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Magpies Are Self-Aware
Posted by
kdawson
on Wed Aug 20, 2008 06:08 AM
from the who-you-callin'-birdbrain dept.
from the who-you-callin'-birdbrain dept.
FireStormZ writes "Magpies can recognize themselves in a mirror, confounding the notion that self-awareness is the exclusive preserve of humans and a few higher mammals. It had been thought only four species of apes, bottlenose dolphins, and Asian elephants shared the human ability to recognize their own bodies in a mirror. But German scientists reported on Tuesday that magpies, a species with a brain structure very different from mammals, could also identify themselves. It had been thought that the neocortex brain area found in mammals was crucial to self-recognition. Yet birds, which last shared a common ancestor with mammals 300 million years ago, don't have a neocortex, suggesting that higher cognitive skills can develop in other ways."
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I knew magpies are quite "smart" (Score:5, Interesting)
It has been known that magpies can solve various kinds of mechanical puzzles, much better than most (all?) other birds and even mammals. Now this isn't related to self-avareness, I guess, but it is quite interesting nonetheless.
Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart" (Score:5, Funny)
Several other birds are also known for pretty amazing intellectual feats (symbolic language is a pretty famous one), considering their brain size.
It's probably because of those scary velociraptor genes.
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Crows, for one (Score:5, Informative)
Crows have been observed making tools [sciencemag.org] and using them.
Birds are in general a lot smarter than we've given them credit for. It might be time to rethink the term 'bird brain'.
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Re:Crows, for one (Score:5, Funny)
My chubby cat is not so impressed with the intelligence of the birds in our back yard.
Seriously, anyone who has ever had a parrot or macaw as a pet can tell you they're smarter than most people would think. And more social.
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Re:Crows, for one (Score:5, Interesting)
Don't give them all so much credit.
My "automatic vision systems" teacher gave an interesting lecture about research on hens. Hens are awfully dumb. They have an instinctive reaction to images of weasels (panic/run) and to sound (tweeting) of small chickens ("herd/care"). The researchers made a model of a weasel that was making the chicken noise. Hens exposed to this experienced software failure: they would freeze and stop reacting to all other external signals/impulses until the chirping weasel was removed. :)
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Re:Crows, for one (Score:5, Interesting)
I've always noticed that, despite their propensity for hanging around roadkill on busy highways, I've never seen a dead crow on the road.
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Re:Crows, for one (Score:5, Interesting)
I remember reading somewhere that they have quite advanced learning mechanisms. It is enough that one of them gets hit by a car and the rest who saw the incident know not to get hit by cars.
In a pop-sci magazine I once saw a photo of a robin hovering over a pool, with a story about how it had learned to hunt like a kingfisher. It just sat there watching the kingfisher fish, and when it left, the robin tried the same technique, refining it as it figured out what worked and what didn't. For example, it had to hover over the deeper part of the water to chanse the fish to the shallower part.
I find it very hard to believe, but the magazine is pretty reputable. Must have been the Einstein of robins.
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Re:Crows, for one (Score:5, Interesting)
The reason we believe that animals aren't conscious, and are like little automaton, is because it allows us to treat them with callous disregard. Humans who are ideologically unbound from natural sympathy and empathy and treat other animals with callous disregard achieve dominance over their environment.
We do the same thing to the world itself. We are not OF this place, we are simply IN this place, temporarily, after which our soul will leave. So, we can treat the world itself with callous disregard, without consequence.
We also do this to other humans. They don't have a soul, only we have a soul. Therefore, we do not belittle ourselves when we belittle them, because we are so much more than they are, while they are simply creatures of the muck, like animals.
This ruthless perspective is an overwhelmingly effective tool. Therefore, it is the truth. The rest is just supporting mythology.
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Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart" (Score:5, Interesting)
It's not that much the brain size , as the brain size in proportion to the body. The bigger the body , the more brain mass is required to control the body.
So a small creature with a relatively big head , could be as smart as a human being or more.
A big creature with a small brain , would be completely dumb.
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Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart" (Score:5, Interesting)
Clearly, it'll be a very, very long time before there are computers with enough memory or power to model a mammalian brain. On the other hand, an avian brain seems to have extremely useful capabilities and is far, far more compact. Perhaps something useful can be inferred from the greater volume-to-power ratio of a magpie's grey matter?
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Re:I knew magpies are quite "smart" (Score:5, Funny)
I saw that on TV so it may be wrong.
What?!
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Magpies are evil. (Score:5, Interesting)
In Australia, when its nesting season for Magpies they swoop people who go within their territory. Now I had to walk a fair way to catch a bus which just happened to intersect with a couple of magpies. One particular time I had one swoop, peck and draw some blood on some demon birdesque fly-by. I ran and took shelter at a nearby mall and waited about 5 minutes or so. I saw other people walking around and assumed that the coast was clear and went on my merry way. However, said demon bird was waiting for me and attacked again. Why it didnt attack any of the other potential targets and instead wait for me I'll never know.
Re:Magpies are evil. (Score:5, Interesting)
These stories are common, and my best guess is that they recognise individual people. Or at least, they think they do. I would guess that someone who they thought looked like you was at some stage a threat to them or their nest, maybe throwing rocks or otherwise exhibiting aggressive behaviour. After that, they'll start attacking them on sight to try to keep them away; and since you look similar enough, they treat you the same way. On the other hand, maybe it's even more general than that. Simply a way of walking, or particular shapes, or particularly colour combinations you wear, etc.
