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Asteroid Missions May Replace Lunar Base Plans
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sunday January 20, @08:19AM
from the take-a-triangular-ship-just-in-case dept.
from the take-a-triangular-ship-just-in-case dept.
An anonymous reader alerts us to a story about efforts to modify the United States' space exploration plans to focus on asteroid missions rather than a lunar base. Scientists, astronauts, and former NASA division directors will be meeting next month to develop an alternative to the Bush administration's Vision for Space Exploration. We have previously discussed the possibility of a manned asteroid mission. Quoting:
"Numerous planetary managers told Aviation Week & Space Technology they now fear a manned Moon base and even shorter sorties to the Moon will bog down the space program for decades and inhibit, rather than facilitate, manned Mars operations--the ultimate goal of both the Bush and alternative visions. The first lunar sortie would be flown by about 2020 under the Bush plan. If alternative-vision planners have their way, the mission could instead be flown to an asteroid in about 2025."
Related Stories
[+]
NASA Proposes Manned Asteroid Mission 219 comments
eldavojohn writes "NASA has proposed a manned asteroid mission to a near earth object. They mention this being viewed as a "gap-filler" to keep the public's attention between a lunar exploration & manned mars mission. The article also cites these goals as in line with the Constellation Program. From the article, 'Furthermore, a human venture to a space rock may well accelerate precursor robotic surveys of asteroids, Schweickart observed. "Early unmanned visits to asteroids ... it's the same pattern as we did with the Moon and we're doing right now with Mars. It's all pretty logical," he told SPACE.com.'"
Firehose:NASA replacing moon missions with astroids? by Anonymous Coward
[+]
NASA Vets & Administration Clash Over Moon Plans 158 comments
mattnyc99 writes "There's a serious feud brewing this week over the Bush administration's plan for a manned mission to the Moon as an eventual stepping stone to Mars. The Planetary Society, a top group of former mission managers, space-based scientists and NASA astronauts argues, is set to rebuke the Moon plan at a conference next month in favor of hopskotching an asteroid on the way to the Red Planet. Agency chief Michael Griffin issued an abnormally strong response to the society, calling it an overly political criticism of Bush for a plan that he says was 'the best legislative guidance NASA has ever had.' Either way, it's clear that the stars are aligning for the whole space race to be reconsidered as a new administration steps into the White House. So far Clinton and Obama (who just added his) are the only contenders with space proposals."
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So... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Perfection is difficult. But George W Bush is as close to a perfect fool as I want to see in my lifetime in
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
George W Bush is many things. But he is not a fool.
I agree with you, I don't think he's a fool, or that he's stupid. I've also defended his verbal gaffs, similar to the way you do -- I don't care about speechmaking, I care about results.
So, speaking as a Republican, what the hell *is* wrong with him? Is it arrogance? Hubris? I really can't defend much of what he's done. He's allowed spending like a drunken sailor. The war has been so totally mismanaged I literally can't believe it ("Wait, you mean we weren't keeping people there after we cleared out the town ALL ALONG?? WTF?") The idiotic waffling on what torture is or isn't. That supreme court nomination that even Rush Limbaugh couldn't stomach. The arrogant dismissals of Europe.
Again, I don't think he's a fool -- that's media created. But based on results, you can't conclude that he's anything but stunningly incompetent, and I don't understand where it all went so wrong. He had such grand opportunities at the start of his presidency, and it was all pissed away.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
This has nothing to do with intelligence and everything to with knowing about your limits - and caring about them. He has, despite knowing better, done a large number of things that he shouldn't have; I refuse
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
The Moon will certainly be useful someday - for mining, for energy collection, for tourism, for pure science...but it isn't a useful stop on the way to Mars, nor has it ever been. We've looked at the Moon in recent years for two reasons, both interrelated: first, the big contractors (Lockheed, Boeing, Raytheon, etc.) figure they can bleed us for the Moon and increase their profits before ever beginning the Mars project. Second, the U.S., and humanity in general, suffers from acute myopia and timidity.
We can go to Mars, and we can start NOW. No need for holes on the Moon into which we pour money...and more importantly, time.
