Alzheimer's Treatment Mooted

aminorex writes "Enbrel (etanercept) has been immediately, markedly, and consistently effective in all Alzheimer's patients, according to a report in Science Daily. The original research article is available online at the Journal of Neuroinflammation web site. "We can see cognitive and behavioral improvement in a patient with established dementia within minutes of therapeutic intervention" comments one Journal editor." "All Alzheimer's patients" may be over-optimistic, but according to the article, though the research it concerns has been heavily focused on a single patient, "many other patients with mild to severe Alzheimer's received the treatment and all have shown sustained and marked improvement."

Bad Title

Mooted... I do not think you know what that word means.

actually, they do

But it's an annoying fucking word, because its two meanings are actually opposite of one another:

1. To bring up as a subject for discussion or debate.

2. Of no practical importance; irrelevant.

Very obnoxious word that way.

Re:actually, they do

1. To bring up as a subject for discussion or debate.
2. Of no practical importance; irrelevant.

Seeing how effecient and successful the UN runs, I think perhaps you could read that as "To bring up as a subject for discussion or debate is of no practical importance and irrelevant".

Glad we cleared that up.

Re:actually, they do

You're not entirely correct. You've taken one correct meaning and split it into two incorrect halves, then ratified the second half by confusing conjugations.

The verb "[to] moot [something]" is to raise an issue for the specific purpose of displaying it to be unimportant; this is the sense in which the article uses the word. Mooting something is an active and target-specific process whose intent is to weed out irrelevancies. If you have done either 1 or 2, but not the other, you have not mooted something. There is only one meaning, and it is not internally inconsistant at all.

Meaning number two is also the way the past tense adjective is spelled/pronounced. However, it is common in English to have an action and its result adjective be the same, despite that the result adjective represents only the end state of the action: I shot him, he was shot; what you've suggested is to point out that shot has two meanings, one to engage in the act of shooting someone, and also two, to be in the state representing having been hit by a bullet. The verb and its past tense correlated adjective are simply frequently structured thusly.

It's interesting, though, that this divide should seem apparent.

Re:

Since (2) is the only meaning that people seem familiar with, can we geeks perhaps agree to never, ever use that word in the (1) context again, or just abandon it altogether?

Thanks,

Re:

Probably just one of those vertical-flip typos.
What he meant was "w00ted!".

How about a study with n1?

I'm really not sure why this "study" was worth publishing. Where are the statistics of patient status after injection of drug vs. injection of drug-free control? How about a timecourse? Or anything besides anecdotes from one patient?

The hype on the article compared to what is shown is shocking. Even if the compound is a silver bullet that instantly and completely reverses Alzheimer's, you'd never know it from a paper like this. So this is an essentially useless bit of PR.

Re:How about a study with n1?

Also, this is a widely prescribed drug! It seems unlikely that it has massive, instantaneous effects on cognitive function that no one has noticed before.

As with the miraculous improvement in solar power efficiency in the next story, I'd love for this to work out but am not holding my breath.

Re:How about a study with n1?

Also, this is a widely prescribed drug! It seems unlikely that it has massive, instantaneous effects on cognitive function that no one has noticed before.

I know it's wrong to read the article, but to work on Alzheimer's, the drug was injected into the spine. This is definitely an off-label use. Most likely, it doesn't cross the blood brain barrier. If this works, it might be possible to make a similar drug which can cross it.

Re:

It isn't likely that AmGen would attempt to revise the structure of etanercept as they would then have painstakingly go back though every phase of clinical trials again with even the slightest modification. If they use the same product, they only need to

Re:

It's also not likely that AmGen or Wyeth will work from Enbrel simple because it's a huge protein structure. 51234.9 g/mol is not tiny by any measure. Tweaking a protein to get through the blood brain barrier might not be the best way to go. This may be ju

Re:

There is a spot on the journal article [jneuroinflammation.com] to leave comments -- why don't you start a discussion there where knowledgeable people can comment on it?

Re:

Uh, it's been a few years since I took Human A&P, but last time I checked, if you were injecting something into the spine (i.e., in a manner similar to doing an lumbar puncture), you WERE crossing the blood-brain barrier.

As for this drug, hell, who kno

Re:

The AC who wrote the parent to your post obviously knew that. He/she was saying that it doesn't cross the BBB when used on-label, not off-label.

Re:

Creatine is another inexpensive drug that has amazing positive effects on PTSD and Alcoholism, for example.

