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Soviet Space Shuttle Found In Bahrain? 401
An anonymous reader writes "German news source Spiegel are reporting (english babelfish translation) that some TV journalists have found a seemingly abandoned Russian space shuttle in the Persian Gulf. It looks like it could be the atmospheric test demonstrator Buran OK-GLI which was in Sydney, Australia. Pictures here (external) and here (internal). Boy, what I would give to be able to sit in that seat and flip those switches!" Another reader, grm_wnr writes "German tabloid newspaper Bild reports that a russian Buran shuttle has been found in the Bahrain desert. Here is the story (in german, Google translation here). What's funny is that noone knows how it ended up there. At least the fate of one of the four Buran prototypes is now confirmed." There is not much confirmation on this, outside of a few pictures... let the reader beware.
Funny... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
I had also heard a NASA engineer respond a little later saying that if the Russians asked for the plans for the shuttle, that he doubted that NASA would have said no.
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
it is actually public record. i believe they got the plans in what would probably be considered espionage? but had they just filed a FOIA request they would have gotten it legally.
anyone remember the specific history?
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
It wouldn't be so bad if the Soviets had at least given it a different paint job, but from the outside it looks like a complete rip-off. I would be curious to learn just how different they are on the inside. People are claiming that it is original
Re:The shape is the same (Score:5, Informative)
The shape is the same, but not too much else.
The American (US and Canada) shuttle had integrated engines. Fuel fed from the big external tank into those engines during lift off. Buran was not designed with those engines. Buran was to use a modified Energia rocket to lift into space. This is a major design difference that does not show in the shots here.
This design by the soviets lowered the cost of developing their shuttle, and would give Buran more cargo space and load capacity. However the soviet design would need new engines for each launch. The American design reuses the engines for several launches.
The Soviets could have copied the general shape of the shuttle in order to implement a known working aerodynamic design. This is not the same thing the first poster is saying. They could have spent money developing a completely new working aerodynamic design, but chose to copy instead of innovate. The USSR wasn't exactly swimming in cash during this period, so I can see why they chose the cheaper route.
Re:The shape is the same (Score:4, Informative)
See Buran - In Depth History [astronautix.com] for more info.
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
1. The work was based in part on non-classified US shuttle information that was publicly available.
2. The US design was already tried, tested, and known to work. Why do something new when you can duplicate? The Soviets were very good at this; e.g. quickly copying the jet engines they were given during the 1950s, even going so far as to secretly collect metal shavings dropped on the floor by machining tools at the engine factory in England to find out what thte turbine
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
It looks like the US shuttle on the outside, but inside it is totally different. Interestingly enough, in many ways it is superior to the US space shuttle - for example if could do everything automated - including the landing.
including the landing. (Score:5, Informative)
Other than that, the shuttle can land automatically, too.
Re:including the landing. (Score:4, Informative)
The gear is lowered near the end of the flight, just before touchdown, far later than is done on other aircraft. If you have ever flown on a commercial or private plane, you will know that the aircraft slows down and begins to noticeably rumble when the gear goes down, due to the large amount of drag it creates. Minimizing the amount of time the gear is down maximizes the chance that the pilots can correct for any final-approach anomalies.
A gear door opening early might be a problem but not unrecoverable unless it opened far too early during descent, and a gear door that opened too late could cause a partial or total belly landing which could possibly (not definitely; it would depend on the situation) cause the unrecoverable loss of the orbiter. But the crew would probably survive, especially since they train for such ditchings.
Re:Funny... (Score:2, Funny)
Kinda weird since there was only one An-225 ever built... should be the An-225 I think.
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Informative)
For example, Gorky Park in Moscow managed to snag one of the test vehicles as an attraction. If you ever go there, you can walk through the shuttle and take a 3D ride.
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
This is true. The Russians has NASA's 10+ years of experience behind them when they were working on the Buran. As such, they avoided several points which made the shuttle such a difficult craft. A few items:
- The Buran had no launch engines. All lift power was provided by the Energia it was strapped to.
