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Space Science

The VLT Observes Comet LINEAR's "Shower" 59

Posted by Hemos from the cool-vision dept.
mindpixel writes "Two nights ago, while operating the VLT (the world's largest optical telescope), we got a call into the control room asking us to follow up the Hubble's imaging of Comet Linear a few days prior. As soon as we got the coordinates, I pointed the telescope at the very fast moving comet and started taking pictures. They came in quickly, and they were awesome! We couldn't believe the detail we were getting. The comet was completely shattered. Even in the unprocessed images we were able to count nine mini-comets. Six minutes ago, they released it The VLT Observes Comet LINEAR's "Shower")"
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The VLT Observes Comet LINEAR's "Shower" More

The VLT Observes Comet LINEAR's "Shower"

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  • The reverse is happening as well. As more and more optics people are becoming more familiar with adaptive optics, the military has started declassifying a lot of it, simply because there are a large number of people in the private/public sector that have the capability to do that kind of stuff. For example, some (if not all) of the technology developed at the Starfire Optical Range has been released (these were the guys that developed the laser guide star tech).

    I also had the luck to be on the team to make one of the first IR observations using the starfire telescope, it was really amazing stuff.

  • I've been part of a team working on Comet Tabur (1996/C Q1) that is believed to have broken up as well. Our spectra of Tabur show some peculiar abundances, and it would be interesting to know if any molecular enhancements or deficiencies are being observed in LINEAR.

  • Another Site With Some Info (Score:3)

    by JetJaguar ( 1539 ) on Tuesday August 08, 2000 @09:01AM (#870779)
    You might have a look at encke [nasa.gov]. This site has a lot of info about comets in general, including finding charts, positions, brightness, and lots of pictures spread across the site.
  • hey, how about providing a cache server that convieniently has these sites in memory? Web cache's apparantly don't have the legal issues that mirroring a site, I can access all kinds of anonymizing proxies.

    Hey, there is a business plan here, slashcache.org or something of the sort... People would just have to set their browser proxy settings. And if was fast enough, they wouldn't change them back. So now you'd have to proxy all sorts of interesting stuff to the technical minded opensource crowd along with the hot grits freaks.

    Just include me when you get it rolling, OK?

  • SLashdot did it agian. Does anyone has a mirror?
  • Believe it or not, astronomy advances really *are* advancing as rapidly as computer technology. Some other commentors in this thread have suggested that building a telescope that is larger than today's scopes is difficult. I think that it is not. We have the technology and the ability to design and build telescopes that are 23, 30, or even 100 meters across. The largest scopes today have mirrors about 10 meters across.

    The single most important limiting factor on telescopes today has to do with the adaptive optics used on modern scopes. Hundreds of times a second, a computer analyzes the light entering the scope and adjusts elements within the scope to change the shape of the optics, compensating for distortions in the atmosphere. When you've got a huge telescope, you've got a huge wavefront to analyze. It's currently not possible to perform the analysis, but with faster computers it will be.

    I can just about guarentee that within 10 years or so an instrument at least 50 meters wide will be built. There's quite a few projects underway right now.

  • Re:So what does this mean? (Score:3)

    by Cally ( 10873 ) on Tuesday August 08, 2000 @10:03AM (#870783) Homepage
    It's theoretically known that comets will tend to break apart due to the sudden heating from the sun as they approach the sun. However it hasn't been observed very often before. Shoemaker-Levy 9 (which crashed into Jupiter) did this, but a different cause - tidal stress from Jupiter. This seems to have been caused by the heat from the sun causing explosive sublimation of the ices that comprise much of the comet. Given that this particular LINEAR comet (it's named for the the LINEAR automated survey which has found tons of comets) doesn't appear to have approached the sun before,the ratio of ice to dirt is likely to be high. There's also speculation that the object itself broke off a larger parent body; not sure of the details on that one. NASA's Space Science site [spacescience.com] usually has good coverage of these things (here's their LINEAR story [spacescience.com].) Sign up for the news alert mail, you get to hear about these things before Slashdot ;)

    Apologies for any accidental misinfo in this.
    HTH
    Camaron de la Isla [flamenco-world.com] 'When I sing with pleasure, my

  • Re:Technology is getting crazy... (Score:3)

    by Christopher Thomas ( 11717 ) on Tuesday August 08, 2000 @09:08AM (#870784)
    All in all, how much longer do people think before we get to some barrier to further advances...

