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New Clues About the Nature of Dark Energy
Posted by
michael
on Mon Feb 23, 2004 08:38 AM
from the spaced-out dept.
from the spaced-out dept.
Jim Mansfield writes "With the Hubble space telescope no longer being serviced by NASA, it's good to see one of their hardest working and most famous satellites in the news again. According to their press release on the nature of dark energy, Einstein may have been right after all - and even if he turns out to have been wrong, it seems that dark energy is not going 'to cause an end to the universe any time soon' ... whew, that's a relief." See also a space.com story.
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New Clues About the Nature of Dark Energy
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I wouldn't worry (Score:5, Funny)
(http://www.astroreverb.com/)
Ok, so maybe there is reason to worry....
Re:I wouldn't worry (Score:4, Funny)
May I just be the first (Score:1, Funny)
(http://www.div-arena.com/ | Last Journal: Friday February 18 2005, @08:55AM)
The Sith Lord awaits.
The restaurant at the end of the universe (Score:4, Funny)
(http://www.blogstheme.com/)
The restaurant at the end of the universe must be really far...
Racists! (Score:2, Funny)
(http://www.blogstheme.com/)
...End of time? (Score:5, Interesting)
(http://nharmon.multics.org/)
This is quite a shift from the implosion theory that results in pre-'Big Bang' conditions causing a loop in time.
Re:...End of time? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:...End of time? (Score:5, Informative)
Well, if you've done any General Relativity you'll know that for a standard cosmology (FLRW cosmology), the final state is one of recollapse, asymptotic expansion, or accelerating expansion. This end state depends on the total mass-energy content of the universe and the nature of the dark energy (cosmological constant). It really isn't a lack of understanding of "basic calculus", but rather a deeper understanding of the physics involved. So, basically, we don't need to know all the derivatives -- we just need to have an understanding of the potential in which our universe evolves.
Re:...End of time? (Score:5, Informative)
Of course they understand basic calculus. They just also understand the currently prevailing model for the constitution of the universe and its evolution. To have the accelerating expansion stop accelerating, decelerate, or turn over would require some additional, extremely bizarre physics that's not indicated by any observation or experiment we presently have. This may seem like an odd constraint for me to place when we're talking about something as bizarre as "dark energy", but it isn't. There were a lot of theoretical reasons from both cosmology and elementary particle physics (and even a few vague extragalactic observational reasons) to at least consider that the cosmological constant may be nonzero; that's why the two high-z supernova teams did their work. And now there's still harder data suggesting same. In contrast, there's just no reason whatsoever to presume unbelievably bizarre physics of the form necessary to produce the behavior to which you appeal. The scale-factor dependence of the currently-known components of the Universe don't have the higher-order derivative behavior you appeal to; while coming up with a hypothetical field that does is pretty damned hard. That doesn't mean you're wrong, of course; it just means the odds are very highly against you. The claims they're making are almost certainly true.
Re:...End of time? (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://slashdot.org/)
You always wonder whether astrophysicists understand basic calculus?
I'm doing my best to come up with something witty or intelligent to say to that, but I'm having trouble coming up with anything more than "What...? Huh?"
Considering that modern physics is largely just a whole hell of a lot of math, yes, I think it's safe to say that astrophysicists understand the principles of calculus. Have you even seen a modern physics paper?
Big Rip a Big improbability (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~siegel | Last Journal: Tuesday May 11 2004, @06:04PM)
That's one depressed satelite! (Score:2, Funny)
(http://vanrees.org/)
Well, it's his own fault now, giving us back such negative waves [the-ocean.com].
Reinout
Never underestimate the power of the schwartz! (Score:3, Funny)
"Now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb!"
- Dark Helmet
The future of the Unvierse (Score:4, Interesting)
As dark matter destabalizes, essentially matter is pulled apart at the atomic level. Some thing tells me The Big Rip, is what we are in for.
The universal constant is a nice theory and would be the better, happily-ever-after option, but in reality it seems a little far fetched if the expansion of the Universe is accelerating. It means that eventually speed will over come matter and every thing disintegrate and get ripped apart.
Big Rip != Acceleration (Score:5, Informative)
Relief? (Score:5, Interesting)
Before it gets to that stage, stars will become a rare occurance. The chain of star birth and death results in smaller stars, and once stars get small enough they become like our Sun -- too small to undergo the explosive death that would provide enough mass for future stars. Eventually there won't be enough clouds of hydrogen massive enough to start nuclear fusion.
