Ever-Happy Mouse Sheds Light on Depression 452
An anonymous reader writes "Scientists have bred a strain of mouse that's permanently cheerful, in hopes of better understanding and treating depression in people. By breeding mice lacking the TREK-1 gene, which is involved in serotonin transmission, researchers were able create a depression-resistant strain. They say it's the first time depression has been eliminated through genetic alteration of an organism."
Lets call him (Score:5, Funny)
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Brain Candy (Score:3, Interesting)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0116768/ [imdb.com]
Extremely Happy Mice? (Score:3, Funny)
Obligatory (Score:2, Funny)
Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
He was successful in college and in work thanks to these drugs, but was he truly happy without poetry and music?
Maybe Winston Smith can shed some light on this.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:4, Funny)
So he can't write songs anymore, he can still be a shoe salemen, CEO or a Senator.
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Or beter yet, a well integrated nice little drone.
Bland little drones that accept their place in life, don't make waves and don't try to get ahead in life are the backbone of our society.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
To quote Trent Reznor: "I don't write a lot when I'm happy."
I have a theory that says that the function of modern art is for the viewer to live vicariously through the artist's insanity. Van Gogh was famous for this. So was Leonard Cohen, Janis Joplin, Kurt Cobain, Alan Ginsberg, Salvador Dali, and Jackson Pollock, to name a few.
Perhaps the question isn't "can he be happy without his poetry", but "can he make good poetry without his sadness".
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Feeling happy about one's position, on the other hand, can sometimes require additional experiences to gain an appreciation for one's circumstances. This is readily apparent in children. If they're whining about something or other, and instead of placating them you make things worse, they're happy once
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:4, Funny)
I was depressed because I sucked as an artist.
Then I quit art, and started fixing computers for a living.
I'm much happier now.
And I'm told my code is sheer poetry. (damn groupies)
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Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not a big fan of permanently medicating the mind unless absolutely necessary... but when I had a episode of depression brought on by major illness, I wasn't thinking about poetry and music.
I was thinking pretty much constantly about killing myself. Not little fantasies "God I should just shoot myself." No... we're talking cold, calm, and consistent thoughts. Very frightening in retrospect and even more frightening that it felt so normal at the time.
Thank goodness I had family/friends to point me towards medical care. Lexapro changed that like a light switch, and the depression (and anti-depressants) are just a memory. But for some the depression is chronic and the treatment will probably need to be permanent.
And yes, before that happened I never understood the potential severity and use for anti-depressants either. Anti-depressants aren't just about turning off maudlin thoughts of missing your dead turtle.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Funny)
And Lexapro can change your life too! Call 800-678-1605 or visit lexapro.com today!
Lexapro can cause nausea, insomnia, problems with ejaculation, somnolence, increased sweating, fatigue, decreased libido, and anorgasmia. Most of the side effects experienced by patients taking Lexapro are mild to moderate and go away with continued treatment, and usually do not cause patients to stop taking Lexapro.
Some drugs are therapeutic (Score:3, Informative)
My personal growth has been in leaps and bounds over the course of my therapy and I've never been happier in my life.
BUT, I've also experienced the depths of sadness and anger (and all their variations). I am now able to experience those feelings without being drawn down to the depths of depression
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well is writing wasn't making him happy, probably good that he stopped. Writing can make you think a lot about your problems, and if this is something you find it hard to handle (or you have some major problems), then it can be a negative event.
Being happy means not thinking too much about the bad things.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Informative)
If your brain chemistry is sufficiently fucked up, nothing makes you happy. That's what depression is - the inability to take joy from anything.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
That phrase is about valium abuse in the 60s, not antidepressants which take 4 weeks to begin working. Mental illness is a real illness and youre attitude certainly doesnt help. You have a friend who is sick and takes a drug to normalize his moods and you're mocking him? Calling him doped up? Gee, no wonder he's depressed. With friends like you who needs enemies?
As far as the 'kills creativity' argument goes. Who knows. I think its vastly overplayed. "Art" created by people who are depressed or manic tends to be shit anyway. The people with real talent will always shine through regardless of moods. Tons of creative people have been treated for some kind of mental illness and they remained producive afterwards.