    From one point of view, we already are at the barrier. We have telescopes that can resolve images at the theoretical resolution limit for their aperture size (as governed by diffraction), we have telescopes that can focus all or almost all of the light falling on their (filled) apertures on to their detectors, and we have detectors that can detect individual photons. In other words, our telescopes are approaching the best possible efficiency for whatever aperture size we choose to build.

    From another point of view, we will have the potential for continued advancement for quite a while to come. Optical interferometry-based telescopes are just starting to come into their own, which will allow us to build telescopes with synthetic apertures arbitrarily long. Segmented mirror technology continues to improve, with the maximum size of segmented mirror systems growing incrementally larger. Space-based telescopes are still an immature technology; while space-based telescopes won't be more efficient per se than ground-based telescopes, they can view wavelength ranges that the atmosphere blocks. There is also a fair bit of work to be done on automated instrumentation (as of the last few articles I've read on the subject, galaxy spectra surveys are still slow and involve a lot of fiddling, for example).

    In summary, while we're starting to approach perfect efficiency for the telescopes we've built, there is still a lot of engineering to be done in order to incrementally broaden the range of telescopes that _can_ be built.
  • Do you think they will name each new "mini" comet?
    ---

  • Re:ALREADY slashdotted? (Score:5)

    by Silver A ( 13776 ) on Tuesday August 08, 2000 @09:01AM (#870786)
    Does the slashdot editorial staff give any warning to sites they're about to feature, maybe giving them a chance to put up a mirror? Some sites are pretty immune to the Slashdot Effect, but lots aren't. Andover may even want to look into providing mirror space, maybe with an andover ad (like geocities or xoom), as a possible way of reducing the disruption of the Slashdot effect.

  • Hubble does it too (Score:4)

    by sohp ( 22984 ) <snewtonNO@SPAMio.com> on Tuesday August 08, 2000 @09:20AM (#870787) Homepage
    Well these aren't the VLT pics but the HST made
    these [stsci.edu] photos at about the same time. And I believe this site is more slashdot-ready.

    s
  • Nine mini-comets, eh? Well, you probably have nine mini-servers, now. It is also "completely shattered"
    --
  • Ummm.... wasn't "Star Wars" a Ballistic Missile Defense system?
  • *Damn!* That must be record time for a /.ing.

    I'd ask if anybody got a mirror, but I don't see how they could have done so that quickly...

  • The site is already slashdotted.. =:-(

    A side though though (not quite on topic, but close...). Is it just my imagination, or is telescope technology evolving as fast as computer technology these days? We now have ridiculously precise lenses (first hubble aside =:-), we've got telescopes in space to avoid athmospheric interference, we've got micromotor controlled mirror arrays to make adjustments to images, and we've got all sorts of automated systems to alert humans if it looks like anything cool is happening in the sky at any particular location.
    All in all, how much longer do people think before we get to some barrier to further advances, i mean people have been making steadily better and better telescopes for hundreds of years... (possibly thousands, i'm really not sure...) It seems that at some point we'll max out the technology...
  • Why not just melt some glass and spin it, let freeze, and voila, mirror. I expect that the freezing process causes some distortion. As the material shrinks, currents caused by different densities, lumps floating around; you get the idea. Still it would be a good way to form the initial shape, just some polishing to finish it up. Then again, how do they make those really big mirrors?
  • Who says there's a barrier? Ever seen a product or technology become oh-so-much-cooler because someone thought of a new use for it? This will continue to happen for eternity...or till you and me are dead and no longer care! ;-)
  • (Sorry to reply to my own post).

    I just looked up the HIPAS LIDAR specs here [alaska.edu]. They have a 2.7m liquid mercury telescope as part of their LIDAR diagnostics.
  • Quite sizable telescopes of this type have already been constructed. For example, at the HIPAS [alaska.edu] facility in Fairbanks, AL, a liquid-mercury telescope is used for collecting LIDAR data (optical backscatter from the upper atmosphere/ionosphere). IIRC their telescope was quite large, one of the largest-diameter optical telescopes in the world, however they couldn't orient it by more than a few degrees one way or another (this done by adjusting the optics near the focal point, not by positioning the mirror). Even still, it was very cheap (only a few thousand dollar or so to construct), so one might imagine using 1000 or so for meteor and space-junk surveys.
  • Since the VLT source appears to be slashdotted, another good place to look is the Astronomy Picture of the Day [nasa.gov], which has a Hubble pic of the comet up today.

    Doug
  • I was just about to suggest freezing. Condensation would be a bitch. You'd need an encolosed system with nitrogen. which incidentally would solve the mecury-will-kill-you problem.