Given enough time, current theories suggest that the universe seems to be screwed either way.
Re:Relief? (Score:5, Interesting)
Another person downthread alludes to the idea of surviving through increasing entropy by presumably using decreasing amounts of energy. In other words, as the universe gets older and colder, there will be, say, 1/100th the free energy available utilizable by a heat pump. So a form of alife could simply run itself 100 times more slowly and thereby experience time subjectively at a linear rate. Right? Wrong. Two problems pop up. One is proton decay, which means the building blocks of any sentient computer will eventually decay on their own. And second is the cosmic background radiation. Machines work on the principle of taking in energy and outputting it in the form of waste heat. But once the universe has cooled down to the same temperature as the CBR, it will be impossible for any machine to output waste heat. It will cease to function. There is some work being done on reversible computing [mit.edu] which might, in the long run, be able to tackle the second problem, but not the first.
Re:Relief? (Score:5, Informative)
non-physical physics (Score:5, Interesting)
(Last Journal: Friday April 27 2007, @02:20PM)
Of course, 2x (near-as-dammit-zero-certainty) is pretty much the same as (near-as-dammit-zero-certainty)...
A lot of new physics does seem to be increasingly theoretical and "out there" on the proverbial limb. It would be good for the practical lot to catch up with the theoretical lot... unfortunately, trying to verify these out-there hypotheses seems to involve larger and larger atom-smashing accelerators. Lets just hope they don't need to find the 'Higgs Boson' (hint: ohhh WAAAY ohhh, ummm barrray
Simon
Re:non-physical physics (Score:4, Insightful)
(http://dexter.0x90.org/)
All new physics is out on the proverbial limb. Galileo's ideas were so outrageous at the time that the church had him outcast from society (IIRC).
It doesn't take that much of an open mind to consider these new (or old) theories based on new facts. But, I'm glad the majority don't follow such theories, because most people tend not to leave things in the grey ("THIS theory is RIGHT") otherwise, actual scientific progress would be severely hindered, as people would become quite disheartened, and possibly ANGRY at science.
The border between "Practical" and "Theoretical" isn't very black-and-white either. Often theoretical sceince leads to very practical applications (as in the case of forward error correction, originally just mathematics) and practical turns out quite sour (as in the Wankel(?) engine).
Just my 2c
Re:non-physical physics (Score:4, Informative)
Great man.
Dark Matter and Ether (Score:3, Insightful)
(http://topjaklont.student.utwente.nl/)
I think dark matter doesn't exist. It can be useful in the models, like ether could, but nothing more than that.
Re:Dark Matter and Ether (Score:5, Interesting)
and in very complex systems Newton can't be used (chaos)
Hang on a moment; I thought the Lorenz attractor (which is the canonical example of chaos) was based on a system obeying Newtonian mechanics.
Why would it be so strange if systems with enormous scales and very small accelarations would not obey Newton's laws?
This is the line of thinking which led Mordechai Milgrom to propose Modified Newtonian Dynamics (MOND) in the 1980s. MOND posits that Newtons second law (F=ma) is modified when the acceleration is very small. It is able to "explain" the unusual rotation curves of galaxies, without the need to invoke dark matter. It can also explain phenomena which the dark matter hypothesis can't, such as the Tully-Fisher relationship observed in the surface brightness of galaxies.
However, its important to remember that MOND cannot be considered a physical theory; it is more of an empirical modification of known physical laws (like the Lorentz transformation was), which still awaits a physical explaination.
Re:Dark Matter and Ether (Score:4, Informative)
(http://www.personal.psu.edu/~psa104/)
The Tully-Fisher relation has been explained by dark matter for some time. You can find a brief derivation in Carroll & Ostlie p. 1002, for instance. There's no need to invoke MOND at all - it just comes from the fact that the luminosity is proportional to the maximum velocity to the 4th power, which you can get by using the expression for total mass contained within the galaxy derived from rotational velocity curves.
Re:Dark Matter and Ether (Score:5, Informative)
(http://www.personal.psu.edu/~psa104/)
Yes and no: The typical Tully-Fisher coefficients for Sa, Sb, and Sc type galaxies are 9.95, 10.2, and 11.0 or so. These are all within 10%, and for Sa and Sb types, within 5%, of 10. Simple assumptions get you a coefficient of 10, if you assume that the mass-to-light ratio is the same for all spirals, and that the surface brightness is the same for all spirals.