- The Buran had more advanced computers with real-time control abilities instead of the "key in the program" design of the shuttle.
- The Buran stack was lighter due to the single-booster design.
- The complexity lost in the single-booster design meant that turn-around times would have been far faster than the shuttle.
- Future versions of the design would have made the Energia booster able to fly back to Earth and be reused.
All of this did come at a price, however. IIRC, the Russian program was about twice as expensive in R&D as the US program. As for the aerodynamics, my understanding is that the Russians did have stolen shuttle specs as a reference. Even if they didn't, they still had a large collection of photographs from which they could divine the areo-shell design. As a result, the Buran was nearly an exact aerodynamic copy of the space shuttle.
And for anyone who thinks that may have been a coincidence, think again. There was no need for the Russians to have built a large cargo craft. They already had excellent cargo boosters, so they could have built a man rated vehicle for much less. They built the Buran to compete with the shuttle on every point, but did it in such a way as to show that Russian design was "better".
That being said, I'd love to see the Energia program revitalized. With those rockets, we could have cut the costs of ISS construction several fold!
Re:Funny... (Score:4, Informative)
Wow.
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Funny)
Then why do we get so upset when we catch them drinking?
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Insightful)
The worry came out of the American decision to put a Shuttle base in Vandenberg CA. Flights from Vandenberg would have entered a polar orbit taking them over the Soviet Union. It was an immensely provocative idea that was bound to attract the attentions of the Soviet military.
Th
Re:Funny... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Funny... (Score:4, Interesting)
All the things that fly require a great deal of design "inside" to work well with what "outside". Similarities in COncorde and Tu144 and in Buran and "classic" shuttle are caused by aerodynamics. Both machines had to perform in identical environments so no wonder they come out looking the same. Kind of mechanical darvinism at work.
The only exception I know of is the B-29. Soviets got hold of several shut down over Europe and replicated it bolt-by-bolt (Tu-4?).
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Interesting)
The OP's examples (F-15/MiG-29 and Shuttle/Buran) are pretty poor; they look similar only to one who is not familiar with them.
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Informative)
"the Pacific" - Not Europe
"airfield in Russia" - Also not Europe.
I actually knew about the B-29s that were downed, because it led to one of the more interesting aspects of the cold war in terms of the idea of scaling arms. Before the TU-4, there was no way for Russia to get to the US, and Russia was already reeling from the attack of a European superpower.
Regarding the reverse engineering, there was a story that Rolls Royce supplied a Merlin aero engine to Chi
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
It probably happened both ways, with certain states selling, no questions asked, technology to the Soviets. Remember too that we were a huge weapon supplier to Iran, and we supplied them with 'state of the art' weapons in the 70's including F-14s, F-15s and F-16s before the Islamic revolution.
Re:Funny... (Score:2, Insightful)
What I imagine happened is the Soviet engineering team was show
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
Re:Funny... (Score:4, Interesting)
Corrections welcome of course, but it's been 20 years & you'd have thought that someone would have turned up a picture if buran had really made it to orbit.
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Funny... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
Re:Funny... (Score:2)
for whatever stupid reasoning in the management part of things("the amerikans have one! make one for us too! i don't care if it doesn't make sense!").
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Funny)
Just to continue the funny discussions.
The size of the US Space Shuttle was actually determined by the limitations imposed by the Solid Rocket Boosters. --> The size of the SRB's was determined by the fact that the plant which made them was in Utah and there was a Rail Road tunnel in the way to the cape. --> The size of the tunnel was determined by the construction of the Transcontinental Rail Road in the 1860's and by the width of a Standard Gage Train Track. --> The width of a train track owes its history to the width of a standard mine cart or wagon from the old English days. --> The width of the wagon from old English days was determined by the width of the ruts in the old English roads from antiquity. --> The width of the ruts in old English roads was determined by the width of a Roman Chariot which by no coincidence was determined by the width of the two horses that pulled the chariots.
So the Roman Standards for War Chariots determined by the width of two horses rumps was a determining factor in the NASA and Russian Space Shuttles dimensions. The reason the Russion one was larger even by increments was it was intended to be bigger.
