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Space Science

Simulating Life On The Red Planet 146

Posted by Hemos from the if-we-build,-we-will-come dept.
Cybernetic Wolf writes: "The Mars Society has just finished building the Flashline Mars Arctic Research Station in the Canadian Arctic. The station has been built to simulate what life on Mars will be like for future astronauts. This is a really cool first step in getting humans closer to colonizing other planets. There is a webcam and video of them as well."
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Simulating Life on the Red Planet More

Simulating Life on the Red Planet

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  • Been there before... (Score:4)

    by KFury ( 19522 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @06:17PM (#890099) Homepage
    Isn't this just the set for Big Brother 2001?

    Kevin Fox
  • The very reason we keep going to MArs is that we do not know what life on Mars is like. How then can the MArs society caim to simulate life on mars? I think this is nothing more than a publicity stunt( caant even be called training as the people in the dome are not the ones going to MArs anyway) to drum up support for Mars exploration in which case I support it completely as I am a strong believer that we have to go to other planets if Mankind is to fulfill its destiny But even if the cause is noble I think its a bit flashy to make unsubstantiated claims . It might backfire and Congress might even cut funding by saying if we can simulate it we dont need to go....

  • Help with their simulations (Score:3)

    by Alpha State ( 89105 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @06:18PM (#890101) Homepage

    And now, curtesy of slashdot, they also get a simulated attack on their internet connection.

    (Apparently this was a problem with MIR and some shuttle missions - their communications getting DOSed at a critical point. Luckily NASA are good at building redundant systems)

  • this would be a "cool first step" in contrast with, for instance, sputnik, or the moon landing, or 1,001 other geek in space happenings over the past thirty and more years?
  • I don't mean to rain on NASA's parade, but, seriously, who would want to live on other planets? Personally, I'd be extremely reluctant to leave everything I know behind on Earth and ship myself off to another planet where living conditions would likely be much poorer (at least at first) -- especially knowing that I'd probably never be able to come back.

    Now, I realize I'm just one person, but a lot of people are going to be thinking the same thing. Few people would want to move to Mars until life on Mars becomes normal and comfortable -- and living conditions on Mars won't improve until more people arrive. It's a classic Catch-22 situation; and I honestly don't see extraplanetary settlement appealing to anyone except a few fringe groups or the inevitable "early adopters." There's also a lot of other factors to consider: Who will make the laws on Mars? What language(s) will be spoken? Will Mars be a colony of some Earth-based country, sparking a resurrection in colonialism? Or could we make Mars an international territory for the betterment of civilization?

    Before you hit that reply button to flame me, sit back and think what you would really do if you could leave on a space shuttle for Mars tomorrow. Would you really want to abandon the Earth, home of humanity for many millenia, and all of its scenic mountains, awe-inspiring oceans, and beautiful forests to go live on a God-forsaken hump of red rock? I think not.

  • All this talk about colonizing planets hearkens back to the Space Race days of the 1950's and 1960's when everyone was raving about how the future will bring cities on the moon. It's 2000 and I still don't see those cities. Granted the concept of a simulator is intriguing, but that is the farthest humankind will get. It's just no feasible or realistic to expect to colonize other planets.

    First of all, what is the need of settling Mars, if not to satisfy the ego of 21st century manifest destiny? Earth has its overpopulation and resource problems, but we are still safely far from the brink of those issues. Besides, is this a way of abandoning hope? Earth is gonna be gone, so lets try another planet? Absurd!

    Any efforts to bring large scale colonization on Mars would be prohibitively complicated, time consuming and expensive. Even if habitation is possible, there will definitely need to be some way for man to prepare for colonies and deal with such issues as temperature and air composition. It's not as simple as fly in spaceships and build a new world. The costs of settling and transporting people to Mars en masse would be exhorbitant. Maybe 10-20 people can fit on a space shuttle, and those trips cost billions and take months to prepare, as shown by NASA's adventures. It definitely wont happen on a large scale.

    It's a good idea, scientists, but why waste effort on idealistic dreams of settling other planets? I'd rather see our great scientific minds work to fix the growing shortage of resources here on Earth.

  • Things were looking grim there for a while, when the fifth air-drop failed and crunched up the floor pieces and some of the equipment (and let's skip the obvious "simulating NASA-based Mars mission" jokes), but they still managed to put things together; cool!

  • It's a necessary step on our way out of the solar system. FACT: One Day, SOL, our star WILL die. When it does, if WE have not managed to get off this mud ball, EVERYTHING we've ever done, been, accomplished or even dreamed will be winked out of existance.


    Fawking Trolls! [slashdot.org]
  • You should check out the

    "July 11: Devon Island Dangers Find out why shotgun training is mandatory." video

    Man, the People Eating Tasty Animals group sure is going to be all over this one...

    #Haha, I just made a funny =)

  • oh sure, you'd really have everyone's support then.
  • I wonder if they would send the criminals other planets maybe all the MPAA and RIAA could be sent

  • One (very) small step.. (Score:3)

    by ClayJar ( 126217 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @06:34PM (#890110) Homepage
    It seems that although this could prove to be a good place to try out some of the "new technologies" that will be needed for a Mars mission, they will have to do a whole lot more before they show that a mission is feasible. Of course, that all comes later.

    What I'm wondering is whether they're going to have some of the problems that the various "biosphere" projects had in the past (judging from some quite old Popular Science magazines I had a while back). A big problem with any Mars mission would seem to be the time from landing to liftoff at Mars.

    Unlike a short-term near-earth mission, if there is any problem, even small, it has a lot more time to add up. In other words, an "Apollo 13"-style rescue operation would likely have much less chance of succeeding, and what would happen to the space program if we landed humans on Mars and then had to watch them slowly die of exposure.

    That's my greatest concern. All previous space disasters involving human lives were quick. While they devastated the emotions of the whole country/world, we moved on. If the public had to watch a Mars team die slowly over the course of weeks, maybe more, it could set the space program back tremendously.

    On the other hand, it could end up being a rallying point. The casulties of space could end up strengthening the will of the world to make it off this planet and back, but that's not something I think anyone wants to test.

