Thirsty People Feel More Pain

Bifurcati writes "Being thirsty makes you more sensitive to pain, according to a recent study. By simultaneously doing brain scans, new areas of the brain were activated when both pain and thirst were present, apparently making the pain more "painful" - perhaps a survival method so that pain is prioritized over thirst. They'd like to do more research, but ethical issues make it tough - even these subjects had to spend three hours being poked and prodded!"

Dehydration and pain - link known for nearly 30yrs

The relationship between dehydration and pain has been studied for nearly 30 years by the late Fereydoon Batmanghelidj M.D., an expert in the body's water chemistry. Many such links are documented on his web site [watercure.com] and in his books [abebooks.com].

I am currently reading Y [watercure.com]

Riiiiiight....

"He is arguing for a new scientific approach that turns clinical medicine on its head."

Daily Mail, London, UK

That sounds credible.

Re:Dehydration and pain - link known for nearly 30

by the late Fereydoon Batmanghelidj M.D.

Does he introduce himself by saying, "I'm Batman!...ghelidj" ?

Re:Dehydration and pain - link known for nearly 30

by the late Fereydoon Batmanghelidj M.D.

Does he introduce himself by saying, "I'm Batman!...ghelidj" ?

I don't think he'll be introducing himself to anyone anytime soon....

Re:Dehydration and pain - link known for nearly 30

What few people realize is that Dr. Batmanghelidj is really Bruce Wayneghelidj's alter ego. Everybody knows that the Wayneghelidj Water has a stranglehold on the world's water distribution networks, so who really benefits if everyone drinks more water? ;)

Re:Dehydration and pain - link known for nearly 30

I particularly like Dr. B's statement:

I hold the idea that the AIDS is not a viral disease, but is a metabolic disorder precipitated by an exaggerated way of life.

Although, I must admit that, "'Bad' Cholesterol: A Myth and a Fraud" was nearly as interesting.

While it's interesting when somebody smart posits a contrarian view or two, the people who seem to think that essentially everything about prevailing theory is wrong are usually... well... nuts. I couldn't help but notice that very few of his papers had anything in them that indicated that they were actually published by a journal other than his own. Coincidence?

Also that statement is pretty provably false

AIDS develops in people infected with the HIV virus and not elsewhere, it happens in 100% of cases, given a long enough time, and it happens in all regious of the world, to peopel of all different lifestyles. Thus it's orety well proven that indeed the HIV virus is the cause of AIDS.

Now of course it's always possible that this is wrong, but you'd need some pretty major proof to make that case. My guess is you are right, the guy is a crackpot. Doesn't mean that he doesn't perhaps have a good idea or two, but I'd be wary of what he says in general.

Re: Your sig

... are physically painful to read ...

Drink more water ?

Re:Dehydration and pain - link known for nearly 30

Dr. B.: "I hold the idea that the AIDS is not a viral disease, but is a metabolic disorder precipitated by an exaggerated way of life."

Me: "I have a needle with HIV in blood sera. So you would not mind if I..."

Dr. B: "Uh, wait..."

>> Jab.

Me: "Oops."

D

Re:Witch burning in the 21st century

There's an ocean of difference between being thought nuts and being nuts. Challenging conventional thinking practically guarantees the former, in our age of deadly conformity. However, I find no evidence for anything other than solid scientific research in his book. Dr. Batmanghelidj is certainly not alone in questioning orthodox theories about AIDS.

As I said, it's great when somebody brings in a refreshing point of view. At the same time, when your points of view are always "refreshing" it might mean that you're just stirring up trouble to sell books (or you're simply a kook). The probability of being right given that you're unable to convince the astounding majority of experts of your case is generally not high. It happens, but I'm afraid that Dr. Batmanghelidj is not in good company on the average. Yes, he's not alone in questioning the HIV => AIDS orthodoxy, he is damn near alone, and while serious research in antiretroviral drugs has made a dent in the appearance of AIDS in HIV infected people, I'm not sure what the people who deny the link have managed to do to treat the disease.