Orbit's better for canned monkeys than the moon (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
A great idea (Score:5, Informative)
Asteroids would take much more time to reach, and a mission could not be quickly aborted in an emergency. The communications lag would also be significant; real time conversations would be impossible and communications might even be blocked entirely by solar conjunction for a few days at a time. These are challenges for human space flight, but not insurmountable ones.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A great idea (Score:5, Interesting)
I am unqualified to evaluate what you say and so I will not quibble with any of it. However, can I come outright and say that I honestly do not care about scientific value at this point? I want to see a moonbase. I want proof it can be done on a small planetary scale. I want to see new settlements of humans off this planet, even if only to our nearest satellite. I want to see the whole thing shown to be do'able, not for study's sake, but because it should be being done. I want to see a practical application and a first step to living elsewhere. I think a base on the moon provides that in a way that asteroid exploration just doesn't.
Cheers,
Ian
And then what? (Score:2, Interesting)
I'd much rather see us put people (or robots) somewhere th
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I want humans to leave this rock, I think the only way to do it is to make space profitable. As soon as there is profit to be had, good luck stopping people from doing it. Once we're o
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I'm British.
Cheers,
Ian
Re:A great idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Another post sets it out clearly - this one [slashdot.org]. What is the goal? To my mind, the goal is colonisation. If that is the goal, actions which delay this is in favour of a different goal are to be considered counterproductive.
Now, you may well state that your goal doesn't match mine. That's fine, and fully understood. However, unless someone actually states what they want out of the research and what their end goal is then no progress towards it will be made. The thing to do is to define what "it" actually is, and that's what my post was about.
For me, I want to see efforts towards a moon base as it provides definitive proof that it is possible to live off the Earth. I'm aware of dependencies such as provisions and potentially even energy coming in the form of supplies from the Earth, but until we try it we'll never really know. My hope is that some of the solutions to those problems will be found after we're there - I'm a believer in proximity to the problem helping to focus minds, the "necessity is the mother of invention" situation.
And that's that. It's purely a statement of position by myself - I value progress towards an off-Earth settlement as being of greater value than increased understanding of asteroids. That's all the "I want" stuff was - statement of position. Not a waah waah waah give it to me now-type thing (and where's my flying car?), but a statement of what I believe the end goal should actually be.
Cheers,
Ian
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:A great idea (Score:4, Interesting)
Dear asshole,
Americans are paying for it, so I'd say what we want matters a fair deal. And in this instance, the original poster was saying that he would prefer that we do the initial work of building a permanent presence on the Moon. In fact, so would I. I am more interested in starting that work now, using the money that *I* am providing, then on the scientific exploration of asteroids, given the choice. Sadly for the scientists, they will have to do a lot of convincing in order for me to prioritize their desires for knowledge over my desire for a permanent settlement on a second Solar body. They can always start their own asteroid-exploring scientific foundation, if they have troubles with the priorities I set for them. Or they can ask for both: I would in fact be quite willing to open my wallet if I could directly support their work. But I can't, they are SOL, and should get back to doing what I'm paying them to do.
Re:A great idea (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, that's a rather poor engineering approach. Few if any asteroids are likely to have the tensile strength to be reliable when spun up to the 1/2 g or so that you'd want. Once you were settled down, suddenly the whole thing would bust up and go flying off in all directions. Actually, you probably wouldn't get a chance to settle down; filling it with air would probably produce a catastrophic failure before you even moved in.
The practical approach would be to mine an asteroid for raw materials, and use them to construct the sort of artificial "habitat" that sci-fi writers have been describing for decades. They'd probably be similar in size and shape to a lot of asteroids, but they'd be structurally sound.
Actually, some writers have suggested a sort of compromise: hollow out an asteroid, construct a structurally-sound habitat in the interior, and leave a few meters of rock as shielding from cosmic rays, incoming meteoroids, etc. But this is really just the same. The asteroid would contribute nothing to the structure except shielding. You could do the same by constructing the habitat, and then bolting on a thick layer of the leftover slag from the mining operation. The result would look like an asteroid, but wouldn't be one in any meaningful sense.
But you don't want to just hollow out an asteroid and start it spinning. You want to live in a habitat with a strong, solid structure. And that won't be found in nature; we'll have to build it.
(Others have suggested that it'd be better to mine comets. They tend to have lots of ice and gases, and those are very useful if you want to grow food. The problem is that the inner solar system has lots of asteroids but not very many comets. And the visiting comets tend to be in orbits that are expensive to get to. The closest asteroids with ice are around Jupiter.)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Asteroid misions are important (Score:2)
zap through atmosphere everyday.
