'Brain Pacemakers' Being Tested 352
meshmar writes "Shades of 'The Terminal Man'? Rob Stein of The Washington Post has reported, via MSNBC, that: 'A handful of scientists around the world have begun cautiously experimenting with devices implanted in patients' bodies to deliver precisely targeted electrical stimulation to the brain in hopes of treating otherwise hopeless behavioral, neurological and psychiatric disorders.' A lot of good can come out of this - potentially. But I can see a the potential for misuse too."
nah, probably not. (Score:5, Insightful)
According to the novel a man with "psychomotor epilepsy" was severely hurting/killing people w/no memories of the events. He was implanted with some sort of device that shocked areas of his brain and stopped the seizures before they happened. The doctors chose an area of the brain that was the pleasure center. The brain began CAUSING seizures to get the shocks.
So, as long as they don't put the shocks into the pleasure centers this should work out! Sci-fi for the masses!
Note: I am only basing this on the book. IANANS (neurosurgeon).
Re:nah, probably not. (Score:5, Funny)
Re:nah, probably not. (Score:5, Funny)
Buy a Microsoft product, get a BSOD (Blue Schock Of Death)!
Re:nah, probably not. (Score:5, Funny)
You're under the mistaken assumption that people have an orgasm every time they're screwed
Re:nah, probably not. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:nah, probably not. (Score:5, Funny)
I think the concern is that people would do precisely that. After all, it happened on both Futurama *and* the Simpsons, so naturally it's of grave concern to the Slashdot editors.
Re:nah, probably not. (Score:5, Insightful)
Nevertheless, the research arouses fears of reviving the reckless use of brain surgery, about the wisdom of poking around in what some consider the font of a person's humanity, about oversimplifying mental illness as a purely biological problem, and the temptation to move too quickly to try out new technologies.
and then I read this
A lot of good can come out of this - potentially. But I can see a the potential for misuse too.
My question is this: what technology has been created in the past that COULD NOT have potentially been misused? Sure, you invented a pencil... a whole lot of good could come from this--but some dejected office worker could jam it in someone's ear too...
This technology has the potential to be fantastic. Sure, a crazy mad scientist somewhere could definitely mess someone up pretty bad with this stuff--but how many medical procedures are already performed now where the doctor Doesn't have to power to seriously mess the patient up?
I support this technology... Yeah, sure... Doctor's may be able to kill someone with it... but they also may just run someone over on the sidewalk driving home. And before anyone starts ranting about thousands of armies full of pacemaker brain-people... cut me a break. (although it would probably make a pretty cool book) There's too many things that are not directly related to science for that to happen... so the argument isnt' exactly with the science but with the implementation of it... There are more holes... also, but they're not on-topic to this discussion....
Give science a break... this stuff could save lives and help out a lot of people.
Clockwork Orange comes to life (Score:5, Interesting)
weirder news comes to mind... (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Clockwork Orange comes to life (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Clockwork Orange comes to life (Score:5, Insightful)
I know just who to test this on (Score:3, Funny)
online reservation NOW. I mean *NOW*. (Score:2, Funny)
Battle Field Earth (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Battle Field Earth (Score:2)
And the writers for both had the same implants, but for the writing instead of the acting.
Re:Battle Field Earth (Score:2)
no good. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:no good. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:no good. (Score:5, Informative)
I wouldn't like to see ECT or probes in the brain used as a first resort for someone who'd been depressed for a couple of weeks, as a little help can go a LONG way in many people.
The shocks used in ECT are quite controlled, with muscle relaxants to minimise any muscular contraction that goes along with the shock. It works for some reason, and that reason isn't exactly known. Personally I don't give a shit why it works or how, or even if it wipes 20 years from my life. Chronic treatment resistant depression has laid waste to the last 20 years of my life, doing nothing isn't going to make the next 20 any better.
Re:no good. (Score:3, Informative)
Typically, a person has a few treatments within a few days. The mechanism of its action is mysterious. It works very well for some people, though. The most likely adverse effect is amnesia, especially for events surrounding the therapy. The recovery from depression can be very fast compared to medications.
rTMS vs. ECT (Score:3, Interesting)
rTMS seems to have cured the depression that I had going on for the last 10 years (I'm 22). I'd tried nearly every kind of antidepressant, with no good/lasting results, and was ready to off myself, as I didn't consider ECT an option due to the risk of memory loss and/or brain damage. I was the one to mention rTMS to my last shrink (learned about it online, Wired mig
Re:no good. But No Choice (Score:3, Informative)
Given the history of ECT it was a very scary thing for me to consent to, but if it w
Re:no good. (Score:2, Funny)
It did help me uncover an unknown vocal talent though...