    Johan
  • 'nother thought. The argument for space borne mirrors is that the atomosphere gets in the way; even w/ adaptive optics to correct for effects, I'd imagine this get alot harder to do for a large mirror.

    Now, a large mirror is heavy. You can't really take it appart to send it up into space, 'cause assembly would be a hassle. A liquid mercury mirror wouldn't have that problem. You can assemble the bucket in space, fill it with mercury carted up during a number of missions. Add some heating elements and you're all set.

    or at least you would be if the whole point of the excersise wasn't to use the interplay between gravity and centripital force to form the mirror.
    When you're weightless in orbit, there's not much gravity to play with. (well, there is gravity, it's just counterbalanced ... you know what I mean)

    Bummer!

    Constant linear acceleration might work. Or just put it on the moon. Thoughts.

  • You don't get much meat on a vegan (they're skinny buggers), but it's all top-quality stuff.

    Bet it tastes like chicken.

  • I heard a talk (for a nonspecialist audience) this spring by a University of Rochester astronomer. He said that the improvements occuring now in the technology of astronomy are of the same importance as the Galileo's first use of the telescope. It's that big a change in what can be done.
  • LINEAR COMET, NAKED PETRIFIED and shattered!!!

    Strong data typing is for those with weak minds.

  • After it's fly-by on Slashdot effect, how many smaller servers did www.eso.org break into?

    If nothing else, all of that extra traffic has heated up the box's network card :).

  • mini me?
    mini palm?
    mini linux?
    mini bsd?
    mini taco?

  • As with all comets, they are pristine samples of a time at which our solar system was assembled. They are cosmic fossiles in our own backyard if you wish. If one knows how they break up, you might say something sensible about how they were made in the first place, and therefore about the earliest conditions in our solar system.

  • NASA is planning a mission to impact a comet, the mission is called Deep Impact. Here is the URL: http://www.ss.astro.umd.edu/deepimpact/
  • Veal, Lettuce, and Tomato?
  • Here is a clue right next to my User number on the subject bar (User #99801 Info) http://www.linuxsystems.net :)
  • ya sometimes :) I just get borded at work so this is my way of helping out ;)
  • I mirrord most of the page and was only able to grab one picture. But you can still make out the detail of the little picture :) Be easy on the box it is on a dsl line.
  • Well, I can't find these new photos, but here [stsci.edu] is the original Hubble photo, and also a ground-based photo. (JPG and PDF available.)
  • Some sites may be leary. Legal agreements would have to be signed. Some people may object to adbanners (i know i wouldn't want them tacked on. to me, ad banners are a distinguishing hallmark of corporatism. Wouldn't want them added to my site, personally.)

    But i think the biggest obstacle would be: getting permission. It takes time. People may not check their mail. It may take a day or two to get a reply.

    They may not have a very portable site, constructing the mirror may expose additional problems.

    Your idea is interesting... but could prove to be impractical, and at the very least would create a barrier to timely news.

    But don't get me wrong, i truly feel for all the small-time admins who've had their sites utterly crushed by madly clicking droves of slashdot minions.

  • We saw Shoemaker-Levy break apart and hit Jupiter, and there's a LOT of comets out there--in fact, the SOHO spacecraft studying the sun has discovered over a hundred (most shortly before they plunged into the sun). Point being: anything that helps us understand how comets act and especially what happens when they break up (as is happening with Comet LINEAR) and how those comets and fragments interact with other celestial bodies will be extremely helpful to those of us living on this little blue-green marble.

  • One of those billion-dollar missions supposedly 'lost' by the government... really a probe to see if we could destroy an incoming object. A comet is a real good choice because they are easy to spot and we can get a good idea of what happens by its tail reaction.

    I mean, I'm sure we're going to coincidentally have all these powerful telescopes pointed at some obscure comet at just the right time...
  • It's the new meal from Cannibal Burgers - "vegan, lettuce and tomato". You don't get much meat on a vegan (they're skinny buggers), but it's all top-quality stuff. Sliced thinly, marinated briefly in herb butter, then flash-fried. Served in a sesame-seed bun with a side-salad or fries.

    Incidentally, I've just found "www.cannibal.org" is registered to NetworkSolutions. Ironic or what?! However, "www.cannibal.com" is still available, for any carnivores wanting a web-presence...

    Grab.
  • Just started reading it here at work, then realised that it might trip off the pr0n sensors in the IT dept! Some ppl have no sense of humour :-( Ah well, I'll have to check it out at home instead...

