Pitch Perfect Karaoke 201
BuffJoe writes "The folks paid to make newer and improved karaoke machines have discovered a way to make even the most tone deaf singers sound great with a new technology for perfect-pitch karaoke!"
Make your cracks about Karaoke if you like, but read the article- there are hooks
for scoring singing, correcting pitch, and more. Should also make those Karaoke parties a little
more tolerable.
Obligatory Simpsons Quote: (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Obligatory Simpsons Quote: (Score:5, Informative)
so it is Ontopic, should be funny. Just because you don't get the reference does not make it off topic.
Now if I had said "The Simpson are going to antiartica...next year this year Brazil" that would of been an off topic simpson reference.
Re:Obligatory Simpsons Quote: (Score:1, Offtopic)
What It Fixes (Score:2)
This can still have horrendous results.
This vs maybe adjusting the music, but also adjusting the sound of the singer so that the singer stays in tune.
This would be like the simpson rig, and would be truly impressive technology.
Re:Obligatory Simpsons Quote: (Score:2)
My friend can actually sing with beautiful female voice, while the female voice thru mine is awful - the technology doesn't work for me.
This thread ain't over (Score:2, Funny)
The company behind this... (Score:1)
First Bubble Bobble, then Bust a Move (or Puzzle Bobble to some), now a pitch-perfect Karaoke system... Go Taito!
Maybe now I'll actually sing Karaoke.
pitch correction is nothing new (Score:5, Interesting)
hell Rosie O'donnel thanked the device in her christmas CD (although c'mon... in-tune/key bad music is still bad music)
*Shrug*
E.
Re:pitch correction is nothing new (Score:5, Informative)
For example, if you know what to listen for (hard 'edges' to notes on vocals) you can hear it all over Britney's music. It's also being used as a vocoder-type effect (synth filtered by voice) on some recordings. The song on Kid Rock's hit CD that he sang on (it was country sounding) used it extensively.
Re:pitch correction is nothing new (Score:3, Informative)
MIT's Vercoe, who lauded Taito for finding a way to bring the sound synthesis technology to market, said pitch correction with Csound had been demonstrated long ago. It could even convert a spoken voice into melody, in real time.
"It's in the technology. You just have to switch it on," he said.
This makes me think that Vercoe did NOT ship the pitch correction "switched on." My suspicion is that this is due to IVL's patents. IVL [ivl.com] is a Vancouver, BC company that has been marketing formant-preserving pitch shifters for quite some time now. IVL's technology is licenced by Digitech and TC Electronics, among other companies. One of IVL's patents makes claims on the idea of pitch shifters that automatically harmonize and correct pitch.
Personally, I think that IVL's claims in this area are somewhat tenuous. They have taken a pitch-shifting algorithm that they did not come up with (the algorithm in question was originally from a Computer Music Journal article in the late 1980's), and added a few features that ARE obvious to those "skilled in the art." Still, it sounds like Vercoe didn't want to take any chances. It seems like Vercoe provided a pitch output from the pitch shifter, and let Taito do what they want with it. Nice way to sidestep any legal issues.
Antares uses the same basic algorithm as IVL. Both companies have their own proprietary pitch detection algorithms.
It is interesting to see that Extended Csound is still up and running. I thought that it was pretty much dead in the water since 1999 or so. Hmmm...
Vocoder can be made subtle (Score:4, Informative)
For example, if you know what to listen for (hard 'edges' to notes on vocals) you can hear it all over Britney's music. It's also being used as a vocoder-type effect (synth filtered by voice) on some recordings. The song on Kid Rock's hit CD that he sang on (it was country sounding) used it extensively.
Popular songs that have used a vocoder effect with hard transitions between pitches:However, use of the vocoder on some other songs is more subtle. Sometimes, the vocoder's pitch is set halfway between the pitch the slut is actually singing and the pitch that her producers want her to sing, which produces a much less synthetic perception. (Following a single voice's pitch is straightforward: square-root the signal to restore the fundamental, apply a 4th order low pass filter to remove harmonics, and count sign changes. If you want to know more, mail me [mailto].)
Oops! I did it again. I just described how to do something that probably infringes a dozen patents worldwide.
