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Amazonian Tribe Has No Word To Express Numbers
Posted by
kdawson
on Monday July 14, @08:08AM
from the how-many-fingers dept.
from the how-many-fingers dept.
In 2004 we discussed the Piraha, a tribe in the Amazon, when a study appeared characterizing their language as a "one, two, many" language. Now reader mu22le informs us of a new study of the Piraha pointing to the possibility that they use no number words at all. Instead they seem to use the word formerly thought to mean "two" to represent a quantity of 5 or 6, and the "one" word for anything from 1 to 4. The language has about 300 native speakers. "The study... offers evidence that number words are a concept invented by human cultures as they are needed, and not an inherent part of language, Gibson said."
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One, Two, Many - Language Shapes Thought 919 comments
Chuck1318 writes "The Piraha tribe in the Amazon has only three words used in counting, that mean one, two, and many. A psychologist testing them has found that they are unable to accurately perform tasks involving quantities as few as four or five. He says that this shows that, at least for numbers, language shapes and limits how people can think." I can't help but be reminded of the gully dwarves from Dragonlance when reading this.
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English Language (Score:5, Funny)
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Please forgive me for this one! (Score:5, Funny)
???
???
??? Profit!
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Hm... (Score:5, Funny)
Shouldn't it be "a large number, but not five or six" speakers?
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Few, many, Lots (Score:5, Insightful)
Seems that what they're calling "Numbers" are the same as our quantity descriptors. Small number, medium number, and large number. Seems reasonable, I'm no anthropologist, but I think that numbers really start when you have a lot of trade going on, when you have to KNOW that 5 ears of corn is worth 1 basket of peas.
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Re:Few, many, Lots (Score:5, Funny)
Sir I don't know where you do your trading, but I can get you 2 baskets of peas for 5 ears of corn.
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numbers probably came from (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:numbers probably came from (Score:5, Interesting)
IAAHTNL (I am a highly trained ninja linguist) and I'd just like to say that Piraha is quite alien in general. From the point of view of the Piraha, all other human languages, whether spoken by city-dwellers or nomads, are pretty much the same.
That is, they MIGHT say that, if Piraha culture had any use for abstract concepts and stuff they couldn't see.
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fantastic (Score:5, Funny)
then there's also no way to collect taxes. I should move...
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Re:fantastic (Score:5, Funny)
You probably have to pay a little for every lot you made. With "little" and "lot" being defined by the guy who comes to get it, assisted by two large guys with mean looking clubs.
You see, the world isn't so different after all.
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Re:fantastic (Score:5, Funny)
don't bring a club to a gunfight ;)
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Re:fantastic (Score:5, Funny)
Two guys is reasonable to take on (perhaps), if I have the larger club. 10-12, on the other hand, is quite the tax collection envoy.
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Words are made up as they are needed (Score:5, Insightful)
When numbers play no role because what you need is either abundant or nonexistant, i.e. "there" or "not there", you have no need to invent a word for it. What matters is whether there is enough or not enough. And appearantly the "a little" "a little more" "much more" separation works sufficiently.
The best example is the omnipresent claim that Inuit have dozens of words for snow. Or Ferengi having a few for rain, but none for "crunchy". What matters is the context you're living in. I dare say that the need for numbers stems either from the needs of trade, administration or simply the urge to show off. And even for that, the basic system of "one, few, many" works out quite ok until the system and your "tribe" reaches a certain size.
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Re:Words are made up as they are needed (Score:5, Informative)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_language#Words_for_snow [wikipedia.org]
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Re:Words are made up as they are needed (Score:5, Interesting)
But it seems like they have that to some extent. If they have a "range" that indicates small/medium/large, then they're still counting. They just don't have a word for the specific total.
If they know that "this many" units of food was enough to feed them last time, then "this many" units of food will likely serve that purpose next time.
If the size of the group grows, then they need "this many" plus "some more". And that "some more" will then be wrapped into "this many" the following year.