Warning to programmers. What you do today may have some considerable unforseen influence on the future. Thy not to limit them too much!
Re:Funny... (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Funny... (Score:5, Informative)
The boosters are made in Louisiana, and shipped by barge to Florida. No trains at all.
And the implicit stupidity of putting the SSME's in the Shuttle when there was no provision for engine restart, especially since that great fuel tank was already falling into the ocean. Yeah, the Soviets did it better in that regard.
As to tile technology, well that has matured some, but the fragility of the entire system is keeping NASA from any major overhauls in that regard. Had the Soviets actually continued with the program, they might just have built a flyback booster, aka, what the STS was supposed to be.
Ah, the perils of money...
Nie (Score:2, Funny)
Grain of Salt (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Grain of Salt (Score:5, Interesting)
(Sorry, only German)
The Location is Secret. The Shuttle is only "parked" there.
A German Museum has bought it and is waiting to ship it to Germany. The Museum has bought many things like this in the past (Tupolew TU-144, a Concord...)
Re:Grain of Salt (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Grain of Salt (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Grain of Salt (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Grain of Salt (Score:4, Funny)
Bahrain is a small island about ten miles wide and twenty miles long. It is long known as an important trading center in the Gulf where fundamentalists don't impose arbitrary social restrictions on international business.
The idea that a space shuttle could fall from the sky and land here undamaged as opposed to any point in the millions of square miles of ocean on the Earth's surface is absurd. Suppose the navigational on-board computer was damaged and it missed landing in the Soviet Union. It still would have gone into the ocean or broken up.
Maybe someone bought it under the table and then was told that it was going to be used to create an international incident, so they towed it out to the desert where it would be found and assumed that it had fallen from the sky.
Maybe some enterprising Russians sold it to someone with a lot of money (hmmm, anyone like that in Bahrain?) and convinced them that they could use it to begin an Islamic space program. Then they towed it out to the desert before anyone found out how gullible and backward they were (or how much money they got taken for).
Killing myself (Score:2)
Hahaha that was great, I laughed so hard I probably extended my life by a good few minutes!
Islamic space program
How did I get here? (Score:3, Funny)
Uhhh... it flew?
OK, not under its own power. But it had to be flown, right? So that's how.
Re:How did I get here? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:How did I get here? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:How did I get here? (Score:2)
The US shuttles are piggybacked on a specially outfitted 747. If I had to guess, customizing a 747 to carry the Buran would cost more than it's worth. And it's been 10 years since that thing was rated airworthy... I wouldn't want to pilot the 747 with a big pile of junk on the back which could disintegrate at any time and damage my own plane, or lose the lift of the shuttle's wings.
Since it's never going to fl
Re:How did I get here? (Score:2)
or it was just shipped there with a ship, it isnt THAT large.
Is this the one that overran the runway way back w (Score:5, Interesting)
Who? (Score:2, Funny)
Who is this Mr. noone you talk about?
Re:Who? (Score:2, Funny)
Parking (Score:5, Funny)
You ever tried to parallel park one of those things... trust me its easier just to park it in the desert.
This must be the fabled... (Score:3, Funny)
Space Camp (Score:2, Funny)
Trolls (Score:2, Funny)
the internal pic begs for captioning... (Score:4, Funny)
seriously (Score:2, Informative)
If they did actually abandon it out in the desert (which I find unbelievable, you think they would lock it up in a hanger or something), it's probably been completely gutted for the cool parts anyway.
Did this thing actually get used at all?
Re:seriously (Score:3, Funny)
If you look carefully at the photo, you can see that the wheels have been taken and that the shuttle is actually up on small piles of bricks.
Also the hood ornament's been torn off and the driver's side window smashed to take at the radio (which since a small shunt in the late 80s has been able to pick up AM anyway, so that's not too much of a loss).
Lost? (Score:3, Informative)
Stop press! (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Stop press! (Score:2, Funny)
Volker Hartmann (54) from Schaumburg
I preferred Google's "foam castle" translation of Schaumburg.