    Anyway, good luck to the Mars Society, and I hope I live to see humans set foot on another world. (Actually, I hope I live to do that myself, but that might take a while.)
  • I'm glad to see that we are finaly doing something about getting to another planet. There's no possible way we can sustain the current way of life we have without colonization... I can't wait, sign me up!
  • How ironic! The moon landings were faked in Canada too...

    Mike van Lammeren
  • Uh, they're not trying to simulate *Martian* life. Rather, they are simulating what it would be like for *humans* to live on mars in the context of a manned mission. Why don't you read some of the actual information before posting, OK big fella?

    -Vercingetorix
  • I'd live on another planet just to get away from all the idiots around where I live... they're taking over!

    --

  • i couldn't possibly live on mars... (Score:4)

    by fluxrad ( 125130 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @06:43PM (#890115)
    A cat-5 cable can be how long again??


    FluX
    After 16 years, MTV has finally completed its deevolution into the shiny things network

  • huh? (Score:1)

    by craw ( 6958 )
    I appreciate the effort, but I don't understand what the hell this proves. The martian environment is relatively different than that on this planet. Air, distance, food, heating, etc... need to be addressed. Is this the first step to solving these problems? In my IMHO, no.

    Okay, it is cold. Hmmm, I think that this problem has been addressed by ppl that have gone to other cold places on this planet.

    What about water?

    Okay, water on Mars has been proposed. OTOH, it has been also proposed that landing a lander (using rocket engines) may cause the release of shallow sub-surface volatilies (e.g., solid methane). This is rather nasty as it means that a potentially good landing site is inherently unstable. I don't necessarily agree with this, but it is very interesting.

  • I would leave tomorrow. I would leave my wife and kid to go, even if it meant I would never come back. They know that and understand it. The opportunity would be greater than anything mankind has had before. I could not help but go.

    -Vercingetorix

  • The area around Sudbury has gotten much better than it was when it was used to simulate the moon.

    Now they are using the Great White North to simulate Mars.

    Fortunately the smog in Toronto doesn't match the conditions on Venus yet.

  • Perhaps you're just a complete moron, but unless you were an anacephallic baby, you COULDN'T possibly have missed the part where I said it was a necessary STEP - as in one of many other STEPS necessary to get us off this planet, and ultimately out of this solar system.

    Please enage brain before posting.

    Fawking moron.


    Fawking Trolls! [slashdot.org]

  • Okay, I'll bite...

    Sure, I want to go to Mars. (Actually, I want to visit other places in the Solar system as well, but Mars is a good first stop...) Sure the creature comforts would be on the sparse side. So? "Sorry, I won't be climbing Mt. Everest with you; the nearest Blockbuster is 500 miles away!" Those "early adopters" helped settle the "New World" a few hundred years ago.

    Can I explain why I want to go to Mars? No, not yet. I've been trying for years, and so far, people either get it (and don't have to ask the question), or they don't and can't. The scene in Contact where Bryant Gumbal (sp?) is asking Ellie (Jodi Foster), why she's willing to risk her life "in the chair" is a clear example of this; to me (and only a couple other people I've discussed this with) this was a clearly stupid question. But to most people it is as valid as it is puzzling.

    I could resort to clichés like "Because it's there." or pick at your "home of humanity" metaphor and suggest that I feel its time to leave home and strike out on my own. But the truth is simpler; I want to go. I am not only ready to sacrifice the local scenery (I live in the mountains just west of Denver), but I'm also abandoning a 16 year career in IT (this Friday, in fact) so that I can pursue an educational path which (I hope) will lead to participating directly in space exploration in the near future.

  • Manned Rover Design for Artic Base (Score:5)

    by wstrong ( 21678 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @06:49PM (#890121) Homepage
    The Michigan Chapter of the Mars Society is competing in the manned rover design contest. [digi3d.com]

    This rover would be used by the Artic Base simulated missions. It is also an investigation into what is possible with a Martian rover.
    It will be presented at the Mars Society conference in Toronto in 10 days.

    You can see an image of the
    Exterior [digi3d.com]
    and the
    Interior [digi3d.com]

    Email our team [mailto] for more information.
    This vehicle will be constructed in the next year or two.

    ----
    Warren Strong
    Life Support & Internal Systems Design Leader
    Michigan Mars Rover Design Project

  • The newest reality show (Score:4)

    by fenix down ( 206580 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @06:50PM (#890122)
    Coming soon to CBS...
    BIG MARS SURVIVOR!
    16 people locked in a simulated Martian colony on a frozen island with cameras in the bathrooms! Go to our gif-ridden website and vote to see who gets kicked out of the colony and forced to swim back to civilization. No sissy boat ride on this show! These people are SURVIVORS!

    If the fad doesn't run out before we're done then we'll have part two: CBS EXECUTIVES ON THEIR WAY TO THE SUN SURVIVOR!

  • Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:3)

    by BrianH ( 13460 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @06:53PM (#890123)
    Hmmm...would I ever want to abandon Earth, home to several billion too many members of humanity, and all of its elitist mountain getaways, polluted oceans, and clear-cut forests to go live on an unexplored virgin planet with limitless possibilities? In a heartbeat.

    It's all a matter of point of view. I'm willing to forgoe the comforts and safety of civilization to lay my eyes on things never before seen by mankind. I'm willing to break my back building a new world, just so I can sit back at the end of the day and say "Wow! I did that!" It's the same thing that makes me climb mountains and take up eco-treks...only on a much grander scale :)
  • Would you really want to abandon the Earth, home of humanity for many millenia, and all of its scenic mountains, awe-inspiring oceans, and beautiful forests to go live on a God-forsaken hump of red rock?

    Hey, that's how new civilizations come into being, right? If the passengers of the Mayflower had thought the same, where would America have been now? Having built a civilization almost from scratch, they seem to have done rather well. I don't see why this kind of thing shouldn't work for colonizing Mars as well.

    Of course, as time progresses, the Mars-resident humans will resent the colonialism of the Earthlings, and if America's history is any indication, Mars will soon sever political ties with earth; all of Asimov's and Bradbury's inter-planetary and inter-stellar rebellion tales will be enacted out in full. Soon we shall have an independent Mars. ;-)

    My estimate for the time-frame for the above events is about three to five centuries. What do you think?

    That aside, your point about first settlement on a God-forsaken lump of red rock is well taken: I wouldn't want to be the first one to settle there either.