Re:Vocoder can be made subtle (Score:2)
Re:pitch correction is nothing new (Score:1)
dude.
Re:pitch correction is nothing new (Score:1)
Linkin Park uses an auto-pitch corrector a lot too, as well as Willa Ford in her song "I wanna be bad".
I'll never understand why they just don't do it right, or get someone who can sing. It's like riding a bike - once you learn how to pick it out, you'll never evaluate a singer the same way again.
Re:pitch correction is nothing new (Score:1)
i dont mind people using it so much when all they are doing is correcting minor, minor, errors in what would otherwise be a perfect take...
but, ever since that damn cher song (and probably a little before that) people have been cranking the settins to hard tune a voice purposely using it as a vocal effect...its so OVERUSED it makes me sick...although, the funny part is that the biggest cluprits are the country music sluts. they milk that shit for all its worth.
dude.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:pitch correction is nothing new (Score:2)
They work "sort of ok" for simple harmonies, but as soon as you try them with complex harmonies they kind of suck. Plus they push the voice to the pure tempered tones, which is unnatural for a sliding instrument such as the voice. A natural voice (like a violin) will lean microtones off from the tempered pitch in the desired direction of the tendency tones. The result of pitch correctors is a very artificial sound.
Re:pitch correction is nothing new (Score:2)
Further, Auto-Tune is midi controllable, so (though I don't have it in front of me right now to check) I'd imagine it responds to midi pitch bend controller information.
Wow! Imagine the future! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Wow! Imagine the future! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Wow! Imagine the future! (Score:2)
Just think, someday I can "sing" the words along with the music, and due to their nifty software it will sound exactly as if I had the CD in.
Defendent:
alias Kraegar
Prosecutor:
United States,
Hilary Rosen, RIAA,
et al
Charges:
Distribution of Method for
Circumvention of Copyright
Pursuant to DMCA
Re:Wow! Imagine the future! (shudder) (Score:2)
People who go out to Karaoke bars a lot (the regulars) tend to be fairly good singers, and the thing that keeps them coming back (and running up big drink tabs with their friends) is the chance to show off what good singers they are.
If the performances are masked to hide pitch errors, you negate the opportunity for those poor slobs to stand out from the crowd for three and a half minutes, and they will stop going, leaving the bar with nobody but the sloppy drunks who think they know how to sing "Friends In Low Places" but can't remember any of the verses.
The purpose of running Karaoke is to make money, not to make perfect music. The people considering buying a system like this might want to keep that in mind.
This just lowers the bar that much more... (Score:1)
This technology is swell (Score:4, Funny)
Re:This technology is swell (Score:1)
Hey, if everyone could rap like MC Hawking [mp3s.com] that'd be cool!
Re:This technology is swell (Score:1)
we salute you (Score:1)
Forget Karaokee... (Score:2)
Forget Karaokee bars... They need to give these to many recording artists!
Human voice is the most finest instrument (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Human voice is the most finest instrument (Score:2)
There's some great voices out there, but it is not the sole vehicle for musical emotion. The scale may have a finite number of notes, but there are infinite variations possible.
Two turntables and a pitch correcting microphone (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait, this has already happened.
In other news (Score:2, Funny)
Re:In other news (Score:2)
Re:In other news (Score:1)
I didn't mime (I NEVER do), but before the first eight were through, the box-of-tricks plain gave up in a puff of smoke.
Now why do you suppose that happened?
Why do birds suddenly appear... (Score:2)
~Just like me, they long to be
~Close to you
~Why do stars fall down from the sky
~Every time you walk by?
Everybody sing along! Kareoke is wonderful, ever since I got my Taito PerfectPitch 9000!
~Just like me, they long to be
~Close to you.
It's About Time... (Score:1)
:D
BlackGriffen
Finally (Score:1)
you too can sound like Cher (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm also sure you've not heard it when the thresholds are set a little looser.
It was kinda neat the first time I heard it, but jeeze.. it's getting old.