Harrison Bergeron Anyone (Score:2, Interesting)
http://penguinppc.org/~hollis/personal/bergeron
A good thing (Score:2, Funny)
"3M We don't make your brain. We make it better."
BASF... (Score:3, Informative)
Just now, I realise that nobody is likely to care, but I answered the question already, so I'm posting the answer anyway.
V-Chip? (Score:5, Funny)
Cartman: Doggy.
Dr. Vosknocker: [to audience] Notice, that nothing happens. [to Cartman] Now, say "montana".
Cartman: Montana.
Dr. Vosknocker: Good. Now, "pillow".
Cartman: Pillow.
Dr. Vosknocker: Alright. Now I want you to say "horse f*cker".
Mrs. Cartman: Go on, honey. It's alright.
Cartman: Horse fu-- [gets shocked by the V-chip] That hurts, god damn it!
[gets shocked again]
Dr. Vosknocker: Now I want you to say "big floppy donkey dick".
Cartman: No!
Dr. Vosknocker: [to audience] Success! The child doesn't want to swear!
Cartman: This isn't fair, you sons of bi--
[gets shocked repeatedly]
Put Down That Twinkie! (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, I think that would suppress my appetite...
Are we losing something in all of this (Score:3, Insightful)
It's long been know that genius is "in bed" with madness.
Some of these "mad" people probably aren't mad at all.. they're just rather odd but that oddity gives can give them brilliant insight!
Simon.
All we have to lose is our urban myths (Score:3, Interesting)
No, it has NOT "long been known" that genius is in bed with madness. IQ has never significantly correleated with any mental disorders.
However, mental illness DOES correleate well with poverty.
And any correleation between mental illness and creativity is clearly and demostratably false. These illnesses are most often a serious disability to people with otherwise normal intelligence and creativity. To suggest to these people that it's some sort of
Re:All we have to lose is our urban myths (Score:5, Interesting)
I think you need to have a word with the authors of published studies linking creativity and mental illness [google.com], because psych researchers at multiple universities disagree with your declaration.
A substantial and disproportionate number of world-famous writers and artists suffered from cyclothymia [google.com], if not full-blown manic-depression.Re:All we have to lose is our urban myths (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:All we have to lose is our urban myths (Score:3, Insightful)
Whoa, slow down. You are not making sense. First, IQ *does* correlate with certain mental illnesses -- negatively. For example people with a Down's syndrome have very low IQ.
However that's neither here, nor there. We are talking about *geniuses* -- the far right tail of the I
Southpark... (Score:2)
everytime he cursed? I wonder how long, given human nature, something like
this is used for evil purposes. I don't mean to cast a shadow over what could
be a very worthy achivement, but it behooves us to properly consider the
possible...adverse reprocussions.
SealBeater
Re:Southpark... (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Southpark... (Score:2)
SealBeater
No No No, they can't put one in MEEEE!!! (Score:2, Funny)
Re:No No No, they can't put one in MEEEE!!! (Score:2)
strangely related... (Score:4, Insightful)
DARPA researchers are also at work on the "Brain Machine Interface" ("neuromics") project, designed as a mind/machine interface, allowing mechanical devices to be controlled via thought-power. Thus far, researchers have taught a monkey to move a computer mouse and a telerobotic arm simply by thinking about it. With arrays of up to 96 electrodes implanted in their brains, the animals are able to reach for food with a robotic arm. Researchers even transmitted the signals over the internet, allowing remote control of an robotic arm 600 miles away. In the future they hope to develop a "non-invasive interface" for human use. Says DARPA, "The long-term Defense implications of finding ways to turn thoughts into acts, if it can be developed, are enormous: imagine U.S. warfighters that only need use the power of their thoughts to do things at great distances." For years, the U.S. military has been improving its ability to reach out and kill someone. What's the mantra of the future? Maybe, if you think it, they will die. Wild weapons of DARPA [politrix.org]
ha! (Score:5, Funny)
Re:ha! (Score:2)
Damn, what the hell is that black helicopter doing hovering above my hou*(&H#R~(*#Q
NO CARRIER
Interesting (Score:2, Funny)
Zzzzzt! (Score:2)
Yeah, they should watch the resistor values in that thing very very carefully.