Drug usage by large numbers of patients means we have a lot of literature on side effects and dosage levels of course.

So it's not bad that many peopl

Results of a few minutes of work

My two-minute Pubmed screening (dinner's getting cold) shows that it seems that this guy's more recent papers, at least, are all technical note-like submissions in online journals. He also has some noted conflicts of interest. However, there is one pilot study. I don't know if this [nih.gov] link will work without going through Pubmed, but this is a year-old pilot study that is probably not the one referenced in the article. They basically conclude, like so many other pilots, that the treatment is promising but needs more rigorous study.

Re:

How would censoring a potential Alzheimer's cure (and one that makes sense based on fairly well-established theory) on the basis of the methodology used to conduct the research improve the scenario?

If the research doesn't hold up, the community will figu

Re:

Somebody hasn't looked up the references! There was a prior 6 month study with IIRC 15 participants. Linky: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/529176 [medscape.com]

Log term effects?

Do we really want to put people on new drugs like this? What if in 40 years all these people come down with some kind of cancer?

Re:

From the original article:

potential risks of etanercept, including infection, cytopenias, possible increased risk of lymphoma and demyelinating disease, death, eye inflammation, and congestive heart failure;

Re:

Yes but it allows you to make a fortitude roll to negate the side-effects.

Re:

Not sure if you're kidding but aren't most Alzheimer's patients old enough that 40 years down the road isn't a big concern for them?

Re:

Do we really want to put people on new drugs like this? What if in 40 years all these people come down with some kind of cancer?

Do the math.

I think a 75 year old diagnosed with alzheimer's wouldn't blink at taking a chance on that. Coming down with cancer

Re:Log term effects?

Do we really want to put people on new drugs like this? What if in 40 years all these people come down with some kind of cancer?

Do the math.

I think a 75 year old diagnosed with alzheimer's wouldn't blink at taking a chance on that. Coming down with cancer at 115 is not going to impact him much. He'll probably have died 15-25 years prior.

Slasdot. Where everyone plays the straight man, without even realizing it.

Re:

Captain obvious to the rescue!

"I still don't know what sarcasm is, but whatever it is, it must be stopped!"

Re:

What if in 40 years all these people come down with some kind of cancer?

Well, let's see. Since Alzheimer's is predominantly a disease that effects the elderly, I think you'll find quite a few of them willing to take risks like that.

Re:

Do we really want to put people on new drugs like this? What if in 40 years all these people come down with some kind of cancer?

Is there a single person with Alzheimer's Disease and a life expectancy > 40 years? Somehow I think that's an acceptable risk

Re:

Is there a single person with Alzheimer's Disease and a life expectancy > 40 years? Somehow I think that's an acceptable risk.

No.

The average person with Probable Alzheimer's Disease status (there is no such thing as certain, until we take your brain and

Re:Log term effects?

I know you're joking, but I'll take cancer over Alzheimer's. Even if the drug directly caused it. I may die in miserable pain, but I'll die as me.

Alzheimer's and growing old

For all the medical problems society obsesses over treatments for (cancer, aids, and other popular areas), Alzheimer's (and senility in general) is the one that scares me the most. I would rather die in pain, with my mind intact, than slowly forget who I am.

My paternal grandmother died before Alzheimer's was well recognized, but in retrospect it's pretty likely to be the cause of her condition. My grandfather, having seen his wife forget who he was, was always far more afraid of going down that same path than he was of his own approaching end - and I can easily see his point.

The worst part about growing old isn't physical frailty... it's the slow breakdown of cognitive power. Of course, as a 33-year-old I can say this with absolute authority. The worst part of *that* is that it doesn't wait to start until you're old, either. I'm sure most of you have noticed changes over the years, and not all of them good.

Here's a question that's been on my mind lately. How would most of you rate changes to how your mind has worked over the years? Have you noticed your reflexes aren't what they were when you were a teenager? Looking at any older writings of yours, have you ever had the feeling that your imagination may have grown more refined, but also lost some of it's raw power at some point? Regardless of the cognitive rewards of time and experience, are there any earlier capabilities that you feel you may have lost some grip on, or even noticed more clearly in younger coworkers or relatives than you used to?

In my case, for example, I've noticed that in a video game, I just don't react to unexpected situations quite as fast or well as I used to. I remember charging into a room in Doom, blasting everything I saw and dodging almost every shot - whereas lately I tend to get hit more often - I don't do the duck-and-dodge like I did in my teens and early 20's. On the other hand, I'm much more calculating in every move I make, and find it easier to manipulate computer opponents than it used to be - even with all the advances in AI. I don't have the raw speed and reaction time that I used to, but the intellectual component comes more readily and with virtually no effort compared to before.

