8128 miles Per (US) Gallon 155
idletask writes: "Yes, you read well. This is the new record established this year in the Shell International Mileage Marathon (NOTE: English link, their figures are calculated using UK gallons), held this year on June 1st and 2nd on the Circuit of Nogaro, by a team from Université Paul Sabatier in Toulouse, France. This yearly
contest, sponsored by Shell since 1977, consists in travelling the longest distance with only one liter of gas (the record is therefore actually 3494km with 1 liter), at a minimum pace of 25kph (~15mph). Full results of the contest can be found in a PDF file. The only US team who participated this year scored 69th, with 1136mpg (483km with 1l)."
Go U.S.! (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, but the US team's Sport Utility Test Vehicle pulled an ultralight trailer with a teeny boat on it.
Test Car Photos (Score:2)
Sport Utility Test Vehicle pulled an ultralight trailer with a teeny boat on it.
[grin]
Did you see how tiny these silly things are?
If I had one of these things kicking around the garage, I'd probably accidentally end up using it as a tire chock for my 1976 Dodge Ram.
Measurements (Score:5, Funny)
Simply put, 483km/1L is 1.2425 x 10^-6 earth-moon distances per cubic centimeter of fuel. I think that puts in it perspective
Re:Measurements (Score:1)
Re:Measurements (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Measurements (Score:1)
Re:Measurements (Score:1)
Simply put, 483km/1L is 1.2425 x 10^-6 earth-moon distances per cubic centimeter of fuel. I think that puts in it perspective
but how many library of congresses is it!?!?
Re:Measurements (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Measurements (Score:2, Funny)
King Arthur: Europian or American?
Guardian: What? I don't know *screams as he is flung into the abyss*
Re:Measurements (Score:2)
Re:Measurements (Score:1)
Physics horror stories (Score:2)
I remember on one midterm being asked to convert a measurement in miles per gallon into "furlongs per fortnight" which is pretty easy if you know that a god damn furlong is 220 yards, and a fortnight is 2 weeks. Needless to say furlong was *not* among the unit conversions I had choosen to memorize.
Bonus points if you can convert furlongs per fornight into granpa simpsons "rods per hoghead" (40 rods in one furlong)
Although to this day I still remember the conversion for furlongs, I think what I really learned in that course is not to take classes from assholes
Re:Physics horror stories (Score:2)
You'd still need a conversion for gallons to weeks, unless you meant to say "miles per hour into furlongs per fortnight".
Re:Physics horror stories (Score:2)
Ummm (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Ummm (Score:3, Interesting)
"only" 483km with 1l (Score:2)
As a European, why doesn't that surprise me?
Hmmm. The US "gas" would still cost approximately the same as the UK "gas" per km.
Re:"only" 483km with 1l (Score:1)
Re:"only" 483km with 1l (Score:2)
Because, as a European... (Score:1, Flamebait)
This is a cool European engineering competition with about the same level of practical significance for US transportation problems that battle robots competitions have for US manufacturing. Maybe more than zero, but not much.
But, as a European, you're not required to think about an issue beyond the point where you think you've found a way to employ it in the service of proving your superiority to Americans. You're not likely to want to, either, because often the deeper you go the less superior to Americans you might feel, and European self-esteem seems to be on such thin ice as it is.
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2, Flamebait)
I own a car in California that does 28 miles to the gallon (after conversion to UK sized units) and that was actually adevertised as being extremely efficient. My car in the UK does 34 miles to the gallon and no one there would consider that to be particularly efficient.
Don't even get me started on the amount of electricity that gets needlessly wasted in California. But it's cheap, right? And I won't be on this planet in 80 years time, right?
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:1, Offtopic)
The fact that very few Us teams entered a EUROPEAN contest says very little.
I own a car in Georgia, and it gets 42 miles to the gallon, andit is considered pretty efficient, but I miss your point.
I'm sorry, that is incorrect. You must state your post in the form of a reasonably intelligent statement (not just a bunch of random thoughts that occured to you.)
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
Yes, that is one reason. Another reason is that the European consumers care about pumping the environment full of CO2.
The fact that very few Us teams entered a EUROPEAN contest says very little.
I don't dispute that. My comments, generally, say very little too.
I own a car in Georgia, and it gets 42 miles to the gallon, andit is considered pretty efficient, but I miss your point.