Dance Mailman! (Score:2, Funny)
zzzzzap!
"brain attack" (Score:2)
Why do I... (Score:2, Funny)
...get this urge to build a large electromagnet and aim at the head of someone with this implant? Just for the 'scientific value' off course *evil smile*
Re:Why do I... (Score:2)
noozflash! (Score:5, Insightful)
Gee. Ya think?
Can we once and for all just declare that ANYTHING can be misued and be done with it? It's not exactly secret Jedi lore.
Re:noozflash! (Score:5, Insightful)
A fork can kill a person.
A bomb can kill a person.
Don't you think that such concerns are more warranted when someone builds a new kind of bomb than when they build a new kind of fork?
This is a great little device that obviously has abuse written all over it. Even the good guys look at this and cringe. Such devices might look good on paper (or in a controlled lab) but I sure as hell don't want them anywhere else.
Yeah, but... (Score:3, Funny)
A fork can kill a person.
A bomb can kill a person.
eating with a bomb is such a pain. Except with the Claymore mines: they have a nice curved spoon-like shape.
PS Don't take that 'potato-masher' grenade thing literally.
Re:noozflash! (Score:2)
That's my point (Score:2)
Now if someone wants to suggest a particular and likely abuse for discussion, fine.
Re:noozflash! (Score:2)
Re:noozflash! (Score:2)
Re:noozflash! (Score:2)
There are degrees of misuse. Yes, a hammer can be used to build a nuclear weapon (well, not really, but you get the idea).
But this technique on the other hand practically invites misuse. Psycotherapy has moved from being a field that was primarily oriented around counseling to a field first-and-foremost about medication. To that particular fox, the hen-house we now present is a tool for electrically modifying mood or stimulus response.
This
Boom (Score:2)
Actually, used carefully, a hammer could possibly set off a nuclear weapon. :-)
I don't think it's out of line to point out the potential for abuse.
Eh... it just seems so -5 Redundant right off the bat unless the person goes on to suggest a particular type of abuse.
Re:Boom (Score:2)
Heroin, crack, ain't got nuthin' (Score:2, Insightful)
Indeed! (Score:5, Funny)
Technology (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a huge fan of new technology and was wondering when someone would start to broach this area. I've read several pages of different universities [cornell.edu] that were playing with this including my favorite Caltech [caltech.edu]. This is great as it's a step away from just having the patient hardwired into a computer system.
Re:Technology (Score:2)
Now pass me the happy pills please.
There are FOUR LIGHTS!!!! (Score:3, Funny)
Quick diagnosis... (Score:2, Funny)
Tres cool ! (Score:2)
Terminal man? How about Harrison Bergeron? (Score:5, Interesting)
Some things about living still weren't quite right, though. April for instance, still drove people crazy by not being springtime. And it was in that clammy month that the H-G men took George and Hazel Bergeron's fourteen-year-old son, Harrison, away.
It was tragic, all right, but George and Hazel couldn't think about it very hard. Hazel had a perfectly average intelligence, which meant she couldn't think about anything except in short bursts. And George, while his intelligence was way above normal, had a little mental handicap radio in his ear. He was required by law to wear it at all times. It was tuned to a government transmitter. Every twenty seconds or so, the transmitter would send out some sharp noise to keep people like George from taking unfair advantage of their brains.
Potential for misuse? (Score:3, Insightful)
Epileptic Stimulator (Score:4, Interesting)
Misuse? (Score:3, Insightful)
Come on, do you really think that? How many deaths from intentional frying of heart pacemakers have there been?
Re:Misuse? (Score:2, Interesting)
*Zap* (Score:5, Funny)
I mean they're fantastic.
Some hopeless disorders they are trying to fix... (Score:2)
Desire to check email "one last time" before bed
neurological
Thinking of the internet as a living entity with rights of its own, or less drastically as existing in a different legal space than 'the big blue box'
and psychiatric disorders"
Software is imbued with a desire to be free.
-Adam
How ironic (Score:2, Funny)
It's pretty ironic that the editor is paranoid about a procedure to cure paranoia.
Where can I get one? (Score:2)
upgrades? (Score:2)
-
The brain in my head? (Score:2)
Specialist: No, no, I am not the brain specialist. No, no, I am not... Yes. Yes I am.
Practical Applications (Score:2)
Finally a device which will stop me falling asleep during those boring meetings
Article Repost? (Score:2)
Anyone know how far we may be from... (Score:5, Interesting)
Being able to "back up" a mind would definetly be one of those day-the-universe-changed moments. If death could mean more a loss of short-term memory since last backup, rather than loss of known existence, almost every aspect of our culture would be shaken to its core. Any number of results could be imagined.
