NASA's Mars News Is Not Life, But Perchlorate 289
leighklotz writes "In an update to the little green men story of not-life-on-Mars, NASA has twittered: 'The buzz this weekend was due to an interesting soil chemistry finding, still preliminary, but now avail here:' where 'here' is NASA Spacecraft Analyzing Martian Soil Data. The exciting bit: 'Within the last month, two samples have been analyzed by the Wet Chemistry Lab of the spacecraft's Microscopy, Electrochemistry, and Conductivity Analyzer, or MECA, suggesting one of the soil constituents may be perchlorate, a highly oxidizing substance.' Also, 'NASA will hold a media teleconference on Tuesday, Aug. 5, at 2 p.m. EDT, to discuss these recent science activities.'"
Contamination? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
These are intermediate results, and should be treated as such. From TFA,
The team also is working to totally exonerate any possibility of the perchlorate readings being influenced by terrestrial sources which may have migrated from the spacecraft, either into samples or into the instrumentation.
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
These are intermediate results, and should be treated as such. From TFA,
The team also is working to totally exonerate any possibility of the perchlorate readings being influenced by terrestrial sources which may have migrated from the spacecraft, either into samples or into the instrumentation.
Wouldn't it be amusing if some joker, before launch, had sprinkled a handful of dirt into the analysis chambers? (And by "amusing", I mean in the "How close do you think I can steer this ocean liner to that iceberg?" sort of way.)
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
Eh, maybe. First, Mars missions aren't launched from the SS cargo bay, but often (and virtually always for interplanetary missions) the Delta 2's have solids attached for boosting as well as a solid third stage. But it's rare for launch material to get into a payload. If something did get in, it's likely to be a particle or two, not a whole spray, so it is possible only one sensor was contaminated.
But we'll hear soon enough. Either that, or that perchlorate was left by some gooey, amoeba-looking alien of the week that feeds on salt...
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
But it could be a good source for manufacturing Oxygen. Something we sorta need to survive on long space trips ;)
One would also assume you could potentially use the Oxygen stripped off for other things besides breathing.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
Quit giving the martians ideas.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Oh yeah. Didn't think that all the samples would have perchlorate. Guess that's why I don't work for NASA.
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
This means that neither the propellant or the resultant chemicals are perchlorates, so this substance can be ruled out as a contaminant due to propellants. So contamination theory is out. See also the following excerpt from the same site you sourced:
Will Phoenix's descent thrusters alter the composition of its landing site?
Altering the chemistry of our landing site due to our thruster exhaust is unavoidable. The Phoenix Lander uses hydrazine, a hypergolic propellant that turns into ammonia during combustion. So essentially, we are spraying the surface with ammonia and a small amount of hydrazine that was not combusted. The way we get around that is by 1) knowing that we are going to be producing ammonia and 2) by designing the wet chemistry cells to carefully quantify the amount of ammonia in the regolith. We then use this information to interpret our other results.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Moreover, a hot jet of ammonia/hydrazine is a reducing atmosphere that specifically would destroy perchlorates.
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Hard to say, K'Breel has been quiet for some time. Too quiet.
Blame Microsoft (Score:3, Funny)
Perchlorates are a normal part of decomposing electronic devices.
Re: (Score:2)
"The team also is working to totally exonerate any possibility of the perchlorate readings being influenced by terrestrial sources which may have migrated from the spacecraft, either into samples or into the instrumentation. "
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
Scientific American reported that "The fuel in the thrusters that Phoenix used to land on Mars was made of hydrazine, not perchlorate."
http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=perchlorate-found-on-mars-makes-soi-2008-08-04 [sciam.com]
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
So... little green men... (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
Nah, just little green chemicals!
(For those that don't get it, chlorine is green.)
News Conference on Tuesday LunchTime (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html [nasa.gov]
Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, me neither.
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipedia is your friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate [wikipedia.org]
Perchlorates are the salts derived from perchloric acid (HClO4). They occur both naturally and through manufacturing. They have been used as a medicine for more than 50 years to treat thyroid gland disorders. They are also used as an oxidizer in rocket fuel and explosives and can be found in airbags, fireworks, and Chilean fertilizers.
Now, do you know what that means?? We could have tons of Chilean fertilizers YEAH!!!!
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Funny)
Chilean fertilizer is a euphemism for bird shit.
Holy Cow, there are birds on Mars...
Slashdot.... deductive reasoning at it's best.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Funny)
If NASA hypes this up a bit, we'll be SO there next year!
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Informative)
Don't miss the point!
Perchlorates mean OXYGEN! They can breath the stuff AND make rocket fuel! The chemistry is relatively simple too! - 4 oxygen atoms for every potassium (I read somewhere NASA found concentrations of potassium).
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
It means we can all our dry cleaning real cheap on Mars!
Oh, wait... I don't dry clean my t-shirts.