The first assumption (mass-to-light ratio) is a clearly idiotic assumption. It assumes that galaxies form with same proportions of light and dark matter, which we *know* is not true for other types of galaxies (dwarf ellipticals, in particular). Aside: This is also the "nail in MOND's coffin", more or less - MOND was hoping to replace the dark matter hypothesis by saying physics works differently at large distances. The problem is that galaxies which contain the same amount of light-emitting matter and have the same spatial extent should therefore have the same rotation curves. This isn't true. You then have to add a new parameter with MOND to fit it, which is OK, sure, but now you've started to lose the elegance originally intended, and now MOND becomes a more complicated theory than the dark matter hypothesis, which just says "well, that galaxy formed around less dark matter."
Anyway, back to the subject: the point is that those two assumptions clearly are not completely true, and therefore there's plenty of room for a 10% correction due to forming biases in spiral galaxy types. If the mass-to-light ratio is a very weak function of mass (which is believable - perhaps smaller galaxies formed when the dark matter density was slightly lower, due to their late formation times), you can easily get those corrections.
MOND allows you to get that 10% correction due to the parametric fit of the rotation curve, which is essentially identical to the way that it's done in the dark matter case - the corrections are due to the variation in the rotation curve, which MOND says is due to a modified Newtonian field, and dark matter says is due to a dark matter density. It's the same reasoning - one isn't more natural than the other.
(It should also be noted that the Tully-Fisher data has a crapload of spread to it, just like all astronomical data. Each galaxy varies a fair amount.)
Re:Dark Matter and Ether (Score:5, Informative)
(http://slashdot.org/ | Last Journal: Wednesday October 31 2001, @05:34PM)
IANA astronomer, but that's what I've understood from the stuff that I've read about it. Pop science ofcourse because the math is way over my head.
There's more to dark matter... (Score:4, Informative)
Correct me if I'm wrong (Score:1, Informative)
(http://www.mindchild.net/ | Last Journal: Tuesday November 29 2005, @10:16AM)
While this may be a completely seperate idea, it definitely appears that the author is mixing these two (Dark Energy and Ether) Einstein theories.
Re:Correct me if I'm wrong (Score:5, Informative)
The article you must read (Score:2, Funny)
I'd buy that for a dollar!
Everything's nonsense (Score:1, Funny)
Well, back to my OSS/FS projects to gain fame in this dark world
Dark Matter? My god... (Score:1, Funny)
Dark Matter conclusively identified... (Score:1, Funny)
Einstein was wrong anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
(http://folk.uio.no/kjetikj/ | Last Journal: Thursday October 28 2004, @05:00PM)
Re:Einstein was wrong anyway (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Einstein was wrong anyway (Score:4, Interesting)
(http://www.noirchickenstudios.com/)
Dumb Science isn't "right after all," no matter how much you respect the guy who came up with it.
Re: Einstein was wrong anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
> This whole "Eistein was right after all" angle is misinformed. He wanted a static universe because that was the historic conception of the universe. His own science didn't allow for it, but he wrangled an equation for one out of it anyway.
Remember that at the time Einstein introduced it (1917, if a Web search didn't lead me astray) scientists still thought "the universe" and "the galaxy" were the same thing. We tend to forget how vastly our understanding of the universe has changed in the past ~80 years.
Duh! (Score:4, Funny)
Are you Corn Fed? [ebay.com]
No info... (Score:3, Funny)
At the end it states, "Understanding dark energy and determining the universe's ultimate fate will require further observations." Well great. Didn't we know this already? *sheesh!* Thanks for "almost" nothing....
No, really? (Score:4, Funny)
(http://www.thehumblest.net/)
"Riess' team uses Hubble to find stars that exploded when the universe was about half its present age. A certain type of these supernovas, as they are called, shine with a known brightness."
Supernovas, you say? Wow, what a fascinating new concept for readers of Space.com!
I mean, come on!
Dark energy (Score:1, Redundant)
Filling the blank? (Score:3, Funny)
(http://javierisassi.googlepages.com/cabazorro | Last Journal: Tuesday August 10 2004, @04:22PM)
a gap but with what???
Observer: Look at those galaxies..they are moving appart.
Braniac: Yes, that's because the big-bang long long time ago.
Observer: They look very old and they appear to move slower as they drift compared to the young galaxies.
Braniac: Of course, they are loosing momentum. But don't be deceived, at some point all universe is going to loose cohesion and become rippi-bits!
Observer: Howbout that cluster over-there? Those galaxies are quite old and they are driftin faster than the young ones! What gives??