Re:Stop press! (Score:5, Informative)
If anyone find themselves in southwestern Germany, and is interested in this sort of thing, I would strongly recommend going to visit this museum. It was quite interesting even to someone like me. Even though I don't find cars interesting and aircraft only mildly interesting, I still enjoyed this museum. Seeing the full-size aircraft in person instead of in pictures is a worthwhile experience. The presence of the Buran shuttle would make it even better.
Sinsheim Museum (Score:2)
By the way, the Wikipedia has a page [wikipedia.org] about the museum in Sinsheim.
Buran history (Score:5, Interesting)
I was amazed to learn that Buran flew into space completely by remote control. Kudos to the Russians for this feat.
- Leo
It WASN'T remote control (Score:3, Informative)
In the mean time (Score:2, Informative)
It was stolen (Score:5, Funny)
Re:It was stolen (Score:3, Funny)
Not Noone again! (Score:3, Funny)
I went to school with Chuck Noone. He was always getting in these kinds of situations... I'll have to track that ol' devil down...
Broken down... (Score:2, Funny)
Nostalgia (Score:2)
How'd It Get There? (Score:5, Funny)
How can I? (Score:4, Funny)
The second half of the story (Score:5, Informative)
Ebay (Score:5, Funny)
1 slightly used space shuttle prototype.....
Likely a Structural Test Article (Score:5, Informative)
Our STA, STA-099, was retrofitted after it was clear that retrofitting the test Orbiter Enterprise would be too costly. So, STA-099 become OV-099, Challenger. There might have been much gnashing of teeth to have seen Enterprise destroyed on that cold January day in 1986 for some fanboys than Challenger, I would think--not to belittle that death of a vehicle or its crew would seem any more or less important based on its name.
Everything you want to know about the Buran program in Russian, amongst many other space information, can be found at this popular and comprehensive web site. [astronautix.com]
What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:3, Interesting)
Of course, there's no way to prove that one way or the other but it does illustrate the fact that the soviets didn't have the "burden" of a free press to publicize when things went really haywire as this shuttle seems to have.
Re:What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:2, Interesting)
This would be a significant change to our established history of space exploration.
Re:What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:3, Interesting)
Even if it were true, the Soviets would have kept it under wraps. NASA underwent a lot of public crap whenever something blew up on the launching pad. In Soviet Russia all they had to do was tell Pravda to shut up and their space program looked flawless. If it never got out of Russia, how would we find out about it?
Re:What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:3, Interesting)
Leonov is very frank in talking about the censorship that occurred during this period and has no reason to perpetuate any lies.
Re:What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:3, Interesting)
Because all the proofs are burried deep in the archives of the KGB.
However, the Russian media wrote about this [pravda.ru] (in English)
Re:What the Russians didn't publicize (Score:3, Informative)
Cover up (Score:2)
Anyone up for a trip to Wyoming?
Re:Cover up (Score:3, Funny)
Buran in Sydney (Score:5, Interesting)
The Buran in Sydney lacked the navigation avionics, leaving a rather large empty space in the deck below the cockpit. The Russians removed that before they exported the shuttle. The guide claimed the avionics were heavily borrowed from Russian ICBMs and had even included targeting data for U.S. sites.
It's sad that Buran failed as a tourist attraction.
Will be shown at the Technik Museum at Sinsheim (Score:5, Informative)
The Technik Museum Sinsheim [museum-sinsheim.de] already has a Concorde, the Tupolev TU144 (soviet counterpart of the Concorde), and a Porsche 959, "The blue Flame" and a lot of others tech stuff.
The shuttle will be kept in good company
oh my god. (Score:5, Funny)
yeah, then you could go watch spongebob in your footie-pajamas, and drink hi-c from your sippie-cup!
actually, that sounds kind of fun.