If the normalization effect makes someone say "I'd rather do this now" then more power to them. Not to mention, depression kills, I'd rather have a living friend than a suicide victim songmaker.
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Funny)
Radical capitalist vampires? No, I haven't, but I think I might like to.
KFG
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Today's Philosphical question... (Score:5, Insightful)
You find that you spend less time planning your suicide than you used to.
May not generalize to humans (Score:5, Funny)
Take my Trek away from me and I get depressed.
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I beleive I am capable of thinking dispairing thoughts if needed, without having to be depressed. But from past experience I have found that repeating thought patterns which carry subtle emotional cues will have more emotional impact over time, which are very difficult to get rid of once they take hold.
If this is the case then it is best to have a change in enviroment and focus on changing your thought patterns.
Anyway,
Makes you not care? (Score:4, Insightful)
I wonder how closely depression and negative emotions like outrage, regret, etc are tied together? If I'm unable to be depressed, would I be able to care about what seems to be a series of bad things shaping the world? People I've met on anti-depressants can be pretty non-chalant regarding just about everything, so long as they're on their pills.
If you can see where I'm going with this, you're probably a paranoid conspiracy theorist too.
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:5, Interesting)
To give you at least some help: Part of the reason for the apathy of the anti-depressant crowd is that the most common anti-depressants are serotonin boosters (SSRIs), and serotonin is an inhibitory neurotransmitter. Now, certain other antidepressants (e.g, MAOIs) work by boosting other neurotransmitters, and can handle depression without apparently leading to the kind of apathy/nonchalance you're talking about.
With the usual Slashdot disclaimer: I am not a psychiatrist.
Eivind.
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:5, Interesting)
Personally, I think that's a small sacrifice to keep from wanting to KILL YOURSELF!
When someone's clinically depressed, the whole world is in shades of grey to them. Things that would normally bring joy are met at best with indifference and anger at worst. Interest in eating and having sex wanes. Social activities and obligations are ignored, along with housework. They feel listless and sleep more.
Then there's the extreme sadness and suicidal tendencies.
Personally, I wouldn't mind not caring for the 4 months out of the year that I'm depressed.
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:5, Informative)
Society should think of modern anti-depressents as you would a prosthetic for a person born without a leg. Although unnatural, it corrects a problem, bringing sufferers closer to "normal". Of course, becuase you cannot SEE my handicap, people assume that it is not there, and my condition is a character flaw or choice. This is not true, I have no control over it just as a schizophrenic has no choice in the perception of their hallucinations. Not everyone who is depressed needs these aids, but for sufferers of long term, chronic depression these medications are lifesavers, quite literally. Research and discoveries like those in the article bolster my confidence that future treatments will bring me even closer to normal.
I am surpremely grateful that I live in the age of modern psychopharmacology, I am quite positive that I would not be here if it did not exist.
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:5, Informative)
A truly depressed person can be provoked into a feeling of uselessness over trivial or simply non-existent events. The depression can result in more then just a little remorse or sadness. They can want to kill themselves or refuse to do anything. Further, such depression can last far longer then is appropriate. If you are depression resistant on the other hand, you keep on pushing forward. You never get the "lay down and die" feeling. You can still be sad, frustrated, or remorseful, but such feelings are not so over powering that you can't do anything else
Personally, I applaud any good research into depression. Despite arguments to the contrary, depression IS an illness that is completely worthy of treatment. While depression can be invoked through events in one's life, some times (if not most of the time) it is a purely physical problem in the brain that deserves treatment like any other disease. That is not to imply that psychotherapy does not have its uses, but the belief that a depressed person can simply be talked out of a depression is utterly insane and down right dangerous for some. If all that is standing between happiness in a depressed person is a flipped chemical switch in the brain, they should have the option of getting that switch flipped. I appreciate the work of tortured artists as much as anyone, but I don't want to see my loved ones suffer or pull a Kurt Cobain just to keep my MP3 player filled.
Modern Antidepressants are not "Happy Pills" (Score:4, Informative)
The parent post and a number of other posts in this thread showcase the lack of understanding people have of depression and the medication used to treat it.