My point being that the subjective view of what is considered efficient is warped somewhere mid-atlantic.
I'm sorry, that is incorrect.
Presuming that you refer to the final paragraph of my post, then no - it is not incorrect.
You must state your post in the form of a reasonably intelligent statement (not just a bunch of random thoughts that occured to you.)
What on the slashdot forums? (Actually I believed, and still do, that that comment was very relevent to the thread)
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:1)
Maybe you should stop breathing then...
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
So you must only care about the environment when you are in Europe? You don't seem to care in America.
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
I could have bought a huge SUV or truck, but I chose not to (of course, many people need those but many more, like me, don't). Regardless, I walk, bike or catch a bus to work everyday instead of driving. I consider myself to be responsible member of this _global_ society; for example, I expend considerable effort to recycle my garbage which, believe me, is not easy around here. Maybe other parts of the US are different?
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
There is no reason to beleive that European consumers are more thoughtfulthan Americans, especially because our consumer cultures are nearly identical. I do not deny our cultural imperialism or incredible ethnocentrism, but I fail to see how our environmental defects reflect this.
No, I was not referring to the final paragraph of your post, I was in fact parodizing a well known television show, named Jeopardy.
The randomness I referred to isn't referring to the relevance, but the degree of organization and coherence.
I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul.
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
We will have to continue to disagree on that point then. (And I disagree strongly. Just look at the amount of environmental activism in Northern Europe and compare that to the US).
No, I was not referring to the final paragraph of your post, I was in fact parodizing a well known television show, named Jeopardy.
Oh. I've never watched that.
The randomness I referred to isn't referring to the relevance, but the degree of organization and coherence.
Okay, fair enough. I have a habit of making what appear to me to be obvious jumps.
Anyway, I'd better go and celebrate the US independance from the British now
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:1, Flamebait)
And what stereotype were you offering further proof of? That "Americans (as a generalisation) don't care about the environment". Your evidence? That *you*, a European, own a lower gas mileage car in America than you own in Europe. So, if an American stole money in Paris but not in New York, would that be further proof that Europeans were thieves?
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
No, my little anecdote was highlighting the undeniable fact that what consitutes an efficient car is not considered equally in Europe and the US.
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
I think we both believed what we said, but we also both earned our "Flamebait" mod points.
I want to add that though I believe the things I said, those aren't my only beliefs. I've lived and worked in many countries and have seen with my own eyes that great ideas and smart, talented people are widely, if not quite evenly, distributed around the world.
It's obvious to me that all countries have a lot to learn from other countries, and this absolutely includes Americans having a lot to learn from Europeans (lumping Brits, for better or worse, into the latter category.)
I assure you that I spend a great deal more time recommending to my fellow Americans that they pay more attention to ideas from Europe (and elsewhere) than I spend in debates with Europeans such as this one.
I also like Europeans, in general. I've worked in Europe, and will happily do so again, and even here in the US I work in a department with three Europeans for every American. I like that.
Frankly, though, there's an impediment when trying to persuade Americans to pay more attention to Europe that I don't face when trying to get them to pay more attention to Japan, for example. That is that the European ideas are so often presented to us as "further proof of our European moral and intellectual superiority to you disgusting Americans", while the Japanese ideas tend to be presented as "here's how we're solving this problem".
In the former case, we have to wonder how much credibility to give the idea, given that clearly some part of the goal of the presenters isn't to help us solve a problem but to gain some sort of competitive advantage over us, even something as petty as "see, Europeans good, Americans bad".
Nevertheless, there are just too many good ideas and smart people (and people I like) in Europe for me to stop paying attention, and I'll continue to make that point to my fellow Americans.
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
Indeed.
Before I respond further, I would like to reiterate the fact that my very first comment "As a European, why doesn't that surprise me?" was refering to the genuine belief in Europe, rightly or wrongly, that Americans drive huge gas-guzzling monster vehicles. It wasn't intended as a dig at the US or its peoples. To be honest, I found your initial reply to that email fairly offencive. But moving on...
I work in a department with three Europeans for every American. I like that.
I work with 3 Asians for every American. I would like that if I could convince them to drink some beer
That is that the European ideas are so often presented to us as "further proof of our European moral and intellectual superiority to you disgusting Americans", while the Japanese ideas tend to be presented as "here's how we're solving this problem".