  • According to recent experiments performed at the new Flashline Mars Arctic Research Station in the Canadian Arctic, it has been discovered that there are Penguins on Mars!
  • One of the JPEGs on the first page shows a guy putting around on a Yamaha quad runner. How the hell is that supposed to work on a planet with little or no oxygen? I thought internal combustion engines required the ability to, oh, I don't know, combust.
  • Hey kid, you're right. We don't know what life on Mars is like. We know what the probable parameters are,] but this does not fully describe the experience? IMHO, no. Is this a publicity stunt? IMHO, yes. Get real with a realistic appraisal? IMHO, yes.

    I am kissing your ass (and the trolls will pipe in), but you raise good points that are worth thinking about.

  • Smells like bad science to me... (Score:3)

    by smoondog ( 85133 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @07:05PM (#890128)
    Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your perspective), no where on earth even comes close to reproducing the martian landscape. Pressure, temperature, atmosphere, gravity, light, length of day, seasons, etc are all not reproduced adequately there. Just because it looks like mars doesn't mean that the reality makes it like mars. Sounds like a PR stunt to make a show for Discovery channel. A PR stunt isn't a bad thing, necessarily, it just doesn't make for good science. Remember that biosphere, thing?


    -- Moondog

  • Mars on Earth Summer 2000 Field Season (Score:3)

    by Phrogman ( 80473 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @07:05PM (#890129)
    SpaceRef.com [spaceref.com] has a whole section of their site [spaceref.com] devoted to providing information on the HMP/Mars project up in Haughton Crater. Marc Boucher of Spaceref is up in Haughton Crater as part of the NASA team and is the webmaster for the site. The latest entries from his personal journal are located here [spaceref.com].
  • Of course, at the time the Sun dies, human beings will no longer exist, despite many bad SF novels to the contrary. I'm not talking about nuclear wars or environmental collapse (although certainly, those are possible), I'm simply talking about simple biological evolution. Species simply don't last billions of years. Let the intelligent squid-people of the future become calamari -- we don't owe them a cent.
  • Aw man, when I first glanced at the post, I read it as 'Stimulating Life of the Red Planet', and thought, 'Cool, we're finally going to teraform that thing'

    What a bummer that we are simulting life, it we want a self sustaining colony on mars we need to start terra forming the planet. We should start by dusting the surface with cyanobacteria. Some species can exist on carbon dioxide, water, sun, and sold rocks. THis would start to oxygenate the atmosphere and begin to build a carbon soil layer.

    So, lets get to work! Since NASA is so good a crashing things on mars, lets just start pummelling it with canisters of bacteria.

    JungleBoy
  • Of course, as time progresses, the Mars-resident humans will resent the colonialism of the Earthlings, and if America's history is any indication, Mars will soon sever political ties with earth; all of Asimov's and Bradbury's inter-planetary and inter-stellar rebellion tales will be enacted out in full. Soon we shall have an independent Mars.

    You ever think that this is one reason why Congress and other politicos aren't thrilled with launching colonies in space and on other planets? Not the only reason, mind you, but one of them.

  • The point is that in the far arctic it's a) very barren; you can't really derive anything from the land
    b) Very remote. Just consider how LONG it takes to get from the nearest supply depot to where they are. It's FAR.
    c) Wierd day & night cycle; it's certainly not a nice 24 hour cycle like we are used to.
  • I think maybe he meant, it would be cool if we finally took a first step.

    Anyway living off of your own refuse in the arctic is kinda cool... not

  • it looks like they're planning on having macs [fluidthoughts.com] on mars....

  • I remember something about the US having some law or such against colonization.. could this possibly include other planets? although I doubt we'd (the US) obide by that. we've destroyed pretty much every other right and abused every law in this country.

    -Drk

  • The suburbs of Mars (Score:3)

    by DHartung ( 13689 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @07:33PM (#890137) Homepage
    I don't mean to rain on NASA's parade, but, seriously, who would want to live on other planets? Personally, I'd be extremely reluctant to leave everything I know behind on Earth and ship myself off to another planet where living conditions would likely be much poorer (at least at first) -- especially knowing that I'd probably never be able to come back.

    You're looking at moving to Mars like moving to the suburbs. Where are the movie theatres? Is there a public swimming pool nearby? Are the schools any good?

    Frankly, the people moving to Mars (and there will be, not if, just when) aren't looking for creature comforts. They're looking for adventure -- a once-in-many-lifetimes adventure; looking for a challenge; looking to escape poverty, or repression (political; religious; ethnic; take your pick); looking just to get away from it all. These kinds of people have always existed, and they have always driven exploration and colonization movements. Right now people like this, in America, often go to places like Alaska; even though they grew up in cushy California exurbia, they now live in remote cabins and see people once every three months. Yes, it's an unusual way to live your life ... but then, you don't see these people in your life because they've all gone elsewhere. Maybe they're living on an oil platform with 25 guys who speak Arabic, or taking an HVAC job in Antarctica. They may be Turks living in Germany, or Kazakhs living in Chicago, or Chinese living in Peru. Just because you're not one of them, don't believe they don't exist.

    Before you hit that reply button to flame me, sit back and think what you would really do if you could leave on a space shuttle for Mars tomorrow. Would you really want to abandon the Earth, home of humanity for many millenia, and all of its scenic mountains, awe-inspiring oceans, and beautiful forests to go live on a God-forsaken hump of red rock? I think not.