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
What it means - perchlorate can be used to make bombs. Therefore Mars has terrorists. There is life on Mars, albeit the bad kind.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
What it means - perchlorate can be used to make bombs. Therefore Mars has terrorists. There is life on Mars, albeit the bad kind.
Ah, so that's how NASA is going to get Bush to fund a mission to Mars: to kill the Martian terrorists!
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, me neither.
I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with the earlier Viking Labelled Release [space.com] (LR) experiments, as mentioned in this post [slashdot.org].
According to that link, the LR experiment gave a positive result for life. But since a complementary experiment gave a negative result, an alternative explanation posited for the LR data was that there was an oxidising agent in the soil that created a false positive. Since perchlorate is an oxidant, perhaps these latest data represent a conclusive explanation of the Viking LR results as a false positive?
In other words, the data would point to the non-existence of life on Mars. (But that's just a wild guess, I should add.)
Ramifications? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ramifications? (Score:4, Funny)
Perchlorate can be used for explosives ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate ) and suggests the presence of unlawful combatants on Martian soil.
Re:Ramifications? (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It means that the free oxygen in the atmosphere had combined with available hydrogen and metals.
Simple put, Potassium/Sodium/Calcium had reacted with water or some hydrogen based acid - perhaps as gas forming a hydride and any free oxygen reacted with that compound to make a perchlorate!
Stunning stuff if you think about it.
If true, it's a real bonus for survival.
Re: (Score:2)
It is a primary ingredient used in rocket fuel, as in the stuff that would be needed to send things back to earth if we ever went there.
Beyond that, no clue what they are getting at.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Looks like i mixed things up. Perchlorate isn't that aggressive after all:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate [wikipedia.org]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
The presence of a highly oxidizing substance would imply that organic matter is attacked and degraded quickly. If a high level of perchlorates is present on the surface of mars this could mean that it is a barren place devoid of organic life as we know it.
(This is chlorex after all, remember you use it to kill germs?)
Oxygen was also highly toxic to the first life on earth. Life found a way to cope with it.
So if there's life on Mars, it's breathing perchlorate.
Re:Ramifications? (Score:5, Funny)
I am the Lorax I speak for the trees...and algae, and bacteria, and...
...you oxymetabolistic-centric bastard.
GW Bush (Score:4, Funny)
So who had the job of explaining this to Pres. Bush, and how long did it take before he understood?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Bush isn't stupid, he's just intellectually impaired.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Bush ain't dumbified, he's just inteligentally impairificated.
Fixed it for you.
So what exactly are they saying? (Score:4, Interesting)
Because it sure sounds like "whole heck 'o alot of rocket fuel just lying on top of frozen water on a planet with 38% of the gravity of Earth"
Sounds like it would make space travel / trips to / from Mars dramatically easier.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Perhaps - perhaps not - 3 components in rocket fuel - oxidizer (perchlorate), fuel and a catalyst. All 3 have to be in close proximity and in the right state to work.
"Fuel" is typically fairly benign stuff - finely ground aluminum, etc - the oxidizer is the stuff that is a bit of a pain to transport.
Even if there was a total lack of fuel (unlikely) on Mars, mining the oxidizer and lifting it into orbit would dramatically lower the amount of power required in the creation of a big rocket - Mars gravity is j
Why this is important to non-chemists (Score:5, Informative)
OK, so at first I read "highly oxodizing" and was thought, "neat; now they know why Mars is rust colored." However, even after RTFA, I was still clueless as to why I should care. Luckily, Wikipedia comes to the rescue.
From the wiki [wikipedia.org]:
Both potassium perchlorate (KClO4) and ammonium perchlorate (NH4ClO4) are used extensively within the pyrotechnics industry, whereas ammonium perchlorate is a component of solid rocket fuel. Lithium perchlorate, which decomposes exothermically to give oxygen, is used in oxygen "candles" on spacecraft, submarines and in other esoteric situations where a reliable backup or supplementary oxygen supply is needed. Most perchlorate salts are soluble in water.
So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen, if and when we can ever get people to Mars. If this is indeed the case, then YES, this is exciting news, a whole lot more important than why Mars is red, and is on the level of the sort of thing that the President might want to know about.
Re: (Score:2)
Nutty. Certainly exciting, however.
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Why this is important to non-chemists (Score:5, Funny)
So, you're saying that after we send all of the people with The Right Stuff to Mars, that they'll end up just as fat as the average America, but will at least have an excuse?
I know... but I've got karma to burn.
Re: (Score:2)
Don't worry, we send the americans first.
American + raised metabolism = happy american.
Or well, I see now that bsDaemon was after the same thing, but seen from the other affect of thyroid problems.
Re: (Score:2)
"..the sort of thing that the President might want to know about."
or not. The same phoenix twitter page [twitter.com] says that the reports claiming there was a White House briefing are untrue.