Re:you too can sound like Cher (Score:3, Informative)
That's not how the Cher "Believe" effect was done. There was an article about it in Sound On Sound. It was done by alternating between the actual vocals and the vocals ran through a vocoder.
maru
What's the point? (Score:4, Insightful)
-vic
Brittney Spears (Score:1)
Re:Brittney Spears (Score:1)
You know what this means..... (Score:4, Funny)
Although this sounds good at first, unfortunately, radio play will be swamped by the promotional music ventures
Re:You know what this means..... (Score:1)
And how is this is a bad thing???
Re:You know what this means..... (Score:2)
And how is this is a bad thing???
because as great as they are to look at, you/we hear their pre-processed crap 50 times for every one time you see them perform.
Re:You know what this means..... (Score:1)
That's why they invented the 'MUTE' button.
Taito Corp: Video games - Karaoke (?) (Score:1)
Most 80s video game makers are now, believe it or not, in the karaoke business.
Re:Taito Corp: Video games - Karaoke (?) (Score:1)
However, Technos Corp. did Double Dragon.
For a list of games by Taito Corp, check out mame.dk [www.mame.dk]
What!? (Score:1)
Now wait just a minute here, I don't know where you are from friend but Karaoke is the hottest thing to do! Why, who wouldn't enjoy listening to their favorite songs being decimated by their half-drunk friends? I can think of nothing I'd rather be doing on a Wednesday night at Bill's Kill 'n Grill!
perfect pitch? (Score:1)
how will this help?
Old News (Score:1)
Don't leave your earplugs yet... (Score:4, Insightful)
Thus, bad karaoke is still bad karaoke. Good for all of us with pitch, we'll still impress. :)
Adjusting the voice on the fly is going to be a different problem -- it would probably be easiest solved by hard coding the Hz at each given moment of a song (with some fuzzy boundaries) and then running the mic input through.
But what fun is that? How can we be impressed by the guys who can sing A-Ha's 'Take on Me' if everyone can do it?
Re:Sound engineer here. (Score:2)
The only way I can see to do it is to assume the singer is wrong. Always. (This totally removes the ability for any deviation from "right", but how else could they know) At any given time, you know the Hz of note they're supposed to be hitting, so you just mod the vocal input to said Hz and you're good to go.
But there's gotta be some fuzziness to the algorithm to find the how the vocal input lines up with the actual rythym (nobody's going to be exactly on time, especially when you'd probably have to be sampling for it at an absurdly quick rate) as well as some fuzziness in the Hz itself...it's possible to recognize a bend, technically, you could stick it in there as long as you wound up on the right note. I think I'm just more interested in how the hell they think they're gonna get it to work decently enough to use...
But I'd still take it anyday for the transposition...very useful for all those songs that just need to be a half step lower/higher to fit in my range!
Everybody start Karaoke singing..... (Score:1)
In fact it was a little bit fright'ning, but they kept up with expert timing
There was funky drunken kids from funky Collegetown
They were smoking tokes up, they were taking bong's down
It's an ancient Chinese art, and everybody knew their part
Common friend don't be a stiff, just start singin' from the hip
Everybody was Karaoke singing, those lyrics went by as fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit fright'ning, but they kept up with expert timing
There was funky Developer guy, who doesn't get out much
He said, here comes the new tech, let's code it on
He took the mike, out of the stand, started swaying with the band
A sudden comotion made him stiff, now he's into a brandnew rip
Everybody was Karaoke singing, those lyrics went by as fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit fright'ning, but they kept up with expert timing
uh-oh-uh-oh...(repeat 4 times)
Everybody was Karaoke singing, those lyrics went by as fast as lightning
In fact it was a little bit fright'ning, but they kept up with expert timing
uh-oh-uh-oh...Karaoke singing, uh-oh-uh-oh... had to be fast as lightning...
uh-oh-uh-oh...(repeat 3 times) code on code on code on
uh-oh-uh-oh... yeah yeah, uh-oh-uh-oh... ***slashdotted out***
-YoGrark
"No Gnu's is not necessarily good gnu's"
What about variations? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:What about variations? (Score:2)
Don't use vocoder.
Man, that was simple.
Re:What about variations? (Score:2)
Re:What about variations? (Score:2)
Don't use vocoder.