Depression is not sadness. It a serious mental illness that has very detrimental effects on a person's well being and livelyhood. There is no relationship between depression or its treatment and ones ability to feel emotions like outrage and regret.
Antidepressants are used to treat clinical depression. They are not "happy pills." I personally suffered from depression combined with panic disorder that set in approximately two years ago. Since then I have been taking Lexapro which effectively treated my depression and continues to treat my panic disorder. I don't run around feeling happy all day and I still very much posess the ability to feel sad, happy, angry, outraged and regretful.
I especially can't believe the parent's comment about people being non-chalant while on antidepressants. People who make the decision to take antidepressants don't just pop them like tylenol. They take antidepressants because of a mental illness. Did you consider that it could be the depression that is making these people non-chalant? When you're consumed by your own depression it's a little bit difficult not to be non-chalant about what's going on around you. You have bigger things to worry about.
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There's a great data point that shows that antidepressants don't artificially make you happy.
They don't have any street value. If they made you happy (that's pretty much what "getting high" means) then people would illicitly abuse them.
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Sometimes it's better not to care. Imagine if, like many here, you're gifted with the ability to see patterns and how things work. Apply this to everyday life as represented in /., or by working in the programming industry. Consequences:
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not scared of the dark side of me... I'm scared of the years of misery and pain (physical as well as mental and emotional) that I had before my depression was treated. I'm not out of the woods yet but I don't feel sad and in pain every second of every day. I dislike some of the side effects of my anti-depressants (apathy towards waking up at a set time, eliminates some of my creativity) but I consider the side effects a small price to pay for what I get in return. Research like this makes me hopeful towards better treatments with fewer side effects and I don't have to give anything or as much up to feel... okay.
I'm not happy all the time (nor would I want to be). I think I have a fuller range of emotions than I did before. I have a heightened empathy because I don't need to focus as much of my energy on my emotions all the time. I like being able to be sad sometimes and happy othertimes which I really couldn't get before.
Re:Makes you not care? (Score:5, Insightful)
In situational depression, e.g. death of a loved one, there is a clear exogenous cause of the depression. This is normal, and is usually worked out "solo" or through counseling, sans medication, or in some intractable cases with short-term use of medication. However, chronic clinical depression, dysthymic disorder, and their ilk are pathological. Depression is a disease. Your method works for most healthy people, but a clinically depressed patient is in open-loop mode: logic, reasoning and "working it out," as you say, don't work. It is wonderful that you are healthy and have worked out your own problems on your own sans pills, but the lives of countless people--whose brains are wired differently than you--have been saved or extended by antidepressants.
Insightful? Believe it or not, there are people who cannot function or would be dead were it not for antidepressants and counseling. Talk to people who have had the actual disease. Empathy will come to you as you grow up and get outside your own myopic view of the universe.
Chandra
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What about appropriate depression ? (Score:2, Insightful)
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Even if biochemically they may be similar, there is a major difference: Grief is a temporary imbalance in body chemistry, whereas depression is a new balance altogether.
Re:What about appropriate depression ? (Score:5, Interesting)
It may actually work the other way around.
See, the brain (and not only in humans) is nicely tuned to keep needing the next thing to be happy about. Whenever you have some achievement (even small ones, like getting food when you're hungry) the brain gives itself a "yay, I'm happy" chemical signal, but that's followed immediately by releasing the "antidote" to that signal, to get back to the baseline. So you'll need the next achievement for your next moment of joy.
It's what keeps humans and all animals active. It's why your cat plays and thus trains its reflexes daily, instead of vegetating in a corner, still happy that it played last month.
In human society it's also a very important factor in why, for example, consumerism is alive and kicking, and keeping the capitalist economy going well past the point where just the needs are covered. People keep having these illusions like "man, I would be soo happy if I had that one more gadget/shirt/etc", and they do get happy about it... for a very brief time. Then they need their next achievement. And in turn, getting caught in the consumerism race also keeps them in the rat race at work, and taking shit they otherwise wouldn't put up with.