Branica: Er ur..is dark energy pushing them appart, dark energy is spreading the galaxies.
Observer: And the big bang.
Braniac: yes, that too
present dark-energy.
Observer: Far out!
Braniac:(scratching her head and punching madly
at her calculator and giving a big sight of
frustration)yeah, riveting.
They were wrong ?? (Score:1)
This can't be, coz' even Red Dwarf had an episode about that [nildram.co.uk]!
http://www.ebtx.com/ntx/ntx16.htm (Score:5, Informative)
I suggest reading www.ebtx.com on the nature of dark energy. This guy is right, or at least close.
Matter attracts matter; this we know. The rest of the theory explains that space attracts space, and matter repels space. Matter and space are polar opposites (as well as logical opposites).
Einstein wasn't relative enough in his theories. He declares C as constant and bases all other observations off it, when in fact you can change all the physical constants continuously and arrive at the same results. If C changed, as long as h, G, and about 18 other 'constants' also changed, we couldn't tell, from our point of view.
Is the universe expanding, or are we all shrinking? From a relative point of view there is no difference.
A more detailed article on the same: (Score:3, Informative)
(http://gnufans.net/)
"the repulsive force" (Score:2)
The main problem with Dark Energy... (Score:3, Informative)
Many formulas and theories are based on observations, however, a good theory not only describes current observations, but predicts things which are not observed, yet. Like Einstein's theory predicted time-dilation, the curvature of space-time, etc. and gave a solution to the orbit of Mercur (which Newton's theory was unable to explain).
A new theory may be needed to include the Dark Enegy from its foundations or to explain these phenomenas without Dark Energy.
A "Circular" argument? (Score:2, Interesting)
big rip? (Score:1)
*phew* (Score:1)
(or if u live in california, any company that sells power; duke, reliant, etc.)
and in the computing world; SCO at the moment though history shows that it'll return to microsoft as soon as SCO goes under (it's not a matter of if but a matter of when).
This Einstein was right stuff (Score:2)
(http://www.alcyone.com/xihr/)
It's true that it's looking more and more like we live in a Universe with a nonzero cosmological constant. But that doesn't mean Einstein was right. Einstein introduced a nonzero cosmological constant for a very specific reason: to make a static universe. He lived at a time when the general metaphysical assumption was that the Universe was static and unchanging and had been around forever and always would be. So when he created his field equations and discovered that they insisted that, with a reasonable model, a universe must expand or contract, he introduced a cosmological constant with the intent of negating that expansion or contraction, resulting in a static, unchanging universe. (Specifically, he thought the universe was closed -- this is one of his boundary assumptions in general relativity -- but static.)
Now it turns out that we seem to live in a universe which is not only, to most cosmologists' surprise, open, but also with a nonzero cosmological constant that is accelerating that expansion. The entity -- the cosmological constant -- which Einstein introduced would appear to have some use (though in fact we already knew that, since inflation theory, a pretty solid part of our Standard Model, involves an effective cosmological constant), but not for the reasons he introduced it (that is, our universe is emphatically not static and the cosmological constant does not help it become so). In theoretical physics, you don't get bonus points for getting the right answer for the wrong reasons.
In fact, in many ways, theoretically the cosmological constant is a bad theoretical feature, because it indicates a tweakable parameter that you need to find observationally -- hence, the desire to find the theoretical basis for the value of the cosmological constant.
Quick summary (Score:2)
This comes as a great shock to exactly no one.
[TMB]
Questioning dark energy (Score:1)
Asimov (Score:2, Insightful)
(Last Journal: Friday September 24 2004, @07:11PM)
If you take a red ball, and throw it up in the air, you will observe it come back down. You can repeat the experiment with the same results. You can use a different red ball. Eventually you may adopt the theory that red balls when thrown up must come back down. You may eventually expand that theory to include blue balls, and then green balls, and then any ball. That would lead to further experimentation and the conclusion that "what goes up, must come down."
Later on though, you may let go of the helium balloon that you were holding. Helium balloons do come back down once they've gone flat, but you may need to modify your theory to say "what goes up, must come down, but not necessarily right away." Airplanes do this too. But what if something reaches escape velocity.
"What goes up, must come down, but not necessarily right away, and only if it doesn't reach escape velocity."
As our knowledge and data base grows, our theories expand or get thrown out in favor of something that better fits our observations. But they are just that: our observations. If a model doesn't fit an observation, don't blame the model, or the observation, or the scientist. Such will only be modified again as our understanding grows.