Blue Lights To Reset Internal Clocks

holy_calamity writes "Researchers at RPI are testing the effects of putting blue LEDs inside cars to keep drivers alert. People driving through the night are much more likely to cause accidents because our circadian rhythms just want to sleep — blue light at around 450nm wavelength can fool them into thinking it's morning and keep them awake."

Does this mean that ...

.. there really is justification for people pimpin' their rides????

For morning people, maybe..

"blue light at around 450nm wavelength can fool them into thinking its morning and keep us awake."

I'm rarely awake before 2pm, you insensitive clod!

Is this really the answer?

Yes, I know there are times that we've all had to drive with less sleep than we should have... but is this a good answer?
To me it would seem to inspire false confidence on the part of the driver, where they might think that they could stay up and not have to worry about falling asleep driving since they had their blue lights blinking or whatever.

I'm thinking that the real solution is making people in the public more aware of the dangers of driving with too little sleep. Everyone knows they shouldn't drink and drive (yet many still do) but not enough people realize how dangerous driving when tired is.

Most of all, i hope they don't put these in 18-wheelers are another way to squeeze yet more driving time out of the guys.

Re:Is this really the answer?

Most of all, i hope they don't put these in 18-wheelers are another way to squeeze yet more driving time out of the guys.

First off, your comment deems that you have never driven a 18-wheeler, Most company's back in the day taught you how to cheat on your log books so you can drive more than 500 miles a day. The first day I was hired, they taught me all of this. They push your ass to drive, and if you don't produce they fire your ass. Some good companies are not this way, granted... but to generalize this isn't a good thing. Ever drive 10 hours, then have to unload a 48' trailer by hand and then pick up a load and get sleep? It's a PITA, and that's why I don't do it anymore. And no, I've never crashed my truck.

Re:Is this really the answer?

So? Some activities make driving safer, some make it more dangerous. Nobody is disputing that driving is dangerous. Driving while intoxicated is more dangerous than driving while sober. Driving while talking on a cell is more dangerous than driving while paying attention. Driving while tired is more dangerous than driving while alert. Everyone understands the danger vs. utility aspect of driving. But there is no reason to exacerbate the danger.

As for blue lights in the car, I think it's potentially a bad idea. Blue light makes it hard to see in the dark. Red light doesn't affect night vision so much. Besides, I F*#$ing sick of all the blue lights gratuitously stuck all over the place -- like in the front of an otherwise nice quality DVD player. I'm sick of having to tape over blue lights or prop up DVD covers to right this idiocy about bright blue light.

And as for drivers with those ultra-blue blinding lights, I want to build an auto-tracking fully automatic BB gun (everyone knows driving is dangerous -- anyone remember Deathtrack from the bad old DOS days? loved that game).

Re:Is this really the answer?

Besides, I F*#$ing sick of all the blue lights gratuitously stuck all over the place -- like in the front of an otherwise nice quality DVD player. I'm sick of having to tape over blue lights or prop up DVD covers to right this idiocy about bright blue light.

I think a lot of the problem here is that most blue LEDs used are ultrabright models that can comfortably if dimly illuminate a whole mid-sized room, and are far overkill for simply indicating power or status. Designers just whack 'em in because they're the first ones they come across in the catalogue.

Reminds me of that story a while back where they found out that keyboard indicators for caps/num/scroll lock were bright enough to semaphore a message out of a server room and down the hall.

Re:Is this really the answer?

"When driving after 18 hours awake you have the concentration of someone who's hovering around the UK drink-drive limit. If you drive after you've been awake for 24 hours, you have the same concentration level as someone who's downed half a bottle of Scotch" - Jeremy Clarkson

Re:Is this really the answer?

Most traffic accidents are caused by sober drivers.

Most drivers are sober. You should look at the rate of accidents of drunk and sober drivers; I have a suspicion of what you would find.

Re:Is this really the answer?

Please let me know when you get behind the wheel so I can make sure to get off the road. The fool who assures himself that he drives just as well when he's been drinking is the most dangerous fool on the road.

Re:Is this really the answer?

We accept the dangerous because the convenience is worth it.