You can see in "video game addiction" cases what happens when people can stay continuously happy. It's not really physiological addiction, but good games give people small rewards often, which triggers the "yay, I'm happy" signal in the brain. There's always one more quest you finished, one more recipe you learned, one more item that you sold at the auction house (or IRL on eBay), one more boss you defeated, one more equipment piece you found, etc. So some people, which are kept happy enough by that, end up not doing anything else. You can see cases going all the way to playing for a month and then dropping dead.
So my take is that if someone actually produced genetically-engineered humans which are permanently happy, those humans would be even worse. They wouldn't even need video games to stay happy, so they probably wouldn't bother even with that. If you can be perfectly happy sitting on the couch watching the wall, you don't need to do anything else. You don't even need to buy a TV. Nor take shit from a PHB and do overtime to afford a huge plasma TV and a fashionable house in the suburbs. You get the idea.
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Or alternatively if you could take control of your own pleasure system you could train your brain to learn anything. Like if I had to learn something particularly boring I could switch my brain into a happy state so that it associates a happy tag to this particular event and so would be desirable to repeat the event in future. Though you've got the difficulty of the brain associating happy states to pressing the happy button, I suppose you could avoid that by having an external operato
As much a bug as a feature (Score:3, Insightful)
There is considerable truth in what you say. But the neurochemical aspect of this pheno
Reavers?! (Score:2, Insightful)
Kill the damn things (Score:4, Funny)
NO GOOD CAN COME OF THIS
a similar effect in humansth (Score:4, Interesting)
Is it a good idea to get rid of stress-related (causing) mechansims? A stress free life maybe a very exciting prospect for an individual for about a month or a year, but is this going to be good from point of view of the bigger picture? If humans did not stress about things at all, would they bother doing anything, like bothering to find food, protecting the offspring, basically surviving as a species?
Re:a similar effect in humansth (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, wow man, you've seen me, huh?
KFG
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Re:a similar effect in humans (Score:3, Funny)
Seeing Rosanne Barr naked in the streets would sober my ass right up, and depress me, all in one shot.
Don't get excited yet (Score:5, Informative)
The article seems very light. There's lots of interesting stuff to be found if you google for "trek-1 gene".
Exciting Applications! (Score:5, Funny)
PETA spokesman: You're abusing animals in your lab, you fiend.
Scientist: But they're happy!
PETA spokesman: How can they be happy with you jabbing them with needles every half hour? Among OTHER things.
Scientist: Easy - they're permanently cheerful, no matter what we do to 'em. We engineered 'em that way.
PETA spokesman: >.
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If it is regarded ethically acceptable to ask people to take them (or unethical to deny them access!), they will become a commodity item at least for the rich, depending on production prices. I expect employers who fire people who do not use such drugs, insurances with better rates for users, politicians demanding a supp
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The waiter approached.
'Would you like to see the menu?' he said,
'or would you like meet the Dish of the Day?'
'Huh?' said Ford.
'Huh?' said Arthur.
'Huh?' said Trillian.
'That's cool,' said Zaphod, 'we'll meet the meat.'
- snip -
A large dairy animal approached Zaphod Beeblebrox's table, a large fat meaty quadruped of the bovine type with large watery eyes, small horns and what might almost have been an ingratiating smile on its lips.
'Good evening', it lowed and sat back heavily on
Interesting news (Score:2)
The point here is to catch on to better treatments because even if the depression-triggering factors are remo
I'm not sure I like this (Score:2)
I mean, call me old-fashioned, but we are people exactly because we have the full spectrum of emotions, all of which have influenced our society and creativity.
Sure, a society full of happy people is a nice goal to strive towards, but isn't the right way to approach this actually improving society, to make it more suitable for humans, and a happier environment to live in?
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I mean, call me old-fashioned, but we are people exactly because we have the full spectrum of emotions, all of which have influenced our society and creativity.
What if there were people that already had this genetic difference naturally. Are they somehow less than human?
The problem as I see it is that unhappiness is often what fuels innovation. If everyone is sitting around completely content with their lives all the time, who's going to come up with anything new?
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Of course not. But I'm still not sold on genetically engineering other people to be like them. I mean, we are not talking about some horrible condition.
It's like genetically engineering everybody to have blue eyes. Is it really necessary?
People are not Mice (Score:3, Insightful)
Mice wake up, eat, sh!t and run on their wheel.