This is a cultural issue. Us Europeans use this tone even when (or maybe especially when?) debating within the European communities.
When discussing Americans, the word "disgusting" should probably be replaced by "selfish" to make it correlate with the honest opinion of an average Briton. Of course, this is nothing more than a gross stereotype. Unfortunately for the US, there are significant issues with outsider's opinions of it. This is a important problem since the US is now the world's dominant super-power. My belief that these opinions stem from (a) the selfish political behaviour of the US (i.e. the Kyoto agreement) (b) the disdain seemingly-exhibited by the American people for anyone that has morals or culture which are considered non-American.
Now this discussion is definitely far far offtopic!!! So I'll just say that I like the US and its peoples, even if I do not like the way that it is currently screwing with the planet. Likewise, I like the Europeans, even if the British are stuck up their own arses and the French smell of garlic
PS All Americans drive inefficient vehicles.
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:1)
My first proof would be looking at the approxiamtely once/week story on either national or local news about the latest crash tests of some vehicle, and the fact that many adds actually state a safety rating.
Now, if gas were a lot more expensive, maybe this would begin to take a backseat to fuel efficiency. However, as safety standards are now, many of the "ultra-efficient" european cars are not even road-safe for the US.
When I was in Italy (which is how I know that US drivers are not the worst), I really thought some of the micro and mini and Smart cars were great. I even looked into buying one and getting it shipped. However, the amount of modifications needed to make it pass the lowest safety standards pretty much doubled the cost of the vehicle. Also, I got to thinking that driving it next to LandCruisers would soon be a source of nightmares.
So, no, American cars don't get good gas milage, but it isn't necessarily because Americans want to spend money to use gas.
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:1)
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:2)
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:1)
European safety is in many ways far tougher than in the US - the Smart Car you mention is probably the safest small car in the world [smartcarofamerica.com] - if crushed it would probably stand up better than many larger vehicles.
If you import a car from the US to the UK it will have to pass an SVA [dft.gov.uk] test. I have been told that there are some vehicles sold new in the US that have no hope of passing the SVA without costly modifications (and we're not talking amber tail-lights here - major brake modifications!) Apparently even the emblems on the hood of some Limos are too *tall* to pass, though you could remove it for the test and re-fit it afterwards!
Gareth
Re:Because, as a European... (Score:1)
There are also some standards in other countries that are recognised as being sufficiently similar to those that apply in Europe, such as the safety standards that apply in the United States, Canada and Australia.
So I am not convinced of your claim yet. Also, appearances, although deceiving, are important, and that Smart car will never look 'safer' as compared to an SUV tank. And exactly why isn't the Smart car in the US yet?
I was looking for the standards that US cars don't necessarily meet, and the only ones I found were the theft deterrence (optional in US), and the side impact protection (I'm guessing side impact airbags, also optional in US).
As a friend mentioned, the other reason for small, and thus more efficient, cars in Europe is the smaller and narrow streets of so many towns. I don't think one SUV would fit through some of those lanes, let alone 2.
Selfish Americans... (Score:1)
Now what I want to know is, why do Americans take themselves so seriously? Is it genetic or cultural?
Re:Selfish Americans... (Score:2)
I particularly liked how you pointed out the definition or per capita
Is it genetic or cultural?
Definitely cultural.
Huge America (apples and oranges) (Score:2)
On top of this, America accounts for a huge amount of the world's industrial production. A great deal of that energy is actually being used for something. While I will not argue that the USA couldn't do quite a bit to increase efficiency in all parts of the economy (just about everything I've tried to check in depth makes it appear that 2x is quite realistic for most applications not involving direct conversion of electricity to heat), there are excellent reasons why the USA is always going to have higher energy consumption per-capita than the "good folks" of Europe even if they are employing the same technologies just as well.
Re:Huge America (apples and oranges) (Score:2)
Re:Selfish Americans... (Score:2)
(2) The US is huge. You don't understand it unless you have lived here...in particular the west. I have driven 43 miles today already and I still have not gone home from work. That is driving to work and two errands. Why don't I take public transportation? It would add two hours to my day. I already work 8-10 hours per day, with only two weeks off a year. Another 2 hours I cannot handle. Perhaps if I had a 30 hour work week and 1-2 months of vacation I would feel differently, but the extra fuel is nothing to me if it allows me another two hours of life per day.