I remember back when I played Quake II a lot, I would see a lot of things on the road that would cause a neural reflect to tap the "7" key IIRC which selected the rocket launcher. We "accept" the dangers created by the stupidity of those around us because government heavily repress our primal responses. Man, if I ever became the overlord at the DMV, things would be different.

That includes those people who think that driving at 50kph over the speed limit entitles them to private use of the inside lane. Look at me, I'm doing 160 in a 110 zone, everybody F'ing pull into the right lane like this is my private German autobahn or I'm going to hang inches behind your bumper pulsing my halogen highbeams like a prolapsed hemorrhoid. I don't feel myself radiating "acceptance", toward your average MF POS.

If you are decoding my driving behaviour as "acceptance" your powers of perception are extremely dim. The things some people do on the highway done in a wolf pack would see your liver served up as communal pate. Now and then a few aggressive bumper humpers hung from the signage scaffolds would soon set things right. To properly designate the offense, the bumper humpers could be hung with their pants around their ankles. Is Spitzer's wife known to be in the vicinity? No? That must have been another bumper humper. I'm digging, digging, digging and not finding this "acceptance" whereof you speak within myself.

Back to the subject at hand, I actually *have* non-24 hour sleep-wake disorder, and I can tell you that blue light does not function as described in any research I've seen.

Both melatonin and blue light have phase response curves with a fixed phase relationship to your daily body temp. min., that varies somewhat from one person to the next. For most people daily min. occurs somewhere around 05:00. A sleep study which captures this marker involves finding subjects willing (and able) to sleep wired up with rectal thermometers. For improved subject comfort, most sleep studies use DLMO (dim light melatonin offset) as a proxy marker instead. This occurs in the mid evening, and is marked by the first detectable increase of melatonin concentration in saliva (which doesn't occur if the eyes are exposed to bright light).

Blue light exposure in the early morning in the hour *before* your natural rising time will advance your cycle (earlier rising time). Blue light in the evening will delay your cycle (later rising time). To maintain a 24-hour sleep cycle, I require melatonin in the late afternoon and blue light on waking.

As a side note, the neurons in the retina that detect this blue light and signal phase change to the SCN are independent of the optical neurons. Some blind people retain this sensitivity, some don't (e.g. complete retinal loss). The blind people without this retinal sensitivity often suffer from non-24-hour sleep-wake disorder.

Both the existence of this retinal cell population and the phase response curves are fairly recent discoveries. I've only been able to successfully treat my condition for a year now (no help from my doctors, I ended up finding the research myself). Prior to that, was two decades where my body clock delayed an average of 1h15 per day. Internally, I was living on Mars time.

Subjectively, trying to live in day mode while my body wasn't was *exactly* the same as discovering each day that you are now experiencing an extra hour of jet lag as compared to the day before.

Imagine the suckiest jet lag you've ever experienced knowing the next day it will only get one hour worse, and this will continue for weeks. I would eventually reach the point of total circadian insanity, have a waking period 26 to 28 hours long, sleep for 12 to 16 hours, and wake up feeling great again. The funny thing about those long waking periods: I could code 26 hours straight and not suffer any diminishment in my vigilance contrary to most research (I have

Volkswagen gauges are this exact color

Interesting. VW uses this wavelength for its gauge lighting in most of its cars. I always thought it was for looks (as the red/blue combo does look pretty good). Perhaps the blue was chosen to help enhance nighttime alertness as well.

Re:Volkswagen gauges are this exact color

Possibly, though I would still think it a poor choice for lighting instruments. Blue does not focus on the retina very well (requiring more time with eyes off the road to read), and IIRC stimulates rod cells in the eye, reducing night vision.

Jokes??

Q: How many New Yorkers does it take to screw in a "blue" light bulb?

A: None 'o yo' fuckin' business!

Q: How many software people does it take to screw in a "blue" light bulb?

A: None. That's a hardware problem.

Q: How many televangelists does it take to screw in a "blue" light bulb?

A: None. Televangelists screw in motels.

Q: How many straight San Franciscans does it take to screw in a "blue" light bulb?

A: Both of them.