    No flame. Just a straight-up Jerry-Springer-show "You don't know me!" Face it: you may be right that most people are like you, but fortunately for humanity, not all people are.
    ----
  • How are they going to simulate the random NASA probe hurtling uncontrollably towards the ground?
  • I think with the recent improvements in propulsion technologies like ion plasma they are discussing the capability to make the trip in around 90 days (each way)at speeds sufficiently greater than anything we have put out to date. Maybe if they combined this with a dual launch like NASA used to do in the 70's with the viking and voyager craft they could sufficiently decrease the tragedy dilema that so many people are concerned with. This would increse costs (about 1.5x the cost of a single habitat...just a guess) but also provide an extra benefit, if two habitats go there only one needs to comeback and thus our first permanent building on another planet.Also, remember astrounauts are a different breed: they would gladly take the chance at the opportunity to do this. I know I would, probably for selfish reasons mind you but the 'good of all man kind' would make an excellent cover.
  • Mars probably not. However I would love to move to the moon. On weekends I could come home and visit the family. :-)

    Seriously, one thing that most people forget is that to settle space in any serious way one of the first steps necessary is to settle the Moon. The moon has a gravity well that requires 1/20 the energy to climb out of. As well as the regolith on the surface of the moon has most of the materials we need to further exploration of space. We need to concentrate more on this than mars today.
  • I have to admit I wouldn't go. Not now. Visit, maybe. Not that I'm one of those 'Let's solve our problems here first!/Won't-somebody-please-think-of-the-children ??' reactionaries. Just it'd be harder for me to build better technology if I was struggling for survival, and I'd rather be building better technology (yes, specifically space related stuff).
    Colonization of Mars will happen just like any other frontier. It'll attract people who don't have a whole lot to look forward to in the status quo ("The Other Shoe", anyone?), people looking for economic opportunity (land prospectors, gold rush crazies, etc..imagine if you got up there now and cornered the water market on Mars..you'd be pretty rich later on, although a Total Recall-esque Mars regime leaves a bad taste in my mouth).
    When people packed their bags to move to the western US, they'd often simply liquidate all their belongings, their life savings, etc. to pay for it. If a family had all their insurance policies bought out, sold their house and cars, all their possessions, cashed in retirement funds, they could probably afford a trip to Mars within a few decades.
    I just hope this time there aren't any Native Americans/Martians that have to get slaughtered in droves before the rest of the human race feels like joining the first settlers.

  • You remind me of a quote (Score:3)

    by MagPulse ( 316 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @07:55PM (#890142)
    "I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." - Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943
    Can you imagine? More than five organizations wanting these big huge computers?

    Why will we colonize planets? Well, why did we colonize America? It was a long hard voyage across the ocean. Lots of people were comfortable right where they were.

    But people had to flee their opressive country you say? We have incentive too.. to make sure World War III doesn't make us extinct.

  • Wow, when I first read this, I parsed it as "Stimulating Life on the Red Planet"! Visions of NASA terraforming Mars danced infront of my eyes. Next, I reinterpreted it as stimulating native martian life forms to grow and proliferate in a lab on earth. Still reading "stimulating", I was expecting an article of the "stimulating night life and culture" on Mars. No such luck. Of course, now that I know what it *really* says, I still keep thinking that the hidden message is really that NASA is simulating martian life forms by genetically engineering bacteria that could have evolved there...

    Too many conspiracies, not enough coffee!
  • How about me make sure there is no live there first? Maybe before we go around causing a huge genocide of whatever might be there, we can get multiple samples of dirt back. Perhaps even send a few humans over there. Maybe humans can be smart for once and quadruple check everything before destroying another planet. But what if something alive is found? Even if it is micro single celled organisms / virii? Does humankind bypass the planet, or do we consider the life that grew independent of Earth a casualty in human progress?
  • I have always been amused that we simulate a Mars-like environment here on Earth, in preparation for a journey to the Red Planet. The usual political line, and that of science as well, has always been that when we get to Mars, the things we learn will help us understand Earth better. Yet, we use our understanding of Earth to get to Mars.

    A woman using her understanding of me to try to help me understand her? Hasn't worked yet. :)

  • One more step toward nuclear war. (Score:3)

    by TheDullBlade ( 28998 ) on Monday July 31, 2000 @08:00PM (#890146)
    No joke. I think a nuclear war will wipe out the population of Earth shortly after we establish a viable free-roaming population off Earth.

    People won't nuke their own planet, it just doesn't take that many bombs to make a planet unlivable. However, Earth will indefinitely continue to be the ultimate desirable living space and will be the focus of religious obsession for spacefarers. Whether it's "those degenerates who stayed behind and are destroying what's left of the Cradle of Man" or "the infidels who are standing in the way of Our Glorious Return," a few nukes (or big rocks, for that matter) here and there will seem acceptable. Of course, then a few more will seem acceptable, until all Holy Terra goes up in a holy fire.

    I personally think that many people in high places have come to the same conclusion, and this is why space travel is so expensive. Our own little Bureau of Sabotage or I-A (see Frank Herbert's "The Dosadi Experiment" or "The Godmakers") to toss a monkey-wrench into things that will lead to planetary destruction, like space travel. I'm generally not big on conspiracy theories, but I think the surface facts of how we've avoided nuclear war thus far are simply incredible without some other organized effort.

    I don't know about you guys, but I'm not going to hang back when people start moving out.

    ---
    Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
  • The point is that in the far arctic it's

    Remoteness can be simulated. You want to simulate being remote from 24 hr pizza. Just don't order pizza at 3a.m. Simple. Barren can be simulated too. My highschool gym was completely devoid of plant life. Just like mars. The weird day and night cycle may be a little tougher unless you want to stay indoors where Thomas Edison's Amazing Invention can simulate any damn cycle you like. BTW, the arctic day/night cycle is still 24 hrs...

    Let's look at the important stuff this does not simulate:

    1. Gravity in Canada is the same as in the United States. The problem, though, is that it's different on Mars.
    2. Certain metropolitan centres excepted, the air in the US is as breathable as in Canada... but on Mars, it's a different kettle of... air(?)
    3. Atmospheric pressure. Same here. Different there.
    4. UV radiation. What's the SPF of a space suit? Will my solar-powered beowulf cluster of palm pilots work on mars? A trip to Canada's Big Underdeveloped Simuland won't answer these questions.
    5. Soil composition. Mars is the red planet. Nunavet is the white (and sometimes brown) territory. Hm. Must be different rocks.

    Really, the only thing that northern Canada and Mars have in common is scenery and temperature. A couple of good Leibert air conditioners on a Holywood set could get that done in a thrice.

  • ...that Mars is inhabited by a single sapient subariessian slime-mold colony that controls the weather and is currently in its semi-dormant period.

    What do you think is interfering with all the Mars probes? What do you think makes the canals appear and disappear?

    ---
    Despite rumors to the contrary, I am not a turnip.
  • Before you hit that reply button to flame me, sit back and think what you would really do

    I would sit at home with my juicer, fat net connection and enjoy strolls in the park without the aid of $300,000 worth of specialized clothing.

    however, my grandmother got on a leaky boat with 5 shillings in her pocket and left ireland to go to a country where she knew no-one, was destined to be the target of serious discrimination (the irish had a tough time until ww2...) and wound up in a land where the vast majority of people didn't even speak her language (Quebec). My grandmother.