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Without numbers... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Without numbers... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Without numbers... (Score:5, Funny)
Here's their assigned IPv4 network range:
many.many.many.many/small
They are nowhere using it up, so thankfully they have no plans to migrate to IPv6. (Which is a good thing because if I tried this joke with an IPv6 address, it would probably trigger the lameness filter.)
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Oblig. (Score:5, Funny)
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Lessons from a Farmboy (Score:5, Interesting)
So, I grew up on a Bushveld Farm in Africa.
And, as one does on farms in the raw, one must maintain a system of control... over baboons.
Experience taught the farmers how to deal with baboons, as a necessity towards having a harvest- baboons are quite destructive you see.
The first method is by catching one using the 'pumpkin' trick. Quite easy:
Tie down a pumkin, make a hole in it just big enough for a baboon hand to slip in and wait.
The baboon will come along and stick his hand into the pumpkin, grab a handful and then try to remove his hand... but as an empty hand can go in, the clenched fist cannot get out... baboon does not want to let go... and is therefore stuck. Then you paint the fellow white, and let it go. The returning baboon will scare the living daylights out of his tribe and they will disappear for a while.
The other method... well... shoot a couple and the farm will be avoided for a LONG time.
It is not as easy as one would think to hunt baboons, firstly, as they have very effective watch..err.. watchmen (Bobejaan-brandwag) who will sound the alarm as soon as they spot people with guns. The trick is as follows (works for Maize fields):
If one man walks into the field, and hides, the baboons stay away.
If two goes in, and one comes out, they stay away.
If three goes in and two comes out... they stay away...
But if four goes in and three comes out... they seem to think that many went in and many left... all right to plunder. (ok, know it should be 'feed', but we live in a relative universe!)
We used to tease and say "1-2-many" is how baboons count. So, imagine my puzzlement when I saw that there are... well... humans living by a similar system!
Here we are wielding the Power of the Universe (maths) as if it is nothing... and others are still learning how to count!
Probably our ability and need to express numbers came from... capitalism :-)
Dammit... finding 'good' in capitalism is painful! :-(
Completely clashes with my view utopian socialism
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Another possibility... (Score:5, Interesting)
It is a general property of people that the most objects they can generally count in a single glance is around 5. The most things a typical person can easily remember in the short term is seven.
Maybe the "one" word means "I can easily commit the scene to memory at a glance", meaning that the scene has a few easily remembered objects in it.
The "two" word might mean "yes I can remember that scene, but I have to concentrate to do it". Typically that would mean the scene has 5-6 items.
The "many" word might mean "no I cannot easily remember the number and arrangement of objects in that scene"
In other words the word used depends on the mental effort required.
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It's the "objects", stupid (Score:5, Insightful)
The previous study had the same basic flaw: they asked the Piraha to count objects that they never normally had to deal with (it was batteries, I think).
What westerners often forget is that many cultures have different numbering systems for different types of things.
If they asked instead, "how many children do you have", or "how many people are there in that hut", they would most likely discover (shock! horror!) that the Piraha count people exactly as you or I. (If we know the individuals we can count up to 10 or so, if we don't, we count up to five or six, then switch to "many").
These experiments look designed to prove something bogus, namely that counting is not an innate skill.
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Link b0rked in summary (Score:5, Funny)
Should be "one, two, many" [slashdot.org]
KDawson, you got a link to your own website wrong, on your own website. You n00b.
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Imperial system (Score:5, Funny)
I heard they have discovered that some ancient tribes in the world are still using imperial measurement. Hard to believe!
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This is nothing new (Score:5, Funny)
Instead they seem to use the word formerly thought to mean "two" to represent a quantity of 5 or 6, and the "one" word for anything from 1 to 4.
Bartenders and police officers in the US dealing with drunks are very familiar with this method of counting.
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Re:Meaning (Score:5, Funny)
Too many?
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