    Grab.
  • The dream of a real-time full-coverage observing system is finally coming true. Comet LINEAR is the baby of such systems. Too bad the baby just exploded...
  • Because you could get into copyright issues if you mirror something without permission.

  • i built a small mercury mirror telescope in 1984 as a high school science project - only 12 inches. well, actually, it didn't have a secondary so it wasn't really a telescope. i decided even with the glycerin i added to coat the mercury when i spun it up, that it was just too dangerous to being fooling with.

    my last thoughts on the project were that maybe i could spin it into shape, then freeze it solid by cooling of the mirror pan with liquid nitrogen. as long as it was frozen, it would be much safer and i could point it just like any telescope.

    does anyone know if there is any literature on freezing ltm's? maybe they would be too heavy for earth, but imagine sending a telesscope in a bottle into orbit, where cooling is easy...

    Help Create True Artificial Consciousness: Join the Mindpixel Digital Mind Modeling Project and get Free Shares in the Venture! [mindpixel.com]

  • Mirror located at [johncglass.com]

    Enjoy!

  • Woops. Bad HTML. I should preview and check those links..

    http://www.johncglass.com/mirror/comet.h tm [johncglass.com]

    Enjoy!

  • For all you friendly Slashdotters, I have mirrored the site: http://www.johncglass.com/mirror/comet.h tm [johncglass.com]

    Have fun!

  • Just "finished" reading it, pretty good story!

    ---------------
  • care to tell anyone what the site is?
  • heh you keep a whole domain just for mirroring?
  • Looks like the Comet got slashdotted! Really... I was dissapointed to see that it broke up because I was looking forward to looking at it through my own telescope... looks like I just waited too long. Speaking of Telescopes, any other /. readers are into astronomy? Let me know!
  • When 'scope technology gets too good, the CIA stops by and makes sure the tech gets classified. When I was at U of AZ in the mid-80s, the astronomy/optics department put out its monthly newsletter with a picture of the Mir lab as clear as if it was across the street. Some CIA types showed up very soon after and dropped the hammer, immediately classifying the technology. So, the government, not optics, is really the limiting factor in what we're allowed to image.

  • Re:Technology is getting crazy... (Score:3)

    by V_M_Smith ( 186361 ) on Tuesday August 08, 2000 @09:01AM (#870828)
    You have no idea how crazy!

    There is currently an international collaboration to construct a 4m-class liquid mirror telescope. [ulg.ac.be] Interesting idea based on a simple principle of fluid mechanics. There have even been mutterings about placing a larger version on the moon. The main problem with LMT's is the limited directionality they have. They do seem to be okay for survey work, though.

  • For a long time the limit of the resolution of telescopes was given by the atmosphere, and was similar to the theoretical resolution limit of a rather moderate telescope (1 meter??? might have been only 40 cm, can't remember the numbers... ), so all the "old" big telescopes did was gather more ligh, not improve resolution.

    As this problem is solved by various methods these days (putting telescopes in space, adaptive optics, computer reconstruction based on an "artifical star" that is projected in the upper atmosphere by a laser, ...) it is only a question of making the telescopes big enough to see how ever much detail we desire. This might be difficult from an engineering point of view, but as far as I am aware there are no physical limits to the resolution of a telescope.

  • I do hope you Americans voted for the guys with the best plan to protect earth against all this kinda stuff, us Brits depend on it




    ==============================
  • Now will they rename it Comet Globular?

  • Have the VLT no respect for privacy?? (Score:4)

    by vertical-limit ( 207715 ) on Tuesday August 08, 2000 @08:52AM (#870832)
    Would you like it if someone was observing you in the shower? Geez, guys, leave LINEAR alone.
  • OK, it's very cool. Now what can we learn from it? I agree that basic research is a Good Thing, but is there anything more specific that we hope to learn about? I'm trying not to sound all pissy or anything, I'm just interested to hear people's thoughts. I think its VERY cool that we got this rare event with the telescopes (for that matter, anyone have any info on how rare it is?)

    ---
  • Hmmm. I thought the worlds largest telescope wouldn't have need for another mirror ;)
  • I personally like the idea of warning them, but I can see what you mean by the implications involved.

    My thought would be to let them know that they might have won a flood of visitors. Let them know just a little bit in advance (matter of minutes or hours) and if they can write back before the time limit, great. If not, you could at least say you tried, even if it is futile.

    I personally would be a little annoyed if my site was shut down and I had to figure out why. If I knew ahead of time, I'd at least know.. Maybe even have time to scream for a mirror if I wanted one..

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