Even if not in ROM-style form, some form of human-as-information seems innevitable. From emulation, to virtual-life recreation, to any number of things, the human experience may not be limited to DNA & brains forever. What that means for the presumed entities behind our eyes, we do not know. But perhaps that expansion of information is part of whatever human nature is.
Ryan Fenton
Re:Anyone know how far we may be from... (Score:3, Informative)
You MUST read Cory Doctorow's
Down & Out in the Magic Kingdom
It talks about backing up brains and the effect it has on a human society.
http://craphound.com/down/download.php
It's free, too!
Great story!
Re:Anyone know how far we may be from... (Score:3, Insightful)
simplest case scenario -- you need to trace every axon, find every dendrite it interfaces with, and measure the strength of the synapse, and take down the type of neurotransmitter(s) and receptor(s) used -- there are generally several configurations of receptor for each neurotransmitter, and there are at least a dozen identified neurotransmitters.
As you mentioned, measuring synaptic strength will modify the synapse. And of course there's currentl
Hardware Mods. (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe I could get one (Score:3, Funny)
btw, what is up with the mini-flag at the top of the page?
It works. (Score:5, Informative)
wow (Score:2, Interesting)
Seriously, though, I can't imagine there *not* being some sort of long-term damage from piping too much non-biogenerated electricity through some sub-section of the brains neural net.
Of course, our medical establishment is giving extremely powerful central nervous system stimulants to our youth, so we know *they* don't care.
Bonus points if you get both Gibson quotes.
Peace & Blessings,
bmac
Bring on... (Score:2)
Can you? (Score:3, Funny)
OUCH! Dammit! Stop that!
Sort of Clockwork Orangesque, eh?
Microwave Ovens In Use (Score:2)
But with a brain pacemaker, does this mean that someone can blow away everyone in say, a Best Buy store or convenience store and say "THEM WIRES IN ME HAID MADE ME DO IT!!"
??
i know this sounds kinda off the deep end, but fwiw, i can attest that subwoofers (or any deep bass source such as thumpin' car stereos) *do* resonate in my skull and make be both nauseous and VERY irritable, such as instantly furious about min
Overclock! (Score:4, Funny)
-psy
Delgado (Score:3, Interesting)
One of his most well-known umm... party tricks involved him getting into a bull-fighting arena with a bull. The bull had an electrode implanted in its brain, and Delgado had a wireless transmitter in his hands. The bull charged, Delgado pressed a button, and the bull came to a screeching halt.
I worry about this stuff. (Score:3, Insightful)
Abuse of these things must be impossible, not just legally but technically, before I could ever bring myself to accept them as anything but a dehumanizing abomination.
History of Lobotomy (Score:5, Informative)
The article briefly mentioned the dark history of psychosurgery. A few interesting details were omitted however.
The most popular kind of psychosurgery ever done was the prefontal lobotomy. This technique had something of a heyday in the 1940s.
The gentleman who invented the lobotomy (Freeman) lacked any surgical training. He would perform the procedure on an outpatient basis; he drove around the countryside in his "loboto-mobile" (quite seriously) and performed thousands of the operations himself.
His method of lobotomizing involved jamming an icepick through the eye socket with a hammer, until the icepick was deeply recessed within the brain. Then he would wiggle the icepick around vigorously. (I'm not making this up). The entire procedure took less than 5 minutes. A hospital visit was unnecessary.
Freeman went around the country demonstrating the procedure in mental hospitals etc. The technique fell out of favor in the 1950s, when it was learned that lobotomies had no therapeutic value whatsoever, and often had severe and permanent side-effects.
Re:History of Lobotomy (Score:4, Informative)
I didn't belive you until I read this [everything2.com].
The procedure even had experienced neurosergeons fainting...
Radical procedures on poorly understood organs (Score:5, Funny)
Based on all this we figure Jim in maintenance can insert some electrical probes into the "chips" and send in little shocks with just the right voltage to stop Microsoft Word from crashing so much. Plus we think it might really help our Quake 3 framerates.
We think this could be better than the best idea we've had so far, having computer therapists sit with them and press different keys to try to recreate past successes we've had by trial and error. It couldn't be worse than our previous attempts, which involved just putting unruly computers in the closet until they got better on their own, or administering electric shocks to the outside of the case, or (my favorite) just taking the sucker down to the shop and really giving it a good whack on the drill press.