Re: (Score:2)
So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen, if and when we can ever get people to Mars. If this is indeed the case, then YES, this is exciting news, a whole lot more important than why Mars is red, and is on the level of the sort of thing that the President might want to know about.
However, this particular president is not interested in that. As an oxidizer is an essential component of a bomb, NASA briefed him so that he could declare Mars a "red level" terrorist threat due to the significant amounts of WMDs that could be manufactured there. Plans to liberate Mars are already in the works.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Get your ass to Mars!
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So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen
In addition to the oxygen + rocket fuel oxidizer - all that perchlorate is in close proximity to frozen water and the gravity of Mars is 38% of Earth's. Not a bad combination if you wanted to launch some rockets elsewhere.
Re: (Score:2)
And we'd also got plenty of chloride while doing it!
Someone watch out if the germans try to set up their "oxygen manufacturing camps."
(No, you don't need to correct me on gases.)
Making oxygen is one thing.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen, if and when we can ever get people to Mars.
Sweet! I am suddenly reminded of Total Recall....
Re:Why this is important to non-chemists (Score:5, Informative)
First water, now rocks that you can burn to get oxygen. All we need now is a monkey and some sausage vines. "Robinson Crusoe on Mars" is beginning to look more and more plausible.
NASA using twitter? (Score:2, Interesting)
I think the buried lead here is that the government is now microblogging. Wonder who they're following?
GNU, too, in the loo (Score:2)
I think the buried lead here is that the government is now microblogging. Wonder who they're following?
Yeah, and how many sockpuppets [slashdot.org]?
Honest mistake (Score:2, Funny)
After a Martian belched on the lander's instruments during Mar's version of the 4th of July weekend it's understandable that they would get a false positive for life. After the Martian sobered up he cleaned the lens and promised never to do it again so there's still hope of detecting the faint signs of life coming from the Martian soil. In a related story the yellow ice crystals were the result of the same over indulgent Martian who has also promised to stop pissing on the lander's leg. Hopefully now that t
What's the name of that movie? (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:2)
Perchlorate (Score:5, Funny)
Oxygen Generation (Score:5, Informative)
Perchlorate does three things:
-Treats thyroid gland disorders
-Used as rocket fuel
-Used in generating oxygen (O2) chemically
Seems like good happenstance to land on a planet with frozen water on tracts of rocket fuel and solid oxygen-generating salts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator
This is just great.....JUST great (Score:3, Funny)
...the EPA will now make Mars a Superfund site...Mars missions are going to have to wait until it's cleaned up.
Kevin
great (Score:2)
so we're polluting our home planet and we need to colonize a new one, and the first candidate turns out to be a contaminated rocket fuel brownfield
the conference on august 5th will nothing more than an announcemnet that NASA is being put under administrative jurisdiction of the EPA
Listen To James Lovelock (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Listen To James Lovelock (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no life on Mars because life would effect the atmosphere in ways discernible to us.
So where'd all the methane come from ?
So will the BATFE be harassing the martians now? (Score:2)
Like they have been doing to rocket hobbyists who use perchlorates down here on earth?
http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/25/159239 [slashdot.org]
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/02/20/1318259&tid=159 [slashdot.org]
http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/03/11/1817203&tid=167 [slashdot.org]
Mars + highly oxidizing substance + Governator (Score:5, Funny)
That COULD be good news... (Score:2)
If it turned out to be, say, Sodium Chlorate, then a little heat can release oxygen leaving behind... table salt! Too cool. Is that too much to hope for?
Great - a planet made of perchlorate (Score:5, Funny)
RS
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Well, with either perchlorates or oxygen, you have an oxidizing agent. The part you're still missing though is the thing to be oxidized.
It's not like the only thing keeping fires in check here on earth is lack of oxygen. There's definitely enough oxygen in the atmosphere to burn things like forests. The real source of energy for a reaction like a forest fire is the chemicals that were at some point created by organisms through the absorption of sunlight.
On presumably lifeless Mars, there is no process by
I never... (Score:5, Funny)
NASA has twittered
God help us.
Re:I never... (Score:4, Interesting)
Or maybe Twitter is more useful than the average Slashdotter wants to believe. I was baffled last time when I read the Slashdot reactions on Identi.ca and microblogging. Apparently people here have never heard of microblogging as a way to keep in touch with one's friends.
Or maybe not? (Score:5, Interesting)
Or maybe not, based on data from the Viking missions:
http://www.space.com/news/spacehistory/viking_life_010728-1.html [space.com]
"Photos taken on Mars' surface of a Viking magnetic experiment on both landers show material clinging to the magnets. That suggests to Levin that whatever the surface processes are on Mars, they are not innately highly oxidizing. A highly oxidizing soil would convert magnetized materials to oxidized forms. Therefore, the magnet would be free of such particles.
