Making Change 1129
Roland Piquepaille writes "There are mostly four kinds of coins in circulation in the U.S: 1 cent, 5 cents, 10 cents, and 25 cents. But is it the most efficient way to give back change? This Science News article says that a computer scientist has found an answer. "For the current four-denomination system, [Jeffrey Shallit of the University of Waterloo] found that, on average, a change-maker must return 4.70 coins with every transaction. He discovered two sets of four denominations that minimize the transaction cost. The combination of 1 cent, 5 cents, 18 cents, and 25 cents requires only 3.89 coins in change per transaction, as does the combination of 1 cent, 5 cents, 18 cents, and 29 cents." He also found that change could be done more efficiently in Canada with the introduction of an 83-cent coin and in Europe with the addition of a 1.33- or 1.37-Euro coin. Check this column for more details and references." The paper (postscript) is online.
I hate math... (Score:5, Funny)
Swannie
Re:I hate math... (Score:3, Insightful)
For the pure maths side of it it's pretty neat, all the same - just not completely useful when it comes to Real World Stuff
Re:I hate math... (Score:5, Insightful)
The logic for determining change is really easy for a cashier. start with the largest coin and work your way down until it all adds up.
Re:I hate math... (Score:3, Informative)
I can't think of an example where that doesn't work in a 1,5,10,25 system, but it is definitely not a valid rule in general. For example in a 1,40,41 system you can give 80 cents change with two coins, but your method would use fourty coins.
-
Re:I hate math... (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't you think that the current denomination systems are designed specifically so that the greedy change-making algorithm will work?
The poster you were replying to seemed aware of that; They were merely saying that since the current denominational system has this property, it is easy to use. The problem with adding 32- and/or 18-cent coins is that the greedy approach may no longer make the most optimal change.
Re:I hate math... (Score:3, Informative)
The reason you can't think of any examples in the 1,5,10,25 system is because 10 and 25 are both multiples of five. Therefore whatever you could make with a 25, you could also make with five 5s. So if you would ever have five 5s or two 5s, just use a 25 or a 10, respectively. In 1,40,41 system, 41 is not a multiple of 40 (or vice versa), so it makes finding the optimal number of coins a bit more difficult, since you have to find the
Re:I hate math... (Score:5, Insightful)
And as many people have mentioned, the current system is probably the best because of the ease of addition/subtraction. An 18-cent coin would be a nightmare for most minimum-wage cashiers. The only problem with our current monetary system is that inflation has made pennies freakin worthless.
OT: was- Re:I hate math... (Score:3, Funny)
Meet my penny-filled sock, my friend! And the sock is stinky, too!
(Gimme a break, it's noon on Friday and I'm bored outta my mind...)-
Re:I hate math... (Score:5, Funny)
Except for this penny [yahoo.com]
Besides a good roll of pennies and a sock are good for those times you have to dish out some street therapy.
Re:I hate math... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I hate math... (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, ... (Score:3, Insightful)
So your argument is moot: The cashier does actually have to use math to give you back your change.
Pet peeve (Score:5, Insightful)
Math != Arithmetic
I just hate it when people say... "Oh, you're a mathematician! Can you add up these numbers for me?"
I suck at addition. Give me a theorem to prove!
Re:Pet peeve (Score:4, Funny)
OK, prove that adding 2,381,240 to 128,037 is the same thing as adding 128,037 to 2,381,240.
Oh, and what is 20% of $12.96? I gotta tip the waitress here.
Re:Pet peeve (Score:3, Funny)
Pls. prove. Thanks.
Statistics was always a weak area for me... (Score:5, Insightful)
The paper assumes all amounts in 0..99 are equally likely in making change. Is this a fair assumption? Wouldn't there be patterns in the amount of change returned based on varying "psychologically appealing" decimal retailer pricing schemes, local sales tax percentages, the average total price of a transaction, etc? Wouldn't the optimal selection of coins in making change therefore be influenced by the peaks and troughs of this change function?