Man, that was simple.
Well, yes, if you can figure out which of the 87 buttons on the remote turns off the vocoder.
On a slightly unrelated note, this reminds me of a story I heard about the Star Trek (TOS) episode with the green-skinned woman: no matter how much makeup they put on her, the films always came back with ordinary flesh color. When the producer finally gave up and went to the film processing crew about it, the answer was, "Oh, you wanted it green? We thought that was a lighting problem!"
Re:What about variations? (Score:2)
The problem comes when someone tries to be deliberately counter-tempo... it doesn't work any more. Of course, turning it off fixes the problem...
Why be counter-tempo? Often, especially if you're doing something unusual like singing a harmonic of the original pitch, it actually underscores (pardon the pun) the original work better.
Songwriters (or composers) write for the voices in their heads, or to specific types of voices that they expect to be singing their work. Sometimes some tweaking can make things sound better, especially if you're not their "target" performer. For example, I can imagine a barbershop quartet doing a really awesome cover of "Closer to God," but certainly not by singing it exactly like Trent Reznor does...
IANAMuse, though, so think what you will =)
Mister Microphone grows up (Score:2)
How is this different? (Score:2)
Re:How is this different? (Score:1)
what? no name-mangle for Britney Spears?
Re:How is this different? (Score:1)
Re:How is this different? (Score:2)
Studio Pitch Shifting is done in post (Score:2, Informative)
This new machine proposes to take the engeneer's seat as well as the processing equipment's. It will most likely read a signal telling what pitch the singer should be at and analize the incomming signal from the mic and based on a comparison of the two shift up or down.
One problem I have always noticed with live, real-time pitch shifting (NOTE: not auto-correcting, simply pitch shifting) is there is a delay, a millisecond or two, but enough to be audible. Methinks adding all the analysis time into the mix will add a little more delay and the singing will sound off! Hopefully they'll get it running smoothly...even if it takes all the fun out of Karaoke.
And now that i think about it (Score:1)
Murder on the dancefloor (Score:1, Funny)
I was in The Royal, Hartlepool, and after a few drinks and the prompting of a few lady friends I decided to sing American Pie...big mistake.
So, I sang the song, I sucked but i didn't care - its good fun either way, then we left the pub (quickly I might add). To our surpise the entire road outside had been blocked off and the area was swarming with police cars and ambulances.
What had happened was, around the same time I was singing, someone threw themselves out of the thrid floor of the pub. I have since been branded the karaoke killer so I welcome any device that will reduce the number of song related deaths caused by muppets who cant sing doing karaoke
On another note if your in the vicinity of the Royal in Hartlepool, UK (Church Street), I will be doing a repeat performance on saturday.
Song requests to chris@wickedbass.net!
My way (Score:1)
bad singing=fun (Score:2, Insightful)
Thank God (Score:1)
A perfect example... (Score:1)
Yoko (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Yoko (Score:5, Funny)
No, that involves going back in time and nudging Mark David Chapman's shootin' arm to the left a bit.
Re:Yoko (Score:2)
Re:Yoko (Score:2)
Still do. IIRC, she's coming out with a Gearge Harrison exploita^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Htribute album.
Isn't that what makes Karoke fun? (Score:3, Insightful)
Butchery isn't fun (Score:2)
However, a pitch bender isn't the solution I'd prefer for these people. Personally, I'm thinking tasers :)
NOT perfect pitch! (Score:2, Insightful)
an intriguing behavioral trait involved in music perception and is defined as the ability to recognize the pitch of a musical tone without an external reference pitch
For example, a professor at my beloved alma mater [unt.edu] was able to identify a pitch by referring to its frequency in Hz! The phrase describes someone at a different end of the musical spectrum than the idiots at which this product is aimed.
-jason [gmaestro.org]
Re:NOT perfect pitch! (Score:2)
Also available: Voice Impersonator (Score:4, Informative)
There's also a team in Spain developing Voice Impersonator [google.com] Karaoke technology.
Now singers can morph their own bland and off-key voices into a full rich Elvis (or anyone else for whom a digital voice template has been computed). Why be yourself, when you can be The King!