(3) The dense US cities are much more efficent, because everything is close by, like Europe. Also, it is 38C where I am right now. That's bloody hot. That means I run my air conditioner. If it never got over 25C I could save a lot of energy, but it does not work that way here.
(4) Citizens of the US are not of one genetic group. We are comprised of people from nations and cultures all over the world...I am surprised you don't know that. But for the last 20-or-so years we keep hearing "you are Americans, therefore you are, by definition, violent and bad." I find this amusing from Europe, who did their best to self destruct not once but twice in the last century....one duke gets shot so you decide to kill 8.5 million people to make up for it.
(5) The US does need to work on its energy use, I agree. But Europe is poisoning the environment as well. How many major rivers have US companies killed in the last ten years...easy, Zero. Europe has destroyed all life in TWO major rivers in the same time span. Long after the US realized how terrible above-ground and ocean nuclear testing was, France did not give a damn about detonating their bombs wherever they please. Although I am an anglophile, the British have poisoned entire islands with experimental weapons. So there is PLENTY of environmental blame to go around.
What's country got to do with it? (Score:1)
As a European, why doesn't that surprise me?
As an American, why should it? Statistically, we were right in the middle of the curve with our one entry. There were 114 other teams in the competition, most from France (who also came in last).
Did you mean to infer that Europeans are good at statistics?
Re:What's country got to do with it? (Score:1, Flamebait)
(PS Neither Europe nor America are countries)
Re:What's country got to do with it? (Score:2)
By the way, since Europe is a continent, England cannot truly be considered a part of the continent, since any peices of its' empire that is on the continent, are now no longer part of "the British Empire."
Sorry, you lose (the American revolutionary war, specifically.)
Re:What's country got to do with it? (Score:1)
I do believe you forgot.... (Score:1)
Re:Jingoist Europeans (Score:3, Interesting)
I am not sure the source, but a lot of it probably comes from the 'US first attitude', that is portrayed by both national USA news and international news. What ever you might feel about Bush, much of his international politics is seen, from outside countries, as being a very naive and selfish.
Another difference is probably the fact that most European countries share a certain social agenda, whereby the good of the people is just as important as the good of corporation. In the US, its dog eat dog, though this is what allows the US to advance so much faster.
There is no country that does not have a certain arrogance when it comes to national pride. Like a ship, the larger tanker's errors will always be noticed more, and have a larger effect, than the small sail ship's in the same waters. For this reason the larger ship has to be more careful about errors it makes, if it isn't then the small sailing ships see the large tanker as being a bully, and arrogant towards it neighbours, in the pond. This is the way things are, like it or not.
Re:Jingoist Europeans (Score:2)
You don't have low mileage cars because you care about the evironment. You do because your socialist governments tax gas to $4.00.
A warning to non-AC posters. (Score:2)
I'm now being personally attacked, off-forum, as some kind of anti-American zealot. As someone that made the choice to move to the US, that's something that I am definitely not.
In Europe, and probably elsewhere, American cars have a reputation for being gas-guzzlers. Live with it.
I finished my post with a dig at the price of fuel in the UK. I notice that none of the British took particular offence to that.
Pro-american bias... (Score:1)
I hate the pro-American bias in Slashdot...but maybe it's just because many, many more Americans post on this than other countries, and so the blindly patriotic are more represented. It's not the ACs that piss me off (easily blocked) but the people with karma (how can they be so misinformed?)...
But I also suspect it is part of the American psyche to be insecure about the status of your nation (why else would they be so defensive?).
When it gets to the point where you can't state simple facts about America without getting attacked off-forum... that's sad and disturbing.
Are there "international" slashdot-like sites?
Maybe there should be an option on slashdot preferences to automatically block out posts from people from national domains for certain topics which are "sensitive" to people from those countries.
Anyhow, awaiting the onslaught...
Re:Pro-american bias... (Score:2)
Slashdot is in the US. Many, if not the majority of the users are American. Well, maybe not most, but I'm sure there are more users from the US than any other country. That doesn't mean it should be US-centric, but that's the way it is.
