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New Study Shows Solar System Is Uncommon
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Sep 02, 2008 05:13 AM
from the isn't-that-special dept.
from the isn't-that-special dept.
Iddo Genuth writes "Research conducted by a team of North American scientists shows our solar system is special, contrary to the accepted theory that it is an average planetary system. Using computer simulations to follow the development of planets, it was shown that very specific conditions are needed for a proto-stellar disk to evolve into a solar system-like planetary system. The simulations show that in most cases either no planets are created, or planets are formed and then migrate towards the disk center and acquire highly elliptical orbits." The research was published in Science magazine; here's the paper on ArXiv (PDF).
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Great! (Score:5, Funny)
Ever since mothers were allowed into academia, all their research has been telling us is that we are SPECIAL.
Cheers!
Re:Great! (Score:5, Insightful)
I wouldn't read it like that
Space is still the big unknown. If this "shows' anything, it seems more probable that this 'shows' that the simulations aren't complete enough yet.
If they would deduce this from actual statistical data, it would show something, but deducing this from simulation seems a a bit to trustful to the current state of science if you ask me
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Re:Great! (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. Basing conclusions off simulation models is risky, mainly considered how in the domain of planetary simulations, well established models get entirely questioned every once in a while.
And at this point even actual statistical data is hard to use to conclude anything about our solar system, because of our limited observation capabilities, what we know has a heavy statistical bias.
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Climate Science (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Climate Science (Score:5, Informative)
It's an interesting parallel with anything where you base a conclusion off a simulation. But with climate science there are very significant differences.
With our own planet we have reasonable records of how conditions changed in the past and the results of that. We've got extremely detailed recording of the current situation and the recent past. We've got firmly established science showing why those changes would cause those results. The world's climate is a little chaotic and the simulations match that state of affairs.
When modelling planetary discs, we're nowhere near as sure of the physics. We can only get decent observations of our own solar system, and there isn't a disc of dust to observe. Even the best telescopes can barely see the discs of dust around stars. We could barely detect our own solar system around another star, let alone watch it form.
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Re:Climate Science (Score:5, Insightful)
And you'll need to stop confusing climatologists with meteorologists.
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Re:Climate Science (Score:5, Funny)
climatologists will need to be right more than 50% of the time if they want me to believe them. Heck just this past weekend the only thing they predicted correctly was the daily highs and lows.
And you'll need to stop confusing climatologists with meteorologists.
What does a meteor have to do with this weekends weather?
Leave science to the scientologists I say..
(They're the authentically named 'ologists for the job).
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Re:Climate Science (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Climate Science (Score:5, Informative)
Growth rate of coral is one data point. You can also look at ice cores, tree rings, stalactites, isotope analysis of rocks. And sediments can refer to all kinds of interesting information, both organic and inorganic in nature.
You might be able to cast doubt on coral growth rings, but when everything is pointing in the same direction, you've got to pay attention to the most obvious reason for that.
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Re:Climate Science (Score:5, Informative)
How does anyone know what else might have affected the growth rate of coral at the time?
For one, they look at corals of the same species from around the world which grow in regions of different temperature, salinity, etc., and see how those factors are affect the coral's growth.
The other poster has a more complete answer to the broader question.
but you can't tell someone what the temperatures were without a measurement of said temperatures with an accurate temperature measurement device
That's manifestly false. Oxygen isotope proxies in ice cores are one of the prime examples of good paleothermometers, when they can be used; they depend on the rate at which heavier isotopes are transported in warmer or colder air, which is just physics. You don't need to worry about biological fractionation and such. Other proxies do good or fair jobs, depending on the type and the circumstances. Ocean proxies often do better than land proxies, since conditions are more stable. Almost all proxies are better at measuring temperature changes than absolute temperatures, though.
We have no reasonably accurate measurement of temperature before the existence of reasonably accurate measurement devices.
I'm sure you came to that conclusion from a thorough reading and analysis of the paleoproxy climate literature.