There are dozens of large asteroids which pass pretty close http://neo.jpl.nasa.gov/ [nasa.gov]
Mining? (Score:4, Interesting)
For anyone that hasn't heard of him, I'd strongly recommend you check out Bill Stone's [ted.com] TED talk. The whole thing is pretty cool, but its the last chapter in the video thats really amazing.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
A little sad (Score:2)
But it's a little sad, because it really is incredibly cool that we can put a man on the frea
Re:A little sad (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:A little sad (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:A little sad (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Further, I think advanc
Re: Scientific value (Score:2)
Sounds fine to me (Score:2, Interesting)
* Learning how to manage NEOs in case of the ultimate nightmare scenario
* Applying and extending our experience in microgravity
* Potential to access resources far easier than on the moon (metals, water, ox
Both missions has their merits (Score:5, Insightful)
The only problem with an unmanned asteroid mission is that it may require some human decision from time to time - but normally there is no problem with time delays there. Not much that's in a hurry on an asteroid unless it's heading for Earth. Just put the robot to sleep for a while and recharge the batteries. Keep in mind that there may have to be different robots there compared to the robots we have on Mars.
The thing that's more interesting with a permanent moon-base is that there is a possibility that a lot of the material found on the moon can be used as construction material. It will require a processing plant - and it can't be used for everything, but it's there. Much of the soil is composed from oxides - which means that you can extract oxygen. Allocation of area for growth is no big problem either. The catch is that all this may have a high cost. But what is the cost when the Chinese decides that it's their turn to go to the moon?
Infrastructure Development.... (Score:2)
And a moonbase makes as much sense as the "International Space Station".
The REAL driver for developing the infrastructure remains Space Based Solar.
http://w [nss.org]
Good! (Score:4, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
The Moon has some advantages (Score:3, Interesting)
Short term vs. longer termed solution (Score:2, Interesting)
What's the Goal? (Score:5, Insightful)
I want a Moonbase!
How about both? (Score:2)
Sounds Good (Score:2, Funny)
hitch a ride on an asteroid (Score:2)
Case For Mars (Score:4, Informative)
In the book, "The Case for Mars" the author, also the creator of the Mars Direct Plan, argues skipping the moon all-together and go straight to Mars. This is because Mars is full of resources that could be used to make a self sustaining colony, whereas a Lunar base requires everything to come from Earth. Differences between a Lunar Base and the ISS? The Lunar base is on the Moon, and on the Moon you can do geology and astronomy particularly well; on ISS, there's not much useful science.
I'm not sure cruising to asteroids is the answer, but at least there are probably lots of interesting and diverse resources, and the missions could be made lightweight(no lander required). The geology of Asteroids is probably alot different than the Moon's because there was no volcanic past or differentiation. But my opinion is, cut to the chase, go to Mars, its the most interesting thing out there.
DOD will push back (Score:4, Interesting)
They should go to the asteroids, (Score:3, Insightful)
A number of Earth-crossing asteroids are easier to get to, energetically, than the Moon. (Apollo could certainly have
reached some asteroids, which was pointed out at the time, and a lot more Earth-crossing asteroids are known now.) The trip times tend to be long,
so you need to be prepared for long duration flights (which is not that different from being prepared for long duration lunar visits, and is also
true of any trip to Mars). And, you don't need anything like a lunar module. (With most asteroids, and certainly all of the Earth crossing ones, you will "dock" with
them more than "land" on them, the gravity is that week.) The weight saved from the lunar module can be used for provisions instead.
There is plenty of science to do, and if we are ever going to economically exploit the materials in space, we are much more likely to
do it with asteroids than with either the Moon or Mars.
doable; cold war (Score:4, Insightful)
One big advantage of a crewed mission to a near-earth asteroid over a crewed mission to Mars is that we simply don't have the technology to get to Mars. A transfer orbit to Mars takes 1.4 years (total round-trip time). (This is simply the period of a body in a Keplerian orbit that's tangent to the Earth's orbit at perihelion and tangent to Mars's orbit at aphelion. A spaceship isn't like a car, which takes less time to get there if you drive faster. A spaceship only thrusts with its engines in order to change its orbit.) The big unsolved scientific and engineering problem is how to keep a crew of human beings from getting exposed to unacceptable doses of radiation when they're in Earth-Mars orbital space for that long. The radiation intensity from galactic cosmic rays [wikipedia.org] is much, much higher out there than it is in Earth orbit. Feasible amounts of shielding actually make the problem worse rather than better, because of secondary radiation. According to this article [space.com], the duration of a mission to a near-earth asteroid could be 60-90 days, so it avoids this very tough, unsolved problem. There are many other aspects of a near-earth asteroid mission that are also a heck of a lot easier than a Mars mission. You don't have to land in a deep gravity well and then take off again, for one thing. If you look at the history of uncrewed Mars missions, it's pretty damn scary -- the success rate is very low, and that's for missions that don't have to take off and return to Earth, and don't have to provide life support.