Hydrogen beer rampage in Tokyo! (Score:1, Funny)
For the easily duped... :) (Score:1)
http://www.darwinawards.com/legends/legends1999
Been done already (Score:1)
Great, but isn't the point of karoke that... (Score:1)
This was already out decades ago... (Score:5, Funny)
As the king of 7-Bamboo in San Jose (Score:2)
I have a karaoke story to tell,
There was a spell in my life about 2 years ago where I spent 6 months straight, 7 days a week, 7 martini's a night at what has been named the best karaoke bar in san jose by the san jose metro.
I popularized such forgotten hit's as Yes we have no Banana's by Spike Jones, To dream the impossible dream from
Man of La [winamp.com]
Mancha, and brought new flair to Baby Got Back by Sir Mix Alot. In the
beginning I was a scared lone singer up on stage, my voice was terrible and I
was afraid.
I began to conquer my songs, one at a time. I would come in before any of the
other singers and start around 6:00. Each song I conquered represented a fear,
so in essence, I was conquering my fears.
I had a buddy that taught me the ways. Our whole thing was we were
"The Rat Pack" We got other singers into this clique and sort of set
the place on fire not only with our alcohol finely tuned voices, but with our
stage presence and showmanship as well.
The rat pack ended when Frank Sinatra had a kid. I miss those harmonic
days of bliss long since past.
So drawing from what I know makes or breaks a karaoke superstar, and applying
it to this comment, I honestly have to say that I don't think this will totally
help all people. You still have issue's with stage fright, crowd response,
the singers harmonic vocalizations and how well they dance around and put on a
show.
There is also somewhat of a joke in karaoke. Sometimes people TRY
and sing off key or tempo. It's what you do with a song that makes people laugh
or clap. Not just how well you sing.
IVL Technologies does this too... (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, way back when I was working at a music store in Victoria we got a few of these in. They never really sold very well, but were pretty amazing if you knew how to use them. Found a review [sospubs.co.uk] of the iH on Google.
IVL does some very neat stuff. Check out their Web site [ivl.com].
Re:IVL Technologies does this too... (Score:1)
Not too shabby. Check out the online demos [ivl.com]. Bizarre.
Someone should tell Bjork about this (Score:1)
N/T
go math, math rulez (Score:1)
Great. Now, if we assess everything mathematically, we'll eventually live in a perfect world, right? I don't see any flaws in this logic, do you?
If I could get a mathematician to rate my movies for me, cook my food and write my laws for me, I'd really be living the high life. Mathematicians are definitely God's most perfect creatures.
low-tech solution... (Score:1)
What does this actually solve? (Score:2)
Having never done it myself I would guess thusly:
*to sing along to a famous/popular song, and in the process test your voice amongst a jury of your peers (most likely trashed of their nuts and laughing their asses off)
Introducing this technology to karaoke has no point.
You may as well mime along to the original CD
Actually, it's simpler than you'd think. (Score:2, Funny)
First, they play a song with the vocals removed so that someone can sing along, like standard karaoke.
Now, here's how this new technology works. Once that someone starts singing, their microphone is automatically turned off, and the original vocal tracks are added back in.
I hear it sounds great!
Singing Freaks (Score:2)
The machine automatically corrects your voice to make it sound good, and at the end of a song it scores you on how well you did?!
In other news... Konami anounces "Singing Freaks 1st Mix" :-)
Re:So that's how Britney Spears does it... (Score:1)
Re:That's all well and good, but (Score:1)
Re:They stole my idea! (Score:3, Informative)
This product was based on the research of Roger Dannenberg [cmu.edu], who had auto-accompaniment working years ago. Send him an email if you're interested in working on something similar; he has lots of code he can throw at you and he might want to collaborate.
Re:They stole my idea! (Score:1)
The difference? One is useful, the other is funny.
Re:They stole my idea! (Score:1)
The point was that the product in the article adjusts the pitch of the singer via some fancy algorithms. I thought it would be funny if the device just slowed or sped up the accompaniment music, like a poorly operating record player. The singer would then technically be "in key" but the result would sound like crap.
Now that's funny!
cutting edge tech news. (Score:1)