"Similarly, the Mars Pathfinder mission in 1997, Levin added, also had significant amounts of magnetic material adhering to magnets attached to the spacecraft.
"Levin said that the paradigm of a Mars sterilized by a highly oxidizing surface is "too embedded in our scientific fabric to be set aside even by demonstrated proofs. He points to a John F. Kennedy quote that says 'the great enemy of truth is often not the lie --deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.'"
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Do you really think hundreds of scientists, all out to prove each other wrong would overlook highly publicized results? Or maybe the one guy saying something different is wrong.
Another name for iron oxide?
Magnetite [wikipedia.org].
If that's not good enough, hematite, another form of iron oxide is magnetic at lower Martian surface temperatures. Any kid who has gone out to the desert with a magnet knows that you can pick up all sorts of stuff with it. Maybe people should try a little experimental verification before they
How Surprising!! (Score:2)
I wish they would just admit it already!! (Score:4, Funny)
This would clear up a few things (Score:5, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Dr. Levin's Labeled Release experiment showed a strong positive response for life. Here is the crazy part and the part your mistaken about - all similar experiments on the Viking missions did as well.
Great scientists like Carl Sagan felt we had "evidence up to our eyebrows" but we also had uncertainty. Oxidizers were a possibility but none known (including percolates) explained the results.
Now we have one experiment giving us two results. Percolates in one sample none in another.
Ya know what? I think we hav
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Dr. Levin's Labeled Release experiment showed a strong positive response for life. Here is the crazy part and the part your mistaken about - all similar experiments on the Viking missions did as well.
There were no similar experiments to the labeled release experiment.
Now we have one experiment giving us two results. Percolates in one sample none in another.
A simple explanation is that perchlorates aren't uniformly distributed. At a glance, it appears the first sample, the one that didn't find perchlorates, was taken from dust above the layer of ice, and the second was taken from the ice layer. That actually makes sense since water, even in ice form is a good source of oxygen and an easy way to transport ions (like chlorine and perchlorate) around, you just need to knock the hydrogen off (say
Re:This would clear up a few things (Score:4, Insightful)
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "Hm...that's funny..." ~Isaac Asimov
Extremophiles? (Score:3, Interesting)
Do we have any extremophiles that life in a highly oxidizing environment?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Do we have any extremophiles that life in a highly oxidizing environment?
Yes. Most of it likes its oxygen as a gas, though, and not as part of a solid compound. Compared to what Earth was like when life began, it is a highly oxidizing environment now. Life hasn't just adapted to cope with it, it has literally become addicted to the stuff.
Perchorate is not a substance! (Score:5, Informative)
It is an ion. Was it perhaps Calcium perchlorate, hydrogen perchlorate or something else. Maybe it was Uranium perchlorate?
Saying it was perchlorate is as meaningless as saying that the sea is full of hydroxide, In fact H20 is hydrogen hydroxide - or water. We need a more meaningful statement...
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
the sea is full of hydroxide
We must make every effort to cleanse our seas of this life-threatening chemical!
And while we're at it, we should filter out all the DHMO as well.
same as Viking results? (Score:4, Interesting)
I recall it was Carl Sagan who suggested biological life was locally anti-entropic and one should look for chemical disequilibriums like free oxygen or methane. Over time these substances naturally move into lower energy states through chemical reactions if life wasn't present. However, planetary surfaces and interiors may not be closed energy systems. Mars soil is bombarded by solar UV; Io is heated by Jupiter tidal stress. These energy injections can create life-like chemical disequilibriums too.
Re:Is this considered fuel for a return trip? (Score:5, Informative)
So as I understand it, perchlorate can be used to make rocket fuel.
Sort of -
Perchlorates are oxidizers, which technically are not the "fuel" in the reaction. Oxidzers are, however, the stuff that is somewhat dangerous to handle / transport - the fuel is normally a rather ordinary substance (i.e. in black powder the fuel is charcoal, in modern rockets, powdered aluminum)
A catalyst is required, but the less you have to ship to mars, the easier it is...
Re: (Score:2)
Obama and Mccain on Space Exploration [discovermagazine.com].
Re:Retro-Rockets?..... (Score:4, Informative)
No Mars probes used perchlorates. And even if some did...do you realise the difference in scale between miniscule amounts such probe would care and the whole f***ing planet?
Re:Retro-Rockets?..... (Score:4, Informative)
This sounds SO, SO, SO improbable.
At least to me. Ya think they land in previously landed places?
I mean its a whole planet. It would seem to me that if you calculate a, say 1000 kilometer radius from your landing site that is "clean" (noone landed inside the circle) by our records, this posibility you point out is highly improbable to happen.
Even more so if you pick the lannding at random.
In any case, i would be astonished to find out that they knowingly went in and landed in a contaminated site: everything we touch there we contaminate.