The fact that his Foundation chooses to make additional research available under their own banner, in addition to the several papers in independent journals, does not prove it is all hokum.

No, certainly not. At least, not by itself. However, if you combine it with the fact that only a small portion of his work is actually published and the larger volume of it is self published, that's a little more suspect. Add to that the fact that his really controversial stuff and the work that's really central to what makes him stand out as a "scientist" is also the stuff that has never made it through peer review, and it starts smelling a little less authoritative. This is the same set of arguments creationists and other groups selling pseudoscientific nonsense tend to use. Sometimes we need to remember some of the lessons Carl Sagan taught us: But the fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.

It is not as if peer reviewed journals have a clean slate, given the continual trickle of hoax results (recently Korean Hwang Woo-Suk, Bell Labs' Henrik Schon) so I am not sure that your point is as strong as you may think.

Knocking the peer review process generally earns you some kook points as well. What percentage of peer reviewed articles do you suppose are fraudulent? What percentage of ground breaking work (which his AIDS work certainly would be) that makes it through peer review do you think is wrong? Now compare that number with the percentage of "ground breaking" work posted by random folks on the web. There's a reason good college professors try to teach their students that "got it from the web" is second only to "heard it in a bar" as a serious academic reference.

Dr Batmanghelidj was certainly well aware of the disinterest of industry in his findings; imagine if the popular conception that chemicals should be the universal first resort were rejected in favour of treating chronic dehydration as a first step! That his views are commercially unpalatable (like those of AIDS iconoclasts) is hardly commentary on the quality of his research.

And then the appeal to the widespread conspiracy. Adding up the points...

Certainly, our society does tend to over medicate. Medication is a profitable industry, too. But don't you think you'd be seeing more whistle blowers if it were all some conspiracy to keep us taking AIDS drugs? Something doesn't smell right with that assumption. Sometimes when nobody agrees with you, you're just wrong. It doesn't always mean you're a misunderstood genius or you're tearing down The Man.

I stop to defend the man because I am tired of the sam

Re:Witch burning in the 21st century

Let people assess it for themselves, try his therapies, and perhaps add to the rather impressive roster of testimonials he offers in his book!

Bullshit. Repeat after me: the plural of anecdote is not evidence. Only controlled experimental studies can sh

Re:Dehydration and pain - link known for nearly 30

Particularly compelling in that book is Dr Batmanghelidj's thorough scientific explanation on how 'diet' sodas actually substantially contribute to weight gain.

Could you expound (summarize) on that, please?

I quit diet soda myself a while back on a diet, bu

Re:Dehydration and pain - link known for nearly 30

+5, Informative? More like -50,000, fucking retarded batshit insane troll.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/myths/8glasses.asp [snopes.com]

Drinking more water, "cures many diseases like arthritis, angina, migraines, hypertension and asthma." Sure thing, Doc. Speaking of water, have I got a bridge to sell you...

Mod parent down

Will somebody please mod the parent comment down? I don't think I have to do much more than quote from one of the "Doctor's" papers [216.122.230.12]:

From "AIDS: More Convincingly A Metabolic Disorder:"

Although the total attention of AIDS research is directed toward its predicted viral etiology, the intestinal stress and tissue cortisone release factor inducd physiology of the body, over a long period of time, and dependent on the mode and frequency of homosexual practice, can possibly be the precipitating cause of this condition. It is proposed that in homosexuals, AIDS is an intestinal stress induced metabolic disorder and, opiod peptides being markers of stress to the regulatory systems of the body, excessive use of opiates can possibly cause an indirect promotion of stress physiology that can bring about the associated immune system inhibition and disturbance"

Translated: Gay people get AIDS because they have too much anal sex.

This "doctor" is entirely incredible, possibly homophobic, and a quack in the most negative sense of the word. No creedence whatsoever should be given to anything that he's written.

what about pleasure?