I agree (Score:5, Informative)
Re:$0.99? (Score:5, Informative)
The origins of the pricing structure used date back to when the first cash registers were invented, that could print receipts for the company's own records (this was before the policy of giving a customer a receipt as well had been adopted). By using this sort of pricing, it was anticipated that the customer would probably be expecting change, and so the person operating the till would have to enter the transaction into the cash register in order to get the till drawer to open to collect the change. With a record of the transaction stored on a roll of paper inside the machine, the person operating the register could not simply pocket the money without being caught by the owner when the till contents was counted. By having the large, easily read numerals on the pop-up tabs on the register in plain view of the customer, a customer with nothing more than basic ciphering skills could easily and independantly calculate whether or not they would be getting back the correct amount of change, and could often be trusted to complain quite loudly if the person using the till did not give them back what they expected.
18-cent is really a red herring - 2-cent works too (Score:5, Informative)
The article also assumes a uniform distribution of change between 1 and 99 - not likely, given how things work.
Re:I hate math... (Score:5, Funny)
But I'll give him this much... He'd save us 0.81 of a coin each time we got change!
(I don't want 81% of a coin!!! It wouldn't roll or spin so well after you cut it!!!)
Re:I hate math... (Score:3, Insightful)
A poor family, in a foreign country, that sends their child out to work selling stuff on the corner would do poorly on an IQ. They'd lack the skills you get from going to school necessary to actually take an IQ test. You learn basic things, like pattern matching and some minor analytical skills.
Take that child, and ask that child who has to properly make change daily, and does it, could do math quiet well. Easily better
Re:I hate math... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I hate math... (Score:3, Interesting)
I'd probably still go with 3 dimes and a penny, cause I can do that in my
Re:I hate math... (Score:4, Funny)
> copy/pasting those coin values
You forgot option three, you didn't read the article.
Re:I hate math... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I hate math... (Score:5, Funny)
Pirates (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Pirates (Score:5, Informative)
And now you know.
Re:Pirates (Score:3, Informative)
Re:I hate math... (Score:5, Interesting)
Usually, the customer does not have exact change to pay the $x.99 (or can't be bothered to look for pennies) and it would force the cashier to open the cash machine to give change. Upon doing this, the sale is registered and the owner will know if you pocketed the money.
Yeah Right... (Score:5, Funny)
Have you ever gotten a bill for dinner for say $12.50 and you give the cashier $15 saying the tip is included?
You would think 15.00 - 12.50 is doable right?
HELL NO! The cashier pulls out a calculator to do the math so she can write it in for the waiter's tips!!!
If people can't add things like this 18cent coins are out of the question.
Although I would like to hear a cashier go,
"That makes $0.88 change sir." Pick out two quarters then,
Re:Yeah Right... (Score:5, Funny)
Wanting to minimize some of the change in my pocket, I gave the clerk $2.00 in bills and 12 cents.
The clerk tried to hand it back, saying "it's only $1.87"
I said, "yes, but this way, I'll get a quarter back in change."
He took the money, punched it into the cash register, and as he handed me back the quarter, he said "How did you know that?"
It's funny (in a VERY sad way) that to him, the cash register was this magic oracle that told him what to do, and that it didn't occur to him that what he was doing was even knowable without its use.
Re:Yeah Right... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's funny (in a VERY sad way) that to him, the cash register was this magic oracle that told him what to do, and that it didn't occur to him that what he was doing was even knowable without its use.
I am a High School math teacher, and I can't agree with this statement enough. Somedays I laugh, somedays I cry, but it is always sad when I see a student need the calculator for the most BASIC of operations (And I am not even counting the OP's example as "basic", that would be "basic+")
I think it all comes from the fact that students are allowed to use calculators at such an earlier point in thier schooling. I am only 29, but I was not allowed to use a calculator in school until somewhere around 11th grade. It really hones (sp?) those basic math skills. I'll step off my soap-box now Sorry ;-}
Re:Yeah Right... (Score:5, Insightful)
The thing that struck me about this guy was that it wasn't even that he couldn't do the math in his head
Two funny (sad) arithmetic stories (Score:4, Funny)
A few years after that, my sister (in 5th grade at the time) had a test with a miscalculated grade, and when my mom went in for a parent-teacher conference, she brought it up. In particular, she said she'd added up the number correct and divided by the total number of questions, and got a different percentage... the teacher looked down her nose at my mom and said, "that's *not* how it's calculated." How was it calculated? Well, you have these cardboard discs that you turn according to the total number of questions, and then you read the grade out of the little window corresponding to the number right.... This woman had only the vaguest notion that this grade was a percentage correct, and *no idea at all* that---as a percentage---it could also be calculated by dividing the numbers out. None.