    If you discover it, people will settle.

  • Here's an opinion not expressed in the (>2) replies so far;

    If Earth is the only place humans exist, we're a really small target for extinction.

    If we don't find a way off this rock it's only a matter of time before a football field-sized meteor nukes most or all of the population out of existance. The universe is not a friendly place, you don't want to make it too easy for humanity to be snuffed out.

    I might not want to be a Mars explorer, but I'd certainly be interested in being a Mars settler...

  • If the public had to watch a Mars team die slowly over the course of weeks, maybe more, it could set the space program back tremendously If you seriously belive there wouldn't be some suspicious communication failure in such an event you're kidding yourself.

    Anyway, there's always a price to be paid for progress. "You can always tell the pioneers - they're the ones face down in the dirt with arrows in their backs." Doesn't mean you don't do it.

  • First of all, what is the need of settling Mars, if not to satisfy the ego of 21st century manifest destiny?

    I doubt they're too concerned about colonizing yet. There are considerable benefits, however, in simply visiting mars.

    The main one is for scientific knowledge - we have never even brought anything back from mars, no lab has ever had a sample of martian soil to analyse. Being able to examine another planet's geology and atmosphere in detail will be extremely rewarding. Not to mention the possiblity of life, even if only long-dead bacteria.

    Another big reason is industry - what if huge deposits of valuable minerals were found? It could become worth it to actually travel there.

    And lastly, all the things which get to be "first ... on mars!" OK, pretty trivial, but the first movie made on mars could be good.

    As for the earth's current problems - I believe all the technical solutions necessary are already here. The problems are political, economic and social and thus beyond the capability of any scientist to fix.

  • Sounds like a PR stunt to make a show for Discovery channel
    Finally, something new and interesting to look for on the Discovery Channel.

    Seriously, this is as much a test of the "human spirit" as it is any scientific project. Lack of gravity on Mars will be an issue, as will lack of atmosphere, but you've got to start testing the ideas somewhere...

    BTW: that biosphere proved that the people involved had a long way to go (If I recall, they had to open the door several times just for air and once for pizza).

  • multiply by 10, silly! You use fiber for gigabit ethernet, and cat5 for 10/100 stuff.
  • Awh I loved all of those beaver learning to build the dam stories. Or how about the mating habits of the southern blue-titted boobie (a real corker!).

    Most of Discovery is a publicity vechile for NASA Space Exploration anyway. It seems they are the only modern programming. The rest seems to consist of old 60-70's style documentaries.....

    Anyway's lost the point of why I was writing

    Bye Bye
  • Intelligent life (AFAWK) has not been around for long enough for you to be able to say this. The evolutionary advantage of intelligence has yet to be determined. Come back in a billion years and we'll talk.

    Besides which, I'm sure some forms of bacteria have survived essentially unchanged on such timescales.

  • Actually, they've already covered that. One of the air-drops of supplies hit their shelter a week or two ago. :)

  • I wonder why this story wasn't consider Newsworthy for Nerds when I submitted it in the same Slashdot category 10 days ago?

    *Grumble. Whine.* Methinks maybe Hemos is prejudiced agaist Coyotes and in favour of Wolves.

    Anyway, I am glad to see that at least they finally did see fit to post the story even if someone else gets the credit for the submission. This is a very practical and important step in preparing for the eventual (and hopefully inevitible) human journeying to Mars.

    The last time humans ventured out of near Earth orbit over a GENERATION ago. It is something one can only read about in the history books, not something in today's news. Come on, let's get back out there!

    I would go howl at the moon now, but it's not out tonight, so... I guess I'll just go and howl.


    Trickster Coyote
  • Okay, I can see why an arctic desert environment is useful for simulating marsian terrain and temperature, but shouldn't we be considering the gravity difference in designing rovers and other large engineering projects that are meant for use on Mars? I realise that the Mars Society's contest is "an Operational, rather than an Engineering test-bed", but this still seems like a waste of time, especially considering the use of internal combustion and lack of pressurizing, on top of having to engineer it for Earth gravity...

    Nice images, the exterior could really use something to give it scale though. I wonder about the wisdom of loose chairs, especially with wheels if this thing is supposed to be doing any signifigant crater & boulder navigating (and the rules say it should).

    Oh well, don't mind me, I'm just cynical about the Mars Society. They come across as kids playing spaceman, all hoping they can get involved in the real thing, if they can just get anyone else to care.
  • Wouldn't it be more efficient to just nuke the Mars colony? Then everybody's happy.
  • I'm not too interested in being one of the "first hundred" (not that I've any skills to contribute to such a group, but I digress), but I'd definately want to be in the first million or so. Anyplace where I'm never blinded by the sun (seriously, I can't see anything when the sun is within 20 degrees of the horizon, its just too bright for my poor eyes), the bloody temperature doesn't go up to thirty odd degrees for months at a time (cold, I can live with, more heat is easy to accomplish, less is hard), not surrounded by crowds (I'm practically an ochlophobe), merit truly matters beyond prejudices, where the society and culture aren't too ingrained to be massively changes without violent revolution, is somewhere I'd like to be...
  • Well, those problematic biosphere projects instigated a fair amount of the current "reduced calorie diet" (god I love euphamisms...) research that's going on these days.

    I think an Apollo13 type problem wouldn't even get to the comms blackout stage, just because of transmission delays (assuming they're at least close to the destination already).

    As far watching them die slowly, I don't think the public would actually get to watch the vid feeds of slowly starving and/or asphixiating(sp?) astronauts. There'd be lots of coverage, but no way NASA lets us watch people in the process of dying...
  • Always, always be part of the group that's throwing the planet-killer asteroids around...
  • I don't mean to rain on NASA's parade, but, seriously, who would want to live on other planets?

    Well, besides the grand dreams of boldly going where no one has gone before, (which would be reason enough for me, even if it was a one way trip), Mars would be a great place for an offshore data haven. Sure, the pings times would be dreadful, but those corporate lawyer types would have one hell of a time trying to shut down your servers!