You are right, often stating facts that make the US look bad in comparison to other countries will result in people flipping out. I think one reason is maybe that americans tend to think of Europeans as stuck up, and may think they're using those facts to just make themselves look better. As to your american psyche thing, I think it's more that sometimes the facts are wrong. Much like as someone pointed out that BTU/GNP is a much more meaningful measure. As for americans getting defensive, maybe it's because it often appears that the europeans (well, not just the europeans) are quick to point out those facts, as if they're the ones who are insecure and need the reassuring. Anyway, I think it just comes down to a "culture clash" of sorts, with misunderstandings on both sides.
A warning... about sloganeering (Score:2)
I've been talking up the need for increased fuel taxes as a way to discourage consumption for over a decade. You can see how much progress I've made.
Re:A warning... about sloganeering (Score:2)
Re:"only" 483km with 1l (my $0.02) (Score:2)
The reason many Americans are so sensitive is that we get tired of hearing that we are all rotten people who sit around all evening being violent while the cultured Europeans save the earth.
That being said, I know what you meant in your message. And you are correct that many people are hypersensitive, but in multi-national forums I have frequently been attacked...posters saying things like "as an American, you know nothing about x", where x has been everything from the history of World War I to computer technology.
I get really tired of being told that all Americans are lazy, stupid, uneducated, fat and rich. I work hard, I have degrees in Electrical Engineering, Anthropology, Computer Engineering and a minor in Chemistry. I know about history and I don't like Football of any sort. I don't like violent action films, I know my wines and can have an intelligent conversation about the history of Bath, if required.
So that's the nerve even a well-intentioned poster like you can hit. Remember though the problem of text-only postings where people can't tell your comment may have been some ironic humor...and many of the people flaming you are the "14 year old slashdotters" who have chased many of us from this forum...I only rarely post now.
BUT, that being said there is a tendancy that anytime there is a case where a European country does something better (or different) than the US, there seems to be a flurry of slashdot posts along the lines of "What do you expect from a stupid American anyway".
This post is pointless, 'cause nobody will read it. But I fell better anyway.
1136mpg (Score:3, Funny)
typical US gas gusler
Lack of information (Score:3, Insightful)
Does anyone have any actual information about this contest? Much as I trust
Re:Lack of information (Score:2)
Re:Lack of information (Score:4, Informative)
A few links in, there's more information. Here are the contest rules:
http://www.shef.ac.uk/~mms/rules.html [shef.ac.uk]
They have to do 6 laps of a 1.64 mile course with a minimum _average_ speed of 15 miles per hour. The vehicle with the lowest fuel consumption wins.
The vehicles have people in them, which puts a lower limit on their size. Engine technology can be anything that qualifies as a heat engine and runs on unleaded gasoline.
Re:Lack of information (Score:2)
Re:Lack of information (Score:1)
No, but I doubt they've substantially changed the rules.
Re:Lack of information (Score:2)
I'm not saying that it hasn't, but I couldn't find any evidence of it at the links we were given. Hence my question.
To put it another way:
Where's the links to the timely information regarding this news item?
You forgot to mention... (Score:2, Insightful)
Not so impressive now, is it?
Re:You forgot to mention... (Score:2)
More info (Score:4, Informative)
The most fuel efficient car you can get in the US is still the Hybrid Electtric Honda Insight [dmoz.org]. I have about 63 mpg average over the two years that I've had mine.
Not entirely correct. (Score:2)
So if you are calculating based on carrying capacity you are incorrect, the Honda isn't the most fuel efficient.
If you are just going by mpg without any other caveats, the Solectrica and EV-1 have you beat because they are pure electrics and use no gas.
On the other hand, Honda's new hybrid (based on the same technology) will probably be an even better family car than the Prius because of Honda's excellent CVCC gas engine technology. Go Honda!
Re:Not entirely correct. (Score:2)
Yes, you can tweak the numbers to look at passenger-mpg, but that's going beyond the bounds of what the EPA can test and report. Fact is, most cars on the highway are driven just with 1, maybe 2 passengers per vehicle, no matter their occupancy rating. And last I checked, you couldn't use a pet to get into HOV lanes :)
Pure electrics probably don't use "gas," but they may or may not use oil, natural gas, or have other impacts, depending on where the electricity comes from. Additionally, you can't even buy an EV-1, it's strictly for leasing. Another caveat.
Anyway, we (I drive an Insight as well when I'm not riding my bike) are doing much better than typical America, so pats on the back all 'round.