If not drinking water amplifies pain, wouldn't the same be true from a not-so-distant-cousin, pleasure?

Re:what about pleasure?

If not drinking water amplifies pain, wouldn't the same be true from a not-so-distant-cousin, pleasure?

If getting shot causes pain, wouldn't the same be true for its not-so-distant-cousin, pleasure?

Cue Super Troopers

Erh, yeah... It seems the comment was in jest, but you'd be surprised.

Re:what about pleasure?

If not drinking water amplifies pain, wouldn't the same be true from a not-so-distant-cousin, pleasure?

I dunno, but where can I sign up for the study?

Re:what about pleasure?

No hand-waving needed: the kids born with the really serious abnormalities die off before they have a chance to reproduce. It only takes a couple of generations of that sort of selective pressure to eliminate the seriously bad alleles, or at least reduce

Re:what about pleasure?

In the first generation you would see more "uncommon" and recessive DNA show up. Chances are if it's not the "common" DNA then it's bad mojo.

However, in the second generation your dealing with a smaller pool of DNA so if nothing killed of the first gene

This might be true.

I used to work with a fellow named Mike. He suffered from severe carpal tunnel syndrome, perhaps caused by the decades of typing he had done while programming. He would always drink massive amounts of water and juice while working, saying that it helped his wrists. We'd make fun of him because he had to piss every half hour, but perhaps he was on to something.

Re:This might be true.

I'm betting that taking a couple minute break every 30 minutes wasn't hurting anything either ;)

Re:This might be true.

Hey, maybe the "bathroom breaks" caused the carpal tunnel syndrome in the first place! Anyone check his breifcase for "grown-up" magazines?

Re:This might be true.

He would always drink massive amounts of water and juice while working, saying that it helped his wrists. We'd make fun of him because he had to piss every half hour, but perhaps he was on to something.

It sounds like he may have diabetes II. Especially if

Re:This might be true.

There's a couple possibilities for why this helped: 1)Taking the hand off the mouse and keyboard to grab the glass to drink rests your wrists and allows for a different movement: one of the biggest suggestions for CT sufferers is to take short breaks and exercise your wrists a little. Also the resultant trips to the bathroom give another break from typing (hopefully not exercising his wrists there, though.)

2)Could have a medical condition: diabetes and some liver and kidney disorders can cause polydipsia and associated polyuria: a desire to drink a LOT of water, and then of course the resultant urination. Someone who does not drink this large amount of water could potentially be not flushing out certain toxins or other chemicals.

3)Placebo(tm): the drug against which all others are tested.

Re:This might be true.

Staying properly hydrated also helps address the root cause of the injury, by promoting flexibility of the connective tissue, and allowing the fascia to function properly.

Ethics

Why would it be unethical if the test subjects were made fully aware of what was to be done to them, and were willing to undergo the experiment? Unless somebody was deceived or coerced I don't see how ethics would even come into it.

Re:Ethics

You wouldn't even make it to getting people to consent to something like that because no institutional review board would ever approve it. It's considered unethical regardless of their consent, for so many reasons anyone with any experience in a field that researched on humans should be aware of. And furthermore it's alot easier to get permission to conduct a study with deception, as long as its not deception that's going to really harm them.

Re:Ethics

Maybe if users are made aware of the censorship, censoring search results becomes okay.

How the hell is that even remotely analogous?

It's true...

...all true!
Whenever I've been without a beer for a while, the pain just kicks in man. Oh the terrible pain!

Re:It's true...

I hope this was modded funny because alcohol dehydrates you, but I suspect it was just because of the beer reference.

Foreplay

That's why foreplay is so important so that one can sustain prolonged poking.

Dry == Painful.

I'll probably be modded off topic since no one here would understand what I'm saying.

Re:Foreplay

I'll probably be modded off topic since no one here would understand what I'm saying.