What do you younger guys think of the minds of older coworkers? What about any of you in your 30's and 40's, in dealing with people younger or older than you on an intellectual level? And of the most interest to me, how do you geezers (I know there's some who come here - maybe even a handful) relate to us 30-somethings? Do we seem like slightly inexperienced versions of your peers? Or do we seem like idiot children with fast reflexes but weak comprehension?

Re:

From personal experience I tend to 'learn' a response to certain situations (patterns of AI in games for eg). The first few instances are all reaction, but as time goes on it starts to become stimulus-response. I suspect that as you get older you accumulat

Only really seeing one effect, but it's a big one.

Most of my cow-orkers are idiots, regardless of age, so I guess that the only conclusion I can draw from this is that as I've gotten older (I just turned 38 a couple of weeks ago) I've grown more cynical and less tolerant of others' mental shortcomings. ;-

Re:

The worst part about growing old isn't physical frailty... it's the slow breakdown of cognitive power. Of course, as a 33-year-old I can say this with absolute authority.

I'm sure circumstances vary widely, but my experience is just the opposite. In the l

Re:

Whether it's brain or body, the rule of fitness in nature is use it or lose it. If you're not exercising your brain and your body every day you can expect them to deteriorate. Some forms of deterioration are more permanent than others. The aging process ce

Actually, the other way around

Actually, being in the 30's too, I'd say it's exactly the opposite image than you paint.

One thing I've eventually recognized, and struck me as very interesting, is that your own impression of how much you know doesn't depend on age, as such. If you were to

Re:

I picked Doom because virtually everyone here could identify with that - and because intense experiences make it easier to recall your train of thought years later. I originally was going to mention books and how you interpreted them differently over time

Re:

Regarding your theory, I think it may be spot-on, I seem to remember reading that studies have shown precisely this, that men with more frequent ejaculations run less risk of prostate cancer.

Regarding the very sudden disappearance of your sex drive, I thin

Re:

Still unsure if you're a troll, but... the statistical corellation between the frequency of ejaculations and prostate cancer likelyhood is well-documented. Sex is good for you, even if you do it one-handed!

Just In Time for Terry!

With any luck this treatment will be (a) effective enough, and (b) available enough in the UK for it to have a positive effect on Terry Pratchett's condition.

Re:

So, I see that the plan has worked:

http://somethingpositive.net/sp12232007.shtml [somethingpositive.net]

(Hopefully this will be the start of a good treatement to all those afflicted by this disease)

I'm pumping this

This news is very bright. I've seen the effects of Alzheimer's, and it can be horrifically damaging not only to the immediate sufferer, but to their entire family. This sort of dramatically, immediately effective solution for a very real and pressing hum

Re:

Don't be so sure about the generics at this point. Etanercept is a biological (conjugated soluble TNF-alpha receptors, if I'm not mistaken) and the high costs of getting into biotech, as well as the lack of any clear regulatory pathway for 'biosimilars' ha

I would take this with a grain of HCl

The scientific discussion is still ongoing, IMHO.

The problem mostly is that we're still dealing with symptoms and not with the underlying mechanistic fault that causes AD.

For example, we're investigating various drugs that remove plaque in the brain, but t

Re:

You might like some NaOH to go with that HCl.

Re:

...for those of you that had chem at 8am on a monday, when you combine those two you get salt @ water. I just had to point that out because I thought it a particularly funny nerd-joke and I didn't want anyone to miss it.

Re:

I was going to use NaCl, but I thought Hydrochloric Acid would be much more fun.

By the way, don't use dihydroxide, it's poison!

One patient? Competing interests?

While the basic biology seems sound, this result is from only one patient while one of the authors holds stock in the company that manufactures the drug and has applied for several patents for its use in treating Alzheimer's.

Pardon me while I await the large sample, randomized controlled double-blind study by authors with no competing interests to confirm these findings.

Hello, my name is timothy.

I'm not a doctor, but as a Slashdot Editor, I feel free to correct those who are.

I, for one, am quite relieved.

Now, who are you again?

Pittsburgh Compound

It's an old article, but if you really want to know about Alzheimer's research, look into what they've been able to do using the Pittsburgh Compound [sciencedaily.com].