Re:Not entirely correct. (Score:2)
If you want to do it based on capacity, a standard diesel bus gets 3.5 MPG and seats over 45. That beats the Insight in PMPG (people miles per gallon).
My Civic Si does gets fewer PMPG than all three, but it's a lot more fun to drive and 124 PMPG isn't bad.
Re:Not entirely correct. (Score:1)
And how are you supposed to trick out a hybrid engine ? Replace the stock wiring with gold-plated heavy-gauge 1000-strand cable ? Upgrade the batteries to something with more power output ? Overclock the engine mgmt cpu ? I feel more at home talking about fuel-to-air ratios, forced air intakes and rebored shafts; let's not forget NOS
The bottom line is : some people want a car to take them places, others want a car to _drive_.
NimH will be recycled, not disposed of. (Score:1)
Don't know about the Honda, but my Prius uses NimH not NiCad. And believe me, they will get reconditioned/recycled - the pack is large enough to make it economically worthwhile.
The VW super-diesels are not available in the USA yet. But you are right, with bio-diesel they rock.
Re:Not entirely correct. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Not entirely correct. (Score:2)
Re:Not entirely correct. (Score:2)
complex
Yes but... (Score:3, Informative)
EPA ratings, much like ISO ratings, reflect close-to-perfect usage conditions (flat roads, constant speed etc). They are far from reflecting everyday use where you have to slow down/accelerate/etc constantly. And then again there are curves/uphills/etc. I doubt any of the cars you have listed actually score their listed mileages in everyday use. As a matter of fact, most reviews of the Prius (sold here in Europe, unlike the Insight) score it at 35-40mpg rather than the listed 48mpg EPA rating.
Which is where modern Diesel engines take a clear lead: accelerations don't require as much energy as gas engines require. The reason is that Diesel engines spot a much higher torque. Provided that you don't drive hard, you can be sure that VW's TDIs announced mileages WILL be what you actually consume. And if you drive hard, the mileage of a Diesel engine will decrease far less steadily than with a gas engine as well, always because of superior torque. The same goes on if you carry more passengers than yourself alone.
Just for information, I'm the (very) lucky owner of a BMW 330d [motorbar.co.uk] (WARNING - UK gallons! Following figures are calculated using US gallons though). Cruising at 60mph, mileage is 41mpg, whether the road be flat or not. Cruising at 75mph, mileage "drops" to 35mpg - and this is not surprising if you consider that at both of these speeds, the engine provides its full torque of 288(!) lbft (~1800rpm at 60mph, ~2100rpm at 75mph), and full torque means best fuel efficiency. Not bad for an engine which spots 183hp and has a 3l displacement, eh? (and the car weighs 1.6 ton!)
Another example: a friend of mine owns a Skoda Fabia TDI 100 (a VW TDI, since Skoda is owned by VW - 100hp, 180 lbft torque, 1.9l displacement, 1 ton) (sorry, couldn't find an online review). We swapped cars on a WE just for fun and I wanted to see how well the TDI performed... 46mpg at 60mph and 39mpg at 75mph (yes, greater gap here, but unlike the BMW 3l engine, the TDI isn't on its max torque curve at 75mph).
And as an added bonus, both of these cars are enjoyable to drive. This is not so the case with, say, the Prius (which is available in EU, unlike the Insight). Again, thanks to the torque.
There are still two weak points with the Diesel engines, though, but these are being addressed. Technologies exist and will make inroads into the EU market in the next 3 years:
Of course, ultimately, fuel cells will replace Diesel and gas engines altogether, but it will be a good 10+ years before it gets viable (both cost-wise and reliability-wise). Both of the technologies above exist today and are [already on/close to make inroads into] the consumer market. Also consider that car manufacturers, by 2005, will have to obey "depollution" norms in EU which basically require engines to have a global mileage equal or better than 45mpg. Whatever the technology employed.
Re:Yes but... (Score:2)
Yes of course, YMMV. However I've found that "reviews" of mileage on the hybrids are from test tracks, which don't reflect most people's everyday driving. A mileage database [insightcentral.net] of 172 Insight owners finds that people get mileage within about 5% of the EPA combined rating. I personally do much better. My suspicion is that many car owners could do better if their car simply recorded/reported MPG to them.