    Trickster Coyote
  • Kim Stanley Robinson's trilogy (Red, Blue and Green Mars), concludes just that. They spend a few years narowing down the final 100 member team for the mars exploration/colonization. About midway through the flight there, somebody realizes that the 100 people they sent are all secretly INSANE.
  • who would want to live on other planets?

    I would -- unless it would mean living in an ice cave and trying to survive solid methane storms and fighting boredom by playing with Perky Pat dolls and drugs (damn, what was that P.K. Dick's book? The Three Stigmata [of something]).

    I've always dreamt of getting a chance to at least orbit the Earth in my lifetime (I'm 27 now), but seeing how slowly the space exploration and space flight commercialisation is going, it looks increasingly improbable. I'll probably have to stick to lesser goals, like getting a ride in a real fighter jet (MiG-29 or F-14/15/18).

  • We're all doomed anyway, because one day ALL stars will die. Either that, or Big Crunch. Have another beer.

    Of course we probably will be winked out of existance much, much sooner, but those are hard limits.
    --

  • Consider losing the casters on the swivel chairs. :-) Mars is *bumpy*.
    --
  • this is a short and poorly grammared response (as you can already tell)

    but the point is thus:
    i posed a similar question in my astrobiology class last term, and 3/4 of the class shared my (and your) view: that we'd be willing to give everything up and go if the chance existed. granted, 3/4 of the class was only about 10 people, but i'm sure there's more out there, too.

    off topic ... maybe /. should post a poll "would you be willing to live the rest of your life on mars if the opportunity presented itself? 'yes','no','cowboy neal','grits','i hate these options'"

  • Depends what your definition is.............

    I have actually been married for 6 years quite happily to a woman, I am a hetero-sexual and always have been always will be I have no interest in the gay lifestyle unlike some of the people that I know. PS. Some of those guy's would probably crack your fucking skull for your point of view......

    But perhaps it takes more than the brains of an amoeba to realise that you do not need to be gay to realise that you can defend their lifestyle.

    If you are refering to me being a faggot in the traditional English sense then I am certainly not a piece of kindling.... Look it up do you know what a book is??

    PS There have been recent studies done to actually show those that are most homophobic do it because they seem to display those same tendancies themselves, they are "revolted" by what they consider abnormal and therefore act out their aggression on others. I am confident in my sexuality, I have been laid and continue to get laid on average 3 times a week (by a woman, sometimes even 2!!).....

    If you are a homophobe which you obivously are maybe you are the one that is confused. If this is the case perhaps you should give it a go....you might be the one in denial I know who I am and am comfortable in my hetero-sexual lifestyle are you equally comfortable, if not perhaps try it you might like it!!!

    Otherwise you redneck motherfucker fuck you and the whole of your inbred fucking viewpoint....

    If there are to many big words here remember look at a book yes they are the ones without pictures in them, yeh the ones you do not need to colour in..............

  • How can the simulate the different gravity?
    Considering that actual humans haven't even landed on Mars yet, I think it's a little early to think about how we'll actually live there. Remember what happened to 'By the year 2000, people will be living on the moon' - when was the last time humans went there? (BTW Read Ben Elton's 'Stark', that gives a very probable explanation why we haven't...)

    Richy C. [beebware.com]
    --

  • Well, there are speculative ways to avoid the final death of life in the Universe...

    • If we are headed for a Big Crunch then given certain conditions it may turn out that Tipler is right after all, and an infinite amount of computation may be possible before the end, allowing everyone to be resurrected as perfect emulations by his Omega Point God. Although proper time would be finite, subjective time would be infinite due to the infinite computational power available. See his book The Physics of Immortality for more information.
    • OTOH if we live in an open Universe then we face the inevitability of heat death. In this case survival becomes a matter of firstly aborbing energy from stars as they cool from white dwarves to black dwarves, then from neutron stars and finally from the massive black holes that will be the only thing left (apart from a few stray electrons and positrons)... In this increasingly low energy-density situation you survive by slowing your subjective time down - each second of thought actually takes a millenia in proper time. To you it makes no difference. As for form, it can be made up from nets of electrons or positrons (probably the only remaining matter) or pure quantum wave-functions...
  • I don't mean to rain on NASA's parade, but, seriously, who would want to live on other planets?

    You are kidding, right? Millions of people have emigrated to the US (not to mention Australia, Canada, etc) because of the prospect of making a better life for themselves and their families.

    I see no reason that Mars, given there is the basis for a sustainable economy (there's likely to be some pretty damn pure metal ores, for one thing), wouldn't be the same.

  • The Physics of Immortality? Last time I checked, /. has Science category but not Crackpot Science. But of course there are always secret sids...

    As for the second possibility, I really don't know. Don't quantum effects prevent you from running on arbitrary low power, or something?
    --

  • I really doubt that thing would work on mars.
    I think that there is way to much external hydraulics, suspension etc. You would have dust all over it..

    Why so small wheels ?
    Mars is much lower G than earth, those wheels would get stuck in the dust easily.

    I'm re-reading Kim Stanley Robinsons Red/Blue/Green Mars series now and I really think he has some good ideas on how to do it.
  • Erm.. eh... oh, right. That guy has to learn how to spell, eh? Well, if that's the case, you, sir, needs to learn some fucking grammar.

    "Learn to spell faggot", eh? Make that "Learn to spell, faggot", and you're closer to the real deal.

    "Your making Slashdot...", eh? Make that "You're making Slashdot...".

    BTW, "grammer" eh? "grammar", you fucking dolt.

    Next time, before you rag down on someone's spelling, make sure your own posting is spot-on perfect. Otherwise you'll just look like a fucking idiot... just like you just managed to do just now.
  • Sometimes we like to play around, swinger it is!!

  • The Physics of Immortality? Last time I checked, /. has Science category but not Crackpot Science. But of course there are always secret sids...

    Well, I certainly don't agree with a lot of the conclusions he draws in the book, but then again neither does he apparently. But the bits about the availability of energy from gravitational shear in a collapsing Universe may have validity - I don't know enough about global general relativity or quantum cosmology to know for sure :)

    As for the second possibility, I really don't know. Don't quantum effects prevent you from running on arbitrary low power, or something?