Mice DON'T change the world. Mice invent new tools to save back breaking labor.
Mice don't feel taunted by the universe, to figure out it's secrets.
Mice don't get depressed because a loved one is dying of cancer, and work tirelessly seeking, supporting, and funding medical research. (then again I think Mice get the raw end of this particular desire of Man)
I am not a rat in cage.
I am not a tool to be made happy so I can work longer at a job I should hate.
Keep your chemical paradise, I'll take life for all it's worth.
Re:People are not Mice (Score:5, Funny)
42, Dude. 42.
KFG
It's a start (Score:5, Funny)
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You don't know many goths, do you? I think you have Goths and Emo-Kiddies confused.
Re:It's a start (Score:4, Funny)
You say that like it's a bad thing...
Obligatory Cynical Futurist Post (Score:2)
Of course, it's p
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That's why they don't approve condoms, pills, and as the other answer to your post said, make-me-feel-happy drugs. And they control the government too (Have you ever voted for an atheist
Oblig H2G2 (Score:3, Funny)
Depression like pain? (Score:2)
I'm going on a edge here, as not all depressions have clear causes, but I'd say most depressions are symptoms of unhealthy emotional behaviour, like not being able to bond to another human e.g. Much like not all pain has a clear cause, but mostly it's just you hitting yourself on the thumb with a hammer or such. Taking aw
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Contrary to popular belief, depression is to a large degree a physical thing. It is possible to treat with talk therapy, but it's more reliable to treat with a clinical diet (well over 95% reliability) or heavy exercise. It is sourced from stress, both physical and mental.
And depression generally isn't motivating. It's the exhaustion stage, where you have very little motivation left, because you've spent your reserves.
I'm tryin
It's like Serenity! (Score:2, Informative)
Side-Effects, Now Permanently Ingrained (Score:2)
Increased thoughts of suicide in teens.
Decreased libido.
When they find you're suffering side effects of one, they phase you over to another in the hopes of dodging those side effects.
You'd really want to be damned sure the source wasn't simply your body's reaction to its own seratonin in larger quantities before you modified genes and made it permanent. As far as I'm aware, you generally can't simply switch to a different set of genes if one set isn't working so well.
Mice (Score:2)
Depression exists for a reason.... (Score:2)
I would think it axiomatic that most thinkers like Einstein and Newton have had long and frequent bouts of depression. An uncaring, nonchalant, ever-smiling drone is useless in real life - unless one is a politician,
Prior Art (Score:2)
Wow. (Score:2)
Life. Don't talk to me about life.
Exercise... (Score:3, Informative)
First (mis)read (Score:4, Funny)
The first time I read the last line I thought it said They say it's the first time depression has been eliminated through genetic alteration of an orgasm
I thought no shit it's going to be happy. A happy little boinker. Boinky, boinky, boinky.
Miranda anyone? (Score:5, Funny)
Wait till they get a look at the mice that end up like the Reavers!
Re:How the hell... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How the hell... (Score:4, Informative)
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Minnie's unconsious, Daisy is limping, and Goofy is hiding in a tree...
What have we done!? We should never have played god!
Re:How the hell... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:How the hell... (Score:5, Insightful)
So, yes, you can argue with any one model, but, precisely because of such arguments, articles (in Nature at least) prepare for them in advance - really, as much as is possible. If someone doesn't agree to results like this, then perhaps he/she just have a problem with the whole model of using animals to test human conditions; but this model has been proven time and again in giving eventual benefit to research on humans.
Of course, this result should be replicated by outside labs before we accept it. But it sounds like good research so far.
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Re:How the hell... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:How the hell... (Score:5, Funny)
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I assume it starts with exposure to Form 1040, then Schedules A, C, asset depreciation rules, and a lot of coffee. It's all downhill from there.
Comment removed (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So let me get this straight (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So let me get this straight (Score:5, Funny)
So, did that English course go well?
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Re:So let me get this straight (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So let me get this straight (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:So let me get this straight (Score:5, Funny)
Said mice were last over heard singing Monty Python's,"Always look on the bright side of life."
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P.S. Your singing mice link points to the plague-infected story?
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Obligatory Futurama Quote (Score:3, Funny)