Also, the EPA "city" test cycle does have transient accelerations/decelerations. See this example. [epa.gov]
Your points about torque are interesting, but don't forget that a hybrid's electric motor has a flat torque curve -- the torque "peak" for the Insight is at about 2000 rpm. The idea that diesel MPG is less sensitive to driving style is another interesting one. I suspect that would be reflected in the numbers -- "city" mileage ought to be relatively close to the "highway" mileage for such a car, if that were the case.
The starter-alternator sounds suspiciously like what a hybrid does, minus the boost/recharging ability while driving.
Finally, the Insight is available in parts of the EU. I know there are owners in Germany and the UK. In fact they are available in colors [insightcentral.net] that we can't get in the U.S.
Re:Yes but... (Score:1)
> My suspicion is that many car owners could do better if their car simply recorded/reported MPG to them
Indeed. Actually, nearly all new cars sold hereabouts sport an onboard computer with mpg (well, liters for 100km here - 40 mpg roughly equals to 6l/100km FWIW) reporting. And I see that so does the Insight [edmunds.com]. But Europeans are what they are, ya know... Especially in the South :) I didn't know that the Insight was available in Europe actually. Even though I read a lot of the automobile press available, they didn't even talk about it - nor test it for that matter.
(as to the mileage database, I'd argue that most Insight buyers are conscious of consumption problems, as you are, it seems :) - and from the link above, that the "cockpit" is quite designed to make the driver focus on it)
> Also, the EPA "city" test cycle does have transient accelerations/decelerations. See this example. [epa.gov]
Hey, that's a city test after all :p
> The idea that diesel MPG is less sensitive to driving style is another interesting one. I suspect that would be reflected in the numbers -- "city" mileage ought to be relatively close to the "highway" mileage for such a car, if that were the case.
It is. The Skoda sports 37mpg in city test cycles, but of course in real life it can go much lower - at least until the starter-alternator becomes mainstream. The BMW is unfortunately handicapped by its cubic displacement here, with a "mere" 31mpg. Some cars even score the same mpg in town than on highway (the Renault Clio 1.5 dCi is one, with 42mpg each).
> The starter-alternator sounds suspiciously like what a hybrid does, minus the boost/recharging ability while driving
Well, it can add to the torque of the engine actually, on heavy thrust demands. It's a small electrical engine located between the engine and gearbox. It recharges the batteries, just like a normal alternator, of course. In fact, it's just like an hybrid system, including energy recovery on braking etc, but it's not used for main propulsion. On manual gearboxes, it restarts the engine when the clutch pedal is pressed. Automatic gearboxes? Dunno, and I don't like them anyway :p Efficiency? Well, we'll see in two years' time when C4 is out :)
Thanks for the very nice talking.
Integrated starter-generator (Score:2)
Basically a diesel Prius? (Score:2)
In other words, you guys are talking about a fairly typical diesel-electric hybrid scheme. The Prius and Insight are essentially the same idea only using gasoline (aka petrol). Gas is more readily available in many parts of the United States.
But they are all slow as piss. (Score:2)
I guess I could just never make the performance sacrifice for mileage.
Re:But they are all slow as piss. (Score:2)
The Honda Insight was rated by Car and Driver as doing 0-60 in 10.6 sec [insightcentral.net], about the same as a low-end Civic. That's fast enough for me! I never have trouble merging. Prius is slower at 13 sec. A Ford Explorer is at 8.4 sec.
What's more, these cars get better overall mileage if you haul it getting up to speed, [insightcentral.net] maximizing your use of the electric motor while accelerating, minimizing the distance over which you burn a lot of gas, and maximizing the distance over which you cruise. Perhaps the hybrid drivers you saw didn't know this?
Passing on the highway mandates a downshift to 3rd (assuming you're cruising in 5th; even 4th is geared pretty high).
In any case, the Insight isn't like driving a Geo Metro.
Re:More info (Score:2)
> tires with a large diameter to reduce rolling resistance.
And that you find two perfectly serviceable engines and working batteries in a junkyard full of stuff that people threw away because it didn't work anymore to begin with.
Re:More info (Score:3, Informative)
Is it real junk from a real junkyard? Yes. Do they cream off the very top and concentrate it down in the corner they film in? Yes. Do they seed it with items from the junkyard that might be useful for that week's challange as recommended by the experts (sheets of material for hanggliders or hovercraft, screws/propellers for boats)? Yes. Is it still junk from the rest of the junkyard? Yes... unless it would be a safety hazard or just not found in a junkyard. In those few cases (high class solid rocket engines or parts for a steam engine) they are seeded with tested components.