The big question in my mind is what is the rational justification for government-funded crewed spaceflight at this point. There's no scientific justification; uncrewed probes give more bang for the buck. The shuttle's only mission is to go to the ISS, and the ISS's only mission is to give the shuttle somewhere to go. Thirty or forty years ago, this was all basically cold war propaganda stuff. It seems to me that the U.S. is having a hard time dealing with an unanticipated outbreak of peace. The rational thing to do would have been to continue harvesting the peace dividend, start ramping down our foreign military commitments, and let both crewed and uncrewed space exploration make the transition to the private sector. Instead we've been blundering around like idiots with our ridiculously large military, and in terms of space exploration we've been choking the scientifically productive uncrewed program by diverting the available money into extremely expensive projects like the ISS that have no rational justification.
The End of Spirit (Score:3, Insightful)
Now that fact that so many posters think this is a good idea, is terribly disheartening. If these posts are for real (and not more b.s. from the propaganda machines that now dominate our media), then it means America has lost it's Spirit. We no longer have a can-do attitude. We no longer care about going beyond ourself and pushing frontiers. We no longer see our ourselves as capable of achieving great things. In short we no longer Dream. And that...more than anything else will be our doom.
Re:The End of Spirit (Score:4, Interesting)
As an Apollo-era teenager I share my age group's frustrations that I don't have my jet car on Mars yet. Heck, we quit following the last few missions. Been there, done that. But all this smacks of back seat desperation. _IF_ by now we had created a huge space station that had learned to be self-sustaining with zero resupply/repair ferries for years, then it _might_ be reasonable to talk about multi-year manned missions around the inner solar system. But as it is, it's more than a little ugly. Sure, you'd get enough volunteers. But watching them die 30 million miles from earth because something and its backup broke is PR that would set your gamble back many years.
Been to the moon so why bother to go back? Why do we have a permanent presence in antarctica -- the favorable corn-growing season?
And, sadly, I also wonder whether this is likely to be some weird propaganda that costs nothing during any particular year of a presidency but keeps the Star Trek voter happy.
The moon? Why we can't supply ISS! (Score:3, Interesting)
There are numerous alternative architectures that can deliver the hundreds of tons of supplies you need on the lunar surface within practical budgets. But they involve direct commercial and industry involvement. Until these players are fully engaged we will not be going back to the moon in a meaningful way. Most importantly these architectures provide the foundations for going to Mars in a meaningful way. Anyone who thinks you are gonna do anything meaningful on Mars with a handful of crew is simply wrong. It requires a bare-bones crew of at least 90 to support three science teams of 6 each. If you want confirmation look at Antarctic operations to get yourself calibrated. Furthermore on any real Mars mission at least part of the crew that goes does not come back on the first return opportunity. They are there for at least two cycles and transfer tasks and responsibilities to the second cycle crew etc etc. It is getting used to not coming back for 5 years that is perhaps one of the most important psychological barriers we must cross. The moon is a good place to start this- staying there permanently creates an enormous improvement in efficiency. You can finally forget about the retreat to Earth as the only safe option. Worth nearly 3000 m/sec delta V.
So the moon is worthy goal- but it is the practice of developing self-sustaining colonies that is the real barrier.
V is for Vision (Score:4, Insightful)
What exactly is the vision? The founding document [nasa.gov] [large PDF warning] for the "VSE" lists goals and strategies, but no vision of what the goals and strategies are meant to accomplish. A vision involving the Moon could be "create a new civilization on the Moon that might do for the U.S. what the New World colonies did for the Old World." (you can snicker but that is an example).
"Go to the Moon and Mars" is not a vision. It's an strategy.
"Build launchers and spacecraft based on current infrastructure & technology" is an implementation of that strategy.
Again... what is the vision?
Re:Bush Screws Up Everything He Touches (Score:4, Interesting)
Manned asteroid missions have little if anything to do with asteroid deflection strategies. If you want to keep the Earth safe from big nasty dinosaur-killers, you spend money on tracking every Earth crossing Asteroid in the sky, not on sending people to 1 or 2 of them. Early detection of potential dangers makes any deflection strategy (almost certainly unmanned, despite what your favourite movies might tell you) more plausible
The purpose of visiting asteroids is looking for something to mine or doing science to investigate the origins of the solar system.
Re:So it begins (Score:4, Insightful)