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Re:Climate Science (Score:5, Interesting)
That sort of situation is commonly called "the butterfly effect". As the saying goes, a butterfly flapping its wings over a highway in australia could be the deciding factor as to the path of a hurricane in the gulf three weeks from now.
While that's a little extreme, it's meant to illustrate the point of highly interactive systems that are "extremely sensitive to initial conditions". For example, a single microbe that hitchhiked on Spirit or Opportunity could lead to the terraforming of mars a millennia later.
Weather has always been considered highly sensitive to initial conditions, meaning very subtle differences in the weather conditions today can have a profound effect on the weather a week later. The interesting thing about weather is that it doesn't take a millennia to change things miles away, it can do it in a couple hours.
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What is rare? (Score:5, Insightful)
If even one thousandth of one percent of stars form solar systems similar to this one, that would still be quite significant.
Under which model? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Under which model? (Score:5, Funny)
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if our solar system is uncommon... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:if our solar system is uncommon... (Score:5, Funny)
Lets say... zero.
If you cam't find a girl on Earth, what are your chances against alien supermen? particularly someone who is built like Gort?
In a bar fight, you can only win at ASDF keyboard battles.
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If you think thats rare.. (Score:5, Funny)
Just what are the odds that every alien encounter will be with bipeds that have vocal communication!
Re:If you think thats rare.. (Score:5, Funny)
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Dupe from 3 weeks ago (Score:5, Informative)
Solar Systems Like Ours Are Likely To Be Rare [slashdot.org]
KentuckyFC writes
"Astronomers have discovered some 250 planetary systems beyond our own, many of them with curious properties. In particular, our theories of planet formation are challenged by 'hot Jupiters,' gas giants that orbit close to their parent stars. Current thinking is that gas giants can only form far away from stars because gas and dust simply gets blown away from the inner regions. Now astronomers have used computer simulations of the way planetary systems form to understand what is going on (abstract [arxiv.org]). It looks as if gas giants often form a long way from stars and then migrate inwards. That has implications for us: a migrating gas giant sweeps away all in its path, including rocky planets in the habitable zone. And that means that solar systems like ours are likely to be rare [arxivblog.com]."
Special one (Score:5, Insightful)
Research conducted by a team of North American scientist shows our solar system is special
... therefore, God created this solar system specially for man, which is the center of the Universe.
I love this based-on-new-studies "science".
Just because we can't see (yet) any other kinds of solar systems, doesn't necessarily mean ours is "special" !
How does study compare with observed results (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I've read here: http://exoplanets.org/aasjune07s/pr_280507.htm [exoplanets.org] there have been some 236 exoplanets detected to date. I believe that they have the ability to see if these exoplanets are in highly eliptical orbits or not - so how does this simulation tie with the observed reality?
The description of Gliese 436 for example seems to also be an exception to this simulation model - so if out of 236 finds we are already finding systems similar to sol - then this simulation model must be at fault or?
Incomplete conclusion (Score:5, Interesting)
The article says that for a wide range of parameters protoplanetar disks produce a solar system-like outcome relatively rarely.
The research says nothing about the distribution of parameters in real situations, i.e. is the range of considered parameters realistic?
This is nice research but only preliminary.
"accepted theory" (Score:5, Interesting)
IIRC, ours is considered typical only because no data existed to show it wasn't. That doesn't make the idea into a 'theory'. Discoveries of extrasolar planets and improved models on more powerful supercomputers are bound to evolve this "Unintelligently Defined Theory" into a better creation story.
;)
Re:Have you every programmed a gravity sim? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Have you every programmed a gravity sim? (Score:5, Funny)
Did you now that the Earth does in fact have an elliptical orbit, and that in January it is actually three million miles closer than it is in July?
Did you also know that the primary reason there is solid carbon dioxide on Mars is the density of the atmosphere, and not the distance to the sun?
Did you also know that if your mommy was any uglier, or your daddy wasn't drunk, you wouldn't exist? It's true! The existence of life is contingent on many factors.
And besides, Charley's in the trees, man, he's in the freakin' trees!
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