Hey man, we're a lot more oldschool than you think. When my family got our first 286 computer I started to program BASIC and learned all about peeking and poking [wikipedia.org]. A couple times I accidentally poked inside an infinite loop, and the 286 held up quite well -- even over prolonged periods of time.

I'm not sure what foreplay has to do with it, but I did enjoy a good game of Snarf!

Nothing new here

As a former lightweight rower I can vouch for this. Rowing a balls out 2K is hard. Doing it the day after sweating off 10 pounds is just sadistic.

Okay... and?

Previous studies in rats have shown that mild thirst makes the animals feel more pain but severe dehydration actually dulls pain, he says.

So basically, what they're saying is that dehydration & pain follow a curve of some type and that curve peaks relatively early on.

Their conclusion: Be hydrated.

Pain coming from fear?

I am one of the least sensitive-to-pain people you'll ever meet. I used to always feel pain, because I was afraid of feeling pain. But I learned years ago how to ignore that fear -- avoid fearing entirely. Since then, my tolerance for pain is huge. I've broken bones, lost teeth (punch to the face in a bar) and had my share of other situations (cat bites, skateboard accidents, car accident, etc) and my tolerance to pain is impressive. I've even done major dental work without pain killers and passed kidney stones the same way.

I don't drink a lot of fluids. I should (considering the kidney stones), but I don't. I love water, just don't drink a lot of it. I love tea, too, but forget to drink it.

I think feeling pain is often a mind over matter kind of thing. I had a carpenter friend who cut two of his fingers off and didn't feel pain until he noticed it. I had a friend who broke a foot snowboarding and didn't feel pain until he looked at it.

Have there been studies on pain and mind-over-matter situations?

Re:Pain coming from fear?

I must agree. I've always had a major fear of needles, and thus even a simple shot has always hurt for me, yet once I cut my finger open (somewhat deeply) after I thought it would be clever to hit a sheet of plexiglass with a sledgehammer (which exploded

Re:Pain coming from fear?

I don't know about studies, but I think adrenaline is a great pain-killer. I broke my ankle playing basketball. My foot kept falling off the gas pedal on the drive home. I didn't feel any pain until I sat on the couch at home and put ice on it. It quickly

Re:Pain coming from fear?

Considering I've met people with various levels of HSAN, I'm sure your sensitivity to pain is actually quite high. Sensitivity and tolerance for pain are also different concepts. Unless you have late developing CIPA or a similar HSAN disease, I suspect your sensitivity is normal. However, extensive research has been conducted and shown that perception of pain can be controlled by the higher parts of the brain, and thus can be selectively or conditioned to be ignored to various degrees of success. Now this is also different from pain from massive trauma, which is probably an evolutionary mechanism to let you get out of situations that are severely harming you before you have to deal with the pain.
It's not mind over matter, it's just how the mind works. Guess what controls parts of higher order affective pain response? Some abstract construct people call the "mind"? No, hows about parts of the insular cortex.

Where's the problem here?

They'd like to do more research, but ethical issues make it tough - even these subjects had to spend three hours being poked and prodded!

I don't know... sounds like something quite a few people would pay good money for.

the perfect test patient...

Find a self-inflicting sadist, and voila!

Flawed Logic

Fromt the article:

Survival instinct

He says pain is accentuated because it is more important to survival than mild thirst.

"The sensation with the most immediate implications for survival is pushed to the forefront of attention," he said.

Dr Farrell says the findings suggest it could be wise for people who are about to go through a painful experience should drink more water beforehand.

He says evidence from different types of studies also support this relationship between drinking water and pain.

But could people deliberately use dehydration to maximise pain, say via torture?

"We suspect if they got dehydrated enough that the overwhelming sense of thirst would probably make pain less rather than more," he said.

Previous studies in rats have shown that mild thirst makes the animals feel more pain but severe dehydration actually dulls pain, he says.

He says this too makes sense from the point of view of survival.

"If you were very dehydrated it would pay to suppress pain because it might get in the way of your search for water," he said.

