and men (Score:2)
Mrs. Frisby, anyone? (Score:1)
The movie even has curse words, deaths, and a psychedelic sequence of rats undergoing DNA mutation. Gotta love Don Bluth back when he was good.
Spielberg knew ... (Score:1)
Pinky: "Gee Brain, what are we going to do tonight?"
Brain: "what we do every night - try to take over the world!"
full story (Score:1)
Arthur always was a little confused about the mice (Score:4, Funny)
Only one word registered with Arthur.
"Mice?" he said.
"Indeed Earthman."
"Look, sorry - are we talking about the little white furry things with the cheese fixation and women standing on tables screaming in early sixties sit coms?"
Slartibartfast coughed politely.
"Earthman," he said, "it is sometimes hard to follow your mode of speech. Remember I have been asleep inside this planet of Magrathea for five million years and know little of these early sixties sit coms of which you speak. These creatures you call mice, you see, they are not quite as they appear. They are merely the protrusion into our dimension of vast hyperintelligent pan- dimensional beings. The whole business with the cheese and the squeaking is just a front."
The old man paused, and with a sympathetic frown continued.
"They've been experimenting on you I'm afraid."
Arthur thought about this for a second, and then his face cleared.
"Ah no," he said, "I see the source of the misunderstanding now. No, look you see, what happened was that we used to do experiments on them. They were often used in behavioural research, Pavlov and all that sort of stuff. So what happened was that the mice would be set all sorts of tests, learning to ring bells, run around mazes and things so that the whole nature of the learning process could be examined. From our observations of their behaviour we were able to learn all sorts of things about our own
Arthur's voice tailed off.
"Such subtlety
"What?" said Arthur.
"How better to disguise their real natures, and how better to guide your thinking. Suddenly running down a maze the wrong way, eating the wrong bit of cheese, unexpectedly dropping dead of myxomatosis, - if it's finely calculated the cumulative effect is enormous."
He paused for effect.
"You see, Earthman, they really are particularly clever hyperintelligent pan-dimensional beings. Your planet and people have formed the matrix of an organic computer running a ten-million-year research programme
"Let me tell you the whole story. It'll take a little time."
"Time," said Arthur weakly, "is not currently one of my problems."
Re:Arthur always was a little confused about the m (Score:1)
Pinky and the Brain (Score:2)
Pinky and the Brain:
One is a genuis,
The other's insane;
They'll overthrow the earth,
They'll rule with all their worth;
They're Pinky,
They're Pinky and the Brain
Brain Brain Brain Brain
Dun dun.
LOL. Ok, but seriously, this is interesting. More interesting than seeing if mice can play chess or learn to read, is if this same technique can be applied on humans pre-birth, and if genetic engineering via virus-vectors could be used to apply it to the already-living (not just the unborn).
Mr. Ages, anyone? (Score:1)
In my opinion, the book is vastly supirior to the movie of the same name.
Mrs. Frisby and the Rats of Nimh [kokogiak.com]
This is what really happened (Score:1)
Fractal? (Score:1)
An extra gene? (Score:1)
Huh, and I always thought it was exposure to Chemical X that caused brains to double in size.
Oh well, at least this way is safer. The Chemical X route always seems to produce mad geniuses intent on taking over Townsville (when applied to primates, at any rate).
And the topic of the day is... MDMA! (Score:1)
Huh, and I always thought it was exposure to Chemical X that caused brains to double in size.
Chemical X is apparently Ecstasy [kuro5hin.org]. I wonder what 'X' really does to human foetuses.
From the article.. (Score:2)
Squashed... is that a medical term? (:
I have to say it (Score:1)
Re:I have to say it (Score:1)
Doesn't Anyone Remember... (Score:1)
If the brains don't fit, try thinkgeek! (Score:1)
LED Binary Clock
Check out this desktop binary timepiece. After a few minutes, you'll be able to read it right away while your friends and family stare in awe at your massive craniums...