Somebody call Discover Magazine.
The Original Clockwork Orange (Score:3, Informative)
I managed to get a copy of the book finally, and discovered wonderful passages such as the following on page 115:
This passage is eerily reminiscent of a passage from Richard Dawkins' "The Extended Phenotype [amazon.com]" chapter titled "Host Phenotypes of Parasite Genes":
I wouldn't worry, I make these....... (Score:5, Informative)
Deep Brain Stimulation... (Score:3, Interesting)
-They're effective as all hell
-They work best for movement disorders, such as Parkinsons, as well as Chronic pain
-The surgury itself is pretty drastic; you have to literally drill holes in people's heads... And the patient has to be consious. Numbed up, but consious.
-There are some side effects if it isn't done properly.
Some of her cases include one guy who had the electrode too deep, which caused a deep depression as it was stimulating too much area. They moved it a notch up, and the depression faded instantly. Another case included a cop that would have to leave his job if he kept on having this chronic pain that kept him from working, but he is not back on the job and loving it.
One thing she we have talked about is that it would be interesting to use them for psychiatric disorders, but with doctors perscribing ritalin and prozak at the drop of a hat, it's not a good thing to suddenly have holes drilled into kids heads.
Also, I asked about replacing ECT with Deep brain stimulation for depression, but apparently ECT is much cheaper. Pity.
Still, this is a LONG way away from stuff like the Matrix and Ghost in a Shell. Currently it just controls overactive areas of the brain that cause neurological diseases, nothing more, nothing less. Don't get your hopes up quite yet.
Rant On (Score:3, Interesting)
Second, it is trivial at best to foresee abuses. The trick is in recognizing the over-reaching fact that the abuses never have anything to do with the technology involved. Those who will abuse will do so whether they have an electrical stimulator or just the rubber hammer used to test your reflexes (corrective phrenology, anyone?). These people don't even need technology to do this; they will do it gladly with no technology at all. Focusing on the abuses the technology may be put to takes the focus away from the people who will do such things, allowing them to get on with their business.
Third, there are a lot of people out there who need something, and society in general dictates that there be someone to take care of them. Hopefully, trained specialists who can help them, but also the sad fact is because most people don't want to have to deal with it. They insist on, and are glad to have, someone fulfill the role required so they don't have to, including having to have the people with problems around them. Unfortunately these people also tend to feel guilty when they see others suffering, and rather than appreciate the fact that someone else is doing the best they can, they get upset because that person is not doing a better job. Sooner or later the people doing the helping get blamed for not being better than they are, ie. they're not perfect.
Believe it or not, lobotomy was a god send. It still can help many people. People decry electroshock therapy, but the fact is for a lot of people, it's their only hope of a normal life. People got upset that many mental patients were stuck in hospitals with no hope of improvement and so insisted that we let them out; now those same people are no better or worse than they were, but the are far better off, since many of them are the chronic homeless (you won't give them housing, but you won't let us keep them warm and fed).
If you want to help, aren't of the bent to help develop the tools and techniques to help people like I do, then at least keep your eye out for the kinds of people that will abuse, and get rid of them. They cause us who have to try to help people far more problems than they do others. They give us a bad name and make people suspect us. Root those people out and do something about them. Or else shut the hell up and stop repeating the painfully obvious paternalistic mantra "they might do bad things!". It's helping nothing and it's annoying.
Rant not off. I'm not done. Not until I stop trying to develop new ways to help people, and that'll probably happen when I die or need that kind of help myself. And it won't end then because I'll train every student of mine along the way to fight this same fight. You want us to do this. You NEED us to this this. Help us do this by focusing on finding abusers and getting rid of them, so we can get on with the role that society demands exist, and we have chosen to fulfill.
Re:Didn't Crichton write a book about this? (Score:2)
BWAH-Hah-hah! Re:Tin Foil (Score:4, Funny)
While this channel is open:
Attention!
Attention all implantees!
You will now believe that smearing cottage cheese into your hair will prevent the CIA from putting voices in your heads! Report to the nearest dumpster and root around for cartons of expired cottage cheese.
Implantees with last names beginning with a letter from A to Z should STOP taking their medication.
Implantees with last names beginning with secret alphabet letters should continue not taking their medication.
That is all.
Stefan "Mental illness is a serious thing and nothing to make fun of except by insenstive jerks" Jones
Re:Who needs implants? (Score:3, Funny)