That's a darn few cases, so most episodes feature real junk - prescreened junk, but real junk from the musch larger yard visible beyond the edges of the set. I've known a few people who went into a junkyard and, a few weeks or months later, had a working vehicle of some sort - dune buggy to functional (and butt-ugly) car. The parts are there, they just are a pita to find. The corner they film in is full of *just* the useful and working bits from a huge junkyard. Motorcycles with smashed front ends, vans with rusted out frames, etc.
--
Evan
Missing rule (Score:3, Funny)
From the pictures [shef.ac.uk], it looks like one rule was left out.
added weight! (Score:2)
More interesting, is that none of the cyclists are wearing helmets, but the drivers are. At 30 mph, even if you hit a brick wall in one of these things, you're just going to bump a knee, really. It looks like they would save on gas milage if they ditched the 5lb helmets.
Description is misleading (Score:4, Informative)
Last I heard they took the cars, ran them over an agreed course of a few miles maximum, excluded those who ran too slowly then measured the amount of fuel left in all the cars VERY CAREFULLY
Re:Description is misleading (Score:3, Informative)
boring... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:boring... (Score:1)
Yes, it most certainly does. The only difference is that they don't get looked at funny for wearing helmets.
Marketing these things is the real challenge (Score:2)
Supermileage (Score:5, Informative)
My team ended up with a top mileage of 305 mpg, this was for the stock class. Fairly good considering we had limited time, budget, and experience.
The way our competition worked is this: Each team is given a fuel bottle and it is weighed before the start. You then go around 2 laps (of the 3 mile track at Brainerd International Raceway) for a total of 6 miles. They then weigh your fuel bottle again to determine how much gas is used (making sure there are no air bubbles in the fuel line). This ends up a pretty accurate way of determining gas mileage. The weight of the gas really shouldn't matter that much, since more weight would mean you carry your momentum longer. You have to complete 6 runs and they take the average of that.
Now since we are high school students, our main goal was to build a working car. You then focus on aerodynamics, good bearings so it rolls well, wheel alignment, steering, and driving practice. Getting practice is key. Not only to determine what will break, but also to get good at controlling your burns. Short burns at high rpm's get you up to speed(roughly 30, which was the max), at which point you cut the engine and coast down to around 10(you have to maintain an average of 15). By the end of the 2 day competition, you saw drivers getting very good at rolling to a stop inches over the finish line.
It was a really fun competition, we saw some very cool cars with everything from carbon fiber bodies, to computer sensors and lcd displays mounted on the steering wheel, and you could download all the data to a computer for analysis. Sweet stuff.
Doesn't make sense! (Score:3, Interesting)
Why not force a guy to drink a liter of gas, then make him bicycle a ludicrious distance.
Why not build a sailboat and pour the gas overboard?
What about nucler sumbarines?
Those kooky europeans (Score:2, Offtopic)
1) the home page has a link for "Pictures" and a link for "Photos". I half expected that when I clicked on the link for "Pictures" I'd see more crayon drawings, like the one taking up most of the main page. Not so, both links go to photographs, with "Photos" being slightly more candid.
2) No homophobia or anything, but the second car on the "Pictures" page says "FAG" on the side in big black letters. Heh. That tickles my "Beavis and Butthead" level sense of humor. It's probably an acronym for something, but never in a million years would anyone in the US come up with an acronym like that and plaster it on their vehicle.
Re:Those kooky europeans (Score:2)
Re:Those kooky europeans (Score:1)
Best entrant. (Score:2)
This stealth car not only gets great mileage, it is also invisible to radar. No more worries about those pesky speed traps. Of course, at 20 MPH the only speed trap you'll have to worry about is a school zone. But, no worries in this puppy.
Shell? (Score:2)
It's like Microsoft having an uptime contest.
Re:Shell? (Score:2)
Namely, the configuration in question will never sell, so by all means advertise the impracticality of it!
Re:Who Needs Gas Efficiency? (Score:1)
Wow! And are all these counties really in rural Minnesota?
-Brent
Oops. (Score:1)
I guess I'm just an idjit.