    In what sense? I suppose that since energy is quantised there is a lower bound to the amount you can use in one go, but when you aren't concerned with timescales then the amount doesn't matter. Or what about a way to extract energy from the expansion of space-time? That's a real "last ditch" energy source :)

  • If there is some type of control on /. can this thread now be terminated. I know the irony of what I am saying I have contributed twice to it! (See studying logic is paying of ma!!) -Once in response to a bigot the other in response to a question??

    This discussion is about MARS COLONISATION a topic that I would love to here ideas from as I have learnt there are many intelligent and insightful posts to be read on /. in many areas in which I consider myself a mere amoeba. Please finish with this pointless excuse for a post. Otherwise come up with something at least remotely intelligent. You are like self-propagating genes with this thing.......

    Naturally select this bastard out....

    Peace Love and Mung Beans to the rest of you out there!!!

  • Not science. Practical engineering. (Score:3)

    by DHartung ( 13689 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2000 @02:00AM (#890181) Homepage
    Nowhere is the Devon Island project being billed as "science". Of course we cannot do Mars "science" on Earth, that would be nonsensical. This project is about the practical knowledge needed to support a long-term habitat on another planet.

    "The outpost is not intended to be a high-fidelity mockup of a martian outpost, with regenerative systems and enclosed life support. Rather, the point of the habitat is to learn how to operate on Mars, to coordinate the people, robots, vehicles and mission control centers."

    (Right there on the Discovery website you didn't read.) [discovery.com]

    To some extent this is above all a public relations project ("stunt" being in the eye of the beholder). The Mars Society, though, is all about making Mars exploration practical. This isn't so much a "science experiment" as it is a dry run using the model proposed by Dr. Robert Zubrin, the society's president. It's a learning experiment, in other words.

    NASA does plenty of pure research science in this area -- for example, astronauts have spent months at a time in very rigorous closed systems that test air and water recycling technologies. (This is much like Biosphere, actually, but with experimental controls.) But NASA is barred by Congress from funding almost anything resembling true preparation for a Mars mission. The Mars Society is seeking to fill that niche with the Devon Island station.

    Don't think of this as science, because it isn't about getting scientific results. It's about learning what works and what doesn't so that when we DO go to Mars we have plenty of foreknowledge.

    It's also about education, about public outreach, and about motivating the troops. And last but not least, it's our (the Mars Society's) money -- we can spend it any way we like. So there!
    ----
  • Speculative is that what they call BULLSHIT where you come from....

    It is quite amazing how many cranks there are that revert to using Quantum Physics without truly understanding it's implications shit there are only a couple of thousand people who can seriously grasp the complexity of the whole thing.

    While you at it why don't you explain turbulence to as as well!!!

    Physics of Immortality- is this required reading down at your nearest High School or University. They probably use it to wipe their asses with dowm at MIT.

    "Subjective Time" - refer to the Theory of Relativity you dolt or read some Einstein, Penrose, Hawking, Davies etc ad infinitum. Your not telling us anything new.

    In case you are stuck back in the 1800's please read some recent findings into the nature of our Universe, might I suggest NASA or even the MIT websites, if that is to much why not watch some Discovery channel!!!

    By the way your Black Hole thing you will still suffer the same fate that of becoming part of the singularity which they emanate from (now this is speculation but alot better than your pseudo-bullshit!!)

    Why not just sit around chanting!!!!
  • Jeez, I knew you Americans always considered the Canucks to be a bit strange, but now they are extra-terrestrials ?

  • Thank you for replying to this guy, perhaps he forgot to read the back page! Sponsored by MAD Magazine.

    Thank you for bringing a bit of sanity to this man!!!
  • I'd like to respond in more detail, but it all comes down to your final, appallingly ignorant line:

    Emerson Williwick wrote:

    It's a good idea, scientists, but why waste effort on idealistic dreams of settling other planets? I'd rather see our great scientific minds work to fix the growing shortage of resources here on Earth.

    First of all, some of us do NOT believe that these dreams are at all idealistic. They are practical, they are achievable, and they represent the future of the human race. How silly to think that interplanetary exploration is within our grasp, and we won't take it! (I won't even address the vast array of misinformation you throw about regarding the cost and feasibility of Mars missions; it's plain you just don't know moe than you've learned from headlines.)

    But second: the growing shortage of resources here on Earth exists for one simple reason, because Earth is finite. What resources would you have scientists conjure up? Star Trek style mass replicators? Shall we grow a continent of jungle, compress it beneath the sea, and thereby create new sources of oil and coal?

    Certainly for the short-term humans will not completely use up all our resources, and even those we use up we will find substitutes for. Whether it's petroleum or simply the ever-useful copper, we'll have to face up one day to the fact that it's all been used and the rest is too expensive to mine. At that point getting resources from off-Earth sources, like asteroids, becomes not only feasible but economically necessary.

    Earth is finite. You can't change that fact. What you can change is whether or not Earth is the finite boundary of human society.
    ----
  • Intelligent life (AFAWK) has not been around for long enough for you to be able to say this. The evolutionary advantage of intelligence has yet to be determined. Come back in a billion years and we'll talk.

    Perhaps no intelligent life at at will exist then. That's certainly a possibility too. I used the rather facetious example of squid people to remind one that if future intelligent races of life exist on Earth, there is no reason to believe that they will be (like the "Star Child" in 2001) descendants of humanity.

    Besides which, I'm sure some forms of bacteria have survived essentially unchanged on such timescales.

    No. As someone with a doctorate in microbiology, I can assure you that bacteria actually evolve faster than eukaryotes.