Wouldn't that imply that the more hydrated you are, the more salient the pain should be, because then thirst is particularly irrelevant to your current needs? They say that "mild thirst" is not as pressing a survival need as experienced pain--well then, wouldn't NO thirst be even less pressing than the pain? I don't get it. They predict the situation switches for severe dehydration which makes sense (the thirst is more salient than the pain) but they don't explain why the pain should be more salient for mild thirst as compared to slaked thirst.

I would guess the logic in the actual PNAS paper is better. Perhaps it's the reporting here that's got something screwy.

Possibly ignoring other routes?

What I mean is this:
There was an experiment where they stuck a cat and mouse in a cage. The cat ignored the mouse. Absolutely showed no interest in it. But pain was then inflicted on the cat and the cat attacked the mouse until it was dead.

Did the researchers test to see if it's not only pain that the subject feels? Maybe the subject will feel more agitated, stressed, angered, emotional, or a combination?

that's funny....

we just learned this today in anatomy and physiology. It didn't seem like ground-breaking science, just common sense. If you're thirsty, neurons in the pre-optic nucleus are shrinking (crenating) because your plasma fluid compartment is drying up. This creates a hypertonic (or hyperosmotic) environment that literally sucks the water out of your cells. Since your plasma is more concentrated (or has a higher osmolarity), the resting membrane potential goes up because the crenation of your nervous cells causes chemically-operated protein channels to open when they otherwise wouldn't be. This happens all over your body, not just in the pre-optic nucleus (also called the supra-optic nucleus). The crenation at that location (right near where the optic nerves cross eachother) causes those particular cells to pump more Anti-Diuretic Hormone through the pituitary gland, causing your urine volume to decrease (by causing the nephron tubules in your kidneys to reabsorb more water instead of making urine with it), but the same thing happens to cells all over your body when your plasma becomes too concentrated (too dry). In lab today, I had to drink 80ml of water with 7g of NaCl in it, and my feet would fall asleep whenever I stood on them for more than a few minutes. Oh, and I was thirsty and sensitive to pain. Hooray for science!

Re:that's funny....

Couldn't it be because as your body lacks in fluids it raises the sodium and potassium levels in your nervous system, thus raising their efficiency in transmitting?

(These are the sort of questions you get from people who went out with nursing students, lol

Hospice Experiences

I think this is an interesting study. When I nurse, I work hospice. When people are close to death they often tell us to allow them to become dehydrated because it decreases pain sensations. I am curious how this information fits into that.

Of course, we

I will get...

I will get first post in 30 minutes, when everyone that ran off to drink water
has to go pee. My evil plan is working!
Muhahaha
haha
ha
:)

curiously opposite

I have been the victim of "heat stroke" at least once. I set out for a hike at Navajo National Monument [nps.gov] that was deemed a "strenuous dayhike". At the time I was engaged heavily in wilderness trips in the desert conditions of NM, AZ, CO, and UT. On this trip we ednded up running out of water (that we were promised we would be able to refill by rangers) and getting seriously bonked by dehydration. This is the one and only time I have ever hallucinated. On the 8 mile return trip we started to get loopy at about mile 6. I fell into a very "sharp" bush at about mile 7 or 7.5 and did not feel any pain at all despite the fact that this bush almost left me with permanent scars. This was also very problematic because the "falling into bushes" occured VERY close to the edge of the canyon itself, but we (at the time) did not seem to care about nearly falling over the 300-500ft drop. These problems were reflected in the behavior of the entire group (I was not the only one to experience a lack of pain/conern). Lack of hydration left us with an impaired sense of judgement and an impaired ability to sense pain/danger.

I have also been trained as a Wilderness First Responder and can tell you that at least "extremely thirsty" people have such an incredibly deranged world view that definitions of "pain" get thrown right out the window.

Re:curiously opposite

TFA mentions that while minor dehydration exacerbates pain, extreme dehydration dulls it.

Re:Completely OT, but I was wondering the other da

For velcro-chest-hair-pockets