Red+Blue

I find a flashing blue light in the rear view mirror certainly wakes me up.

Seriously though, it would be better to just not drive when tired. Also wouldn't screwing around with your internal body clock mess you up more?

The only problem...

The only problem is that blue light ruins your night vision, which would conceivably cause more accidents.

Blue wavelengths = No night vision as well

Blue wavelengths also have the nasty side effect of destroying night vision almost instantly, fooling the pupils to contract - likely for the very same reason it fools the rest of the body into thinking its daylight too.

Not a desirable or safe side effect when making something specifically intended to be used for driving in the dark. It's why the military uses red lights in their vehicle cabins and cockpits.

Re:A third of accidents

Considering that vastly less people are on the road at night, it's disproportionate.

Re:Please place all * light jokes in this thread.

How many Slashdotters does it take to change a light bulb? [slashdot.org]

Re:Please place all * light jokes in this thread.

Brilliant! Quite an illuminating journal entry you have there. Thanks for shedding some light on it!

Re:Please place all * light jokes in this thread.

Blue lights are more likely to wake you up not because you think it's morning, but because you think the police are chasing you. One time I was driving, and for some reason was paranoid that there was a cop around the corner and I came across a house covered with blue Christmas lights. That woke me up.

Re:Please place all * light jokes in this thread.

Speaking of sleeping and car jokes, this old chestnut comes to mind.

When I die, I want to go peacefully, in my sleep, like my grandfather.

Not screaming in terror like his passengers.

Re:Please place all * light jokes in this thread.

I think this is a bad idea. I mean, when I travel, I sometimes go by bus. Never get any sleep on a bus.

When I travel by plane, I never get any sleep. Kids yelling, flight attendants interrupting me.

But, when I'm driving myself, I can fall asleep no problem. Get some of my best shuteye when I'm behind the wheel.......

Re:Soft red...

Same here, red lights dont keep me awake, neither do blue lights on their own. However I've always found that turning on a flashing red and blue light behind me will instantly make me awake and fully alert,no matter what. The effect is amazing :)

Re:optional only please

Some of us are natural night people.

Yes we are. Some of us don't think clearly until after the sun has been down a few hours. Some of us have been that way since we were six despite the fact that we were raised by dads who kept us on a military time clock--and it didn't make one damn bit of difference, because we could invert the clock in one day by staying up until morning.

I have a theory: morning people have a 22 hour internal clock. I have a 28 hour internal clock. When I was a kid, I used to think it was "insomnia", but its not, because insomnia means that you can't sleep. I can sleep just dandy--about 20 hours after I get up. If I get six full hours, I'm wired like a jack russell terrier for a long long time. So I have to live about 6 days out of the week dead tired (4-5 hours of sleep) so that I have any hope of getting those 4 or 5 hours. One day of 6-7 and I need to be up 20 hours to compensate. My clock gets advanced two or three hours sleeping (god forbid) 8, and I spend the week working it back. Friends, this is not fun. Its also not choice, because if I could trade my 28 hour clock for a 22 hour clock (like my wife has) I would in a heartbeat. I'd use those other 2 hours for sleep. 10 hours of sleep per day--that would rule.

If you study sleep--dig yourself into that theory above. You have some big papers coming your way, I guarantee you.

Only when I got to be an adult did I realize that morning people aren't "faking it". Get this: they are really rather happy its morning! All that "good morning" stuff--its sincere to them. And you have to lie and say "good morning" right back to them or they won't understand you.

Also, when I used to drive 17 hours straight (which I've done more than a few times) I couldn't wait for it to turn night so it wouldn't be so hard to stay up. Dylight is hell when a true night person wants to stay awake. If a blue light simulates that and intrudes on my precious darkness, I don't want any part of it.

Re:Great, but what about chips in the windscreen

Those of us unfortunate enough to buy hardware with blue leds on it can share this fact, it's damned annoying.

Visitors often ask me why my near new A/V equipment is in much worse condition than the older stuff. They think the black insulation tape I've got plastered all over the front is holding it together. It's really just there to block the annoying blue lights from burning holes in my retina while I'm trying to watch TV.