  • Re:Will extraplanetary settlement ever catch on? (Score:3)

    by bfree ( 113420 ) on Tuesday August 01, 2000 @03:05AM (#890192)
    Seriously, one thing that most people forget is that to settle space in any serious way one of the first steps necessary is to settle the Moon. The moon has a gravity well that requires 1/20 the energy to climb out of.
    The bane of space travel is the gravity well and simply settling the moon will make a minor difference to settling mars. The problem would remain that right now we have everything on earth, and to move to the moon we will need to shift large amounts of resources up there. If we were then to move on to mars, we would need to move large amounts of items from the earth to the moon to mars, or even create them on the moon, but ultimatley we will still have to drive large masses though gravity wells.
    The first step to any reasonable form of space exploration is the building of a space elevator here on earth. With this in place the earths gravity well is virtually removed from the equation (and will be as soon as we can start using the elevator to net shift nothing from the earth, i.e. put up and take down the same masses). The next step would be to arrive at the moon and build an elevator there, then mars. Once we have the practice at putting these up on remote worlds we can start to look at improving flight times (when we no longer have to design our craft to simply pull themselves and the mass of fuel out of our gravity well). As we learn to shift around space faster, the range of "planets" we can make home on expands.
    Let's not rush to the moon and Mars with a half-baked plan that simply strands humans on other planets (however much I want to go) and lets focus on setting up inter-planetary travel once and for all. This rocket stuff is madness.
  • Before you hit that reply button to flame me, sit back and think what you would really do if you could leave on a space shuttle for Mars tomorrow. Would you really want to abandon the Earth, home of humanity for many millenia, and all of its scenic mountains, awe-inspiring oceans, and beautiful forests to go live on a God-forsaken hump of red rock?

    ummm HELL YEAH! I believe other responders have said it more eloquently than I, but yes, I would go in a second. I resent the fact that you think everyone is a cookie cutter duplicate of you and that everyone thinks like you, we dont. Some of us deram of doing something more than living in the suburbs, working for middle management, and having 2.3 children. If thats what you want to do, be my guest, but some people, myself included, would rather live "on a god-forsaken hunk of red rock" than in the suburbs.

  • Not with a bang, nor with a whimper, but by silent assimilation by a horde of genetic couch potatoes like yourself.

    Interestingly enough, most civilizations end through their own fault, they stop advancing technologically and some other civilization that hasnt been so lackadasical comes along and takes them over, then that civilization becomes complacent and falls, and so on. All I have to say is, when the alien civilization comes to conquer earth because weve been slacking off, dont blame me, i plan on voting for kodos.

  • I don't think they are. The length of time for a trip to Mars is quite fixed by the positions of the planets orbits relative to each other. With a little bit more fuel (or slightly better propulsion) you can take some time off the transfer journey, but if you throw lots more fuel at the problem you start to get quite seriously diminishing returns. 180 days or so is going to be the optimum transfer time for the forseable future - better propulsion systems are still a good thing, but because they allow you to take more stuff with you not because they shorten the trip. As for your two habitats idea, a variant of it already exists in the more recent mission plans. These tend to use a different vehicle for going to Mars and coming back. The return vehicle is sent out ahead of time, and verified to have landed, and not have any leaks etc. before the astronauts ever leave earth. When they arrive they know they already have this habitat on the planet if their own one is not working, or they can continue to live where they are. If anyone is interested in more I'd reccomend Robert Zubrin's book "The Case for Mars" which addresses quite a few of the points people have brought up here.
  • (semi-OT)

    It's only a matter of time before the Yuppies discover Mars as the Next Great Place to Live(TM). Before you know it there will be strip malls, chain resturaunts with 3hr wait every night of the week (doesen't anyone *make* dinner anymore?), ugly houses 3 feet apart, traffic, traffic, and more traffic.

    Eventually the Yuppies will discover Mars, and they *will* destroy it.
  • Well those aren't things we're testing here, so don't worry about the bad science. The good science that's happening around me is testing microbes that are likely to be able to survive the harsh radiation of Mars -- good candidates for possible forward-contamination of the red planet, or useful for making plants for food that would survive should we decide to do such a thing.

    We're testing space suits, and already several changes have been made in the design because of what we've seen in terms of flexibility and mobility while spending hours moving around in the terrain.

    etcetera (visit the web pages for more details ont he experiments, none of wehich need low atmospheirc pressure or high radiation to succeed)...

    I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
    Q.Tell me what the trail was.
  • Id say its about half mac, half PC up here. the nasa folks from Ames seem to have the preference for Macs, the rest of us leaned towards Wintel boxes. And our DHCP server is Linux...

    I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
    Q.Tell me what the trail was.
  • the gravity isn't a big enough issue to throw off the design entirely. It's close enough to do good testing on earth.

    And we have engines that work in the martian atmosphere (NASA developed them in the 60s/70s) but it's not necessary to use them for tooling around here on Devon.

    That said, from our experiences here, I'd say this design is overkill in about a hundred ways. it looks way too complex to survive three years on Mars, and too top-heavy. it would roll over like a suzuki samurai if you tried to drive anywhere with it...

    I'm an investigator. I followed a trail there.
    Q.Tell me what the trail was.
  • People won't nuke their own planet, it just doesn't take that many bombs to make a planet unlivable.

    People tend to grossly overestimate the effects of nuclear weapons. If World War III broke out today, hundreds of millions, maybe a few billion, people would die. Governments would collapse and most of the world would be in bad shape. That does not mean that the entire planet would be uninhabitable or that humans would become extinct. From a biological point of view, it would be a minor catastrophe. Humanity would survive and rebuild large scale civilization.

  • Here's a comprehensive list of Internet resources about this story:

    The original Arctic Mars homepage [marssociety.org] was providing regular updates about the research station, but they stopped around two weeks ago. They still have a lot of background material about the story.

    From that point on, current news has been posted to the Mars Society Homepage [marssociety.org].

    Marc Boucher, CEO of SpaceRef [spaceref.com] is also the webmaster for the project, so SpaceRef has a tremendous amount of coverage of the project, as well as a live webcam [spaceref.com].

    In my opinion, though, MSNBC has had the absolutely best coverage, providing stories almost daily; unfortunately, they overwrite the older stories so there's no archive:
    July 31 - Mars simulation begins in Arctic [msnbc.com]

    And, of course, my own coverage at Universe Today [universetoday.com]:

    Fraser Cain

  • Personally, I'd be extremely reluctant to leave everything I know behind on Earth and ship myself off to another planet where living conditions would likely be much poorer I'd kill to get to be on the first bus to Mars. Even if I knew ahead of time that I wouldn't be coming back. I'm sure a lot of people agree with you, and would rather relax in their warm hobbit holes, but some people would disagree. A lot of people will compete fiercely for the honor of being the first pioneers on the human race's first colony.
  • What about the atmospheric pressure? Wouldn't that have a raster adverse affect on the fuel/air mixture?

    If you're going to make it completely closed anyway, you might as well use an electric engine, possibly charged by RTGs.

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