Next week's National Enquirer (Score:2)
Check out "the supermagnifying glass" (Score:4, Informative)
Now you can see all those small details Nasa doesnt want you to know about. Geez, this must be the lamest incarnation of digital zoom I ever saw. But then again, Bild is germanies most unreliable newssource anyway so I have to wonder why it was linked to on
Its a Typo (Score:2)
Let me solve this mystery for you (Score:2)
Russian space program = strapped for cash
Bahrain oil sheik = using treasury notes for kleenex
Russian space program: "Who wants to buy a shuttle prototype? Some assembly required."
Bahrain oil sheik: "That would make a cool water pipe!"
Far fetched (Score:2)
Manual translation of Spiegel article (Score:5, Informative)
Soviet space shuttle: Curious discovery at the persian gulf
While shooting footage for the formula 1 race in Bahrain, a TV crew from Düsseldorf by chance stumbled over a rumour about a russian space shuttle, said to be located since some time in that region, without anybody taking an interest in it. A little while later, the Germans were standing in front of a relic of the soviet space shuttle program of the eighties: A vehicle strongly resembling the US shuttles. It may be a prototype version of the space shuttle "Buran" ("Snowstorm".
With this shuttle project, at times employing up to 30'000 people, the soviets wanted to catch up with the americans in manned space flight. But the project was not under a good sign. Already at its inception in the late seventies it was clear that the Soviet union actually had no use for a re-usable space craft. "Buran", the name of the sole soviet shuttle ever to make it into space, was a pure prestige project - and an extremely expensive one at that.
November 15 1988, after more than ten years of development, Buran took off for the first and last orbital flight, without crew. This flight ended according to plan after two orbits of the earth. One year later, the iron curtain came down - and with it, the major part of funding for soviet space exploration.
[CAPTION]: TV producer Maier in the cockpit of the shuttle: Relic from the soviet union
While the "Buran" shuttle was able to carry more payload than US shuttles and could be controlled remotely, neither its on-board computer nor its life support system ever worked satisfactory. The space ship was decomissioned, and was destroyed in May 2002, when the ceiling of a hangar in the Baikonur space center crashed. A second shuttle named "Ptitchka" ("Little bird"), which was completed in 1990, was never used: The program was stopped officially in 1993.
Besides the two soviet shuttles that were ready to fly, there were said to be three more, unfinished, shuttles, and a series of test versions. Today, one is being used as a restaurant in Moscow, another was sold by Russia to Sydney as an exhibition piece for the 2000 olympic games. "Ptitchka" is said to be in Baikonur still.
It is not clear which model was found at the persian gulf by the TV crew from Düsseldorf. Nobody knows, how this museum piece ended up there. According to TV producer Chris Maier, this could be the model once located in Sydney. This notion is supported by the fact that the shuttle supposedly performed 25 atmospheric test flights. Various reports claim that the Russians delivered the aerodynamic test plane "Buran OK-GLI" to Australia, which was used to test the automatic landing system of the space shuttles. For this reason, the shuttle was the only test variant equipped with engines.
"We need to get confirmation on which version this is", concedes Maier. However, the shuttle has already attracted a potential buyer: According to Volker Hartmann, a member of the TV crew, German enterpreneur Kai Niedermeier, who is doing business in the gulf states, wants to do a world tour with the space shuttle - and auction parts of its hull on the internet.
Summary of the cockpit dialogue that day (Score:5, Funny)
Slava: Zutroy, what is red light?
Zutroy: Red light is bad.
Slava: Was it last vector?
Zutroy: Last vector, yes. Last vector is bad.
Slava: Light is bad, vector is bad, what is good?
Zutroy: Chance of hit desert is good.
Slava: Pass the Stolchinaya.
Zutroy: Yes, Stochinaya also good.
Location of the Buran's (Score:3, Informative)
One is under a pile of rubble [bbc.co.uk]
One has been sold to the Germans.
And one is still missing.
Re:But... (Score:3, Funny)
WTF...? (Score:3, Funny)
This is exactly what happened when americans elected Bush to be president... blah blah...
That's some baaaaad-ass acid you've been hittin' dude. I'm curious though...what are your thoughts on the Apollo missions?
Re:Looks like it's made of Legos. (Score:3, Funny)