A friend of mine with twins has noticed that they will taken an instant liking or dislike to certain people, presumably based purely on how they look or sound. The assumption being that the babies are okay with people who resemble their family members, but get uncomfortable around people that look "strange". Maybe it's something similar to that.
We had magpies around for years because we used to feed them, and they'd nest in our yard sometimes and usually would nest pretty close by. In at least a decade of seeing them every day I've never had a problem with being swooped by them. The closest was one female magpie in particular that got very used to us over the years, and would make a habit of flying uncomfortably close in order to get attention. It was never aggressive though, merely a nuisance - like a dog that keeps hanging around right at your feet so you're always almost stepping on it. (It did that too.)
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Re:Magpies are evil. (Score:5, Funny)
Had a similar experience with crows.
I was walking through the park and obviously got too near a nest of something. I noticed two started to circle way above my head. My first thought was "Cool" because I was heavily into the goth thing at the time. After a few more feet they attacked. No pecking, but flapping wings in front of my face, diving at my head, that sort of stuff. Nobody else walking along that way was targeted.
People watching they would have seen a goth in a leather trenchcoat stumbling, waving his arms, running and yelling. Looking back, that must have been quite funny to watch.
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Re:Magpies are evil. (Score:5, Funny)
I saw other people walking around and assumed that the coast was clear and went on my merry way. However, said demon bird was waiting for me and attacked again. Why it didnt attack any of the other potential targets and instead wait for me I'll never know.
Tippi Hedren, is that you?
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grey parrots as well (Score:5, Interesting)
Excellent news. (Score:5, Funny)
Now we can punish the thieving bastards by putting them in prison instead of just shooting them.
Odd experiment in self awareness (Score:5, Funny)
A few years ago they tried the red dot on the forehead mirror test with Congressmen but got no reaction. As a control they tried taping a $100 bill to their foreheads and all quickly recognized the bill and reached for it. In an even more bizarre twist they seem to be able to find the bill even when blindfolded. They seemed to sniff the air so it was assumed they could smell the bill. Even stranger still when they taped a $1 bill to their foreheads it got no reaction even when they weren't blindfolded. The researchers concluded Congressmen were amazing creatures worthy of more study. As to them being self aware the tests were inconclusive.
Roadside magpies (Score:5, Interesting)
Watching the roadkill feeding magpies cooly walk around just behind the white road lines, you can tell they have worked out a pretty solid theory for how cars move and that they understand how the cars are dangerous hazards but nevertheless predictable and avoidable. Other birds simply take flight in panic and some don't even recognize cars as a hazard - dumb turkeys and pheasants dumbly just obliviously waddle out in traffic.
In Tokyo crows - corvid relatives of magpies - have been observed figuring out how to exploit the traffic signal cycles. The crows drop nuts in the path of the cars, in the middle of the pedestrian crossings, and patiently sit overhead waiting for the light to change so they can go down and have a look and pick up the nuts crushed by the car tires. Maybe these crows developed a theory of cars as practical and dependable "thing crushers" - producing crispy roadkill and other delicious crush jobs.
Fascinating birds.
Re:Roadside magpies (Score:5, Funny)
I was walking in the forest near home once with my little boy when we saw a pheasant meandering along. When it saw us it froze and stood there stock still, presumably hoping we wouldn't notice it.
When my son saw it, naturally (for a three year old) he charged straight towards it with his arms out, laughing. The pheasant looked pretty surprised and eventually bolted for the nearest bush. Hilariously, it just stuck it's head in while it's body and legs remained flat on the floor, completely exposed.
Possibly one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.
I think an animal should know it's in big trouble when it's easy meat for a human toddler.
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Re:Roadside magpies (Score:5, Funny)
When my son saw it, naturally (for a three year old) he charged straight towards it with his arms out, laughing. The pheasant looked pretty surprised and eventually bolted for the nearest bush. Hilariously, it just stuck it's head in while it's body and legs remained flat on the floor, completely exposed. Possibly one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.
Perhaps the rest of the peasants were on the other side of the bush.... waiting....
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Self Aware or Vanity Test? (Score:5, Interesting)
Mirror, mirror, on the wall,
Who in this land is fairest of all?
Birds are more intelligent then people think (Score:5, Interesting)
Birds actually have more brains than people realise - literally.
While they may not have a mammalian brain, they haven't been idle. Once they diverged from the rest of the raptor dinosaurs (or possibly before it, based on some evidence of mating/nesting habits), birds developed another brain 'layer' much like mammals did. This layer was not the same as the mammal one, but it was nonetheless more sophisticated than the reptilian brain stem we all inherit.
Certainly, birds have shown remarkable intelligence in various studies.
More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_intelligence
"In recent years it was realized that certain birds have developed high intelligence entirely convergently from mammals such as humans."
Vampires (Score:5, Funny)
Doesn't this logic mean that vampires are not self-aware?
Re:my dog... (Score:5, Interesting)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test [wikipedia.org]
Please understand what self-recognition in a mirror is. It has been known for a long time that dogs recognize their own scent, but with their black-and-white eyesight they have never shown any signs of recognizing themselves in a mirror, at least not in any social sense.
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