Re:Yeah Right... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Yeah Right... (Score:3, Insightful)
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D'oh! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:D'oh! (Score:5, Funny)
Is it too early in the morning or does this article not make sense? I have never seen an 18 cent piece in circulation n the US...
I'm waiting to see if Taco screws it up in the dup tomorrow, too...
MDC
Re:D'oh! (Score:4, Funny)
18 cent coins? 4.70 coins per transaction? Give me a break. I was a geek growing up and even *I* feel like smacking this guy.
18 cent coin?? (Score:5, Funny)
Instead... (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not round prices to dimes ? Or even quarters ?
Re:Instead... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Instead... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Instead... (Score:4, Insightful)
I suppose they could just print out signs with an average price, and take a hit in certain areas, and make a much larger profit margin in others. It might balance out in some areas, but possibly not in others. And if you are a consumer in one of those higher profit margin areas, then you are getting screwed as well. It would work, but I don't think anyone would be too terribly happy with it
Re:Instead... (Score:3, Insightful)
Who are you kidding? Of COURSE they're fooling someone. It's a proven fact that a given good will sell more units at $9.99 than at $10.00. YOU may not think you're being affected, but the truth it is works. Retailers price their goods at a level that will maximise sales.
Re:Instead... (Score:5, Insightful)
5?! -Interesting +Utter Crap (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Instead... (Score:3, Interesting)
Consider the following typical purchase:
Re:Instead... (Score:3, Interesting)
Give it up, you will never ever see logical pricing that doesn't require loose change.
$19.99 may not fool you or me, but subliminally many people perceive it quite differently from $20. It begins with a "1". "In the teens" seems easier to justify psychologically than $20 for
Re:Instead... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Instead... (Score:5, Informative)
For cash transactions:
1 & 2 cents -- rounded DOWN to the nearest 10 cents
3 & 4 cents -- rounded UP to the nearest 5 cents
6 & 7 cents -- rounded DOWN to the nearest 5 cents
8 & 9 cents -- rounded UP to the nearest 10 cents
Rounding is on the total value of the bill. Individual items should never be rounded.
And where a consumer pays by cheque, credit card or EFTPOS (electronic transaction) there is no need to round at all.
So basically you win some and you lose some, but it evens out in the end. If you're really diligent, yes you can use it to your advantage, but most people have a life instead.
Re:Instead... (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Instead... (Score:4, Informative)
Its not up to the store, but the law. You must show the PST and GST on every sale in Canada. There was some debate a couple years ago about changing it to hidden costs, but that seems to have been quelled with recent wars and weed laws.
Re:Instead... (Score:3, Interesting)
In the netherlands (and most, if not all, of europe), consumer prices must always be advertised including VAT. This includes pricetags in the store itself and commercials on TV and such. It is illegal to advertise prices without VAT to consumers.
Consumers never have to deal with prices without VAT included. The price isn't even mentionned anywhere.
Because VAT is tax deductable when you buy a product for commercial use, you can get a receipt which shows how many VAT you have paid.
It actually never occured
Re:Instead...Japan, the land of confusion (Score:4, Insightful)
Life gets more complicated when coming originally from Germany, where VAT is always included in the advertized price (for end-users, not for businesses) and going to Japan, where 5% tax is mostly added. About 90% of all times I need to add 5% at the cashier. In the other cases I don't need to. Now that makes calculation the price to pay complicated.
Just get rid of the pennies (Score:5, Informative)
The ticket price still reflects
.08,
.03,
It averages out over time, especially when you buy more than one item.
Re:Instead... (Score:3, Interesting)
Why not round prices to dimes ? Or even quarters ?
Because retailers use the fractional part to encode information. Did anybody here ever work at a Target? (or perhaps a wal-mart, etc?) Do you still remember what a price ending in ".97" means?
Actually, i think it started to help prevent (Score:4, Insightful)
If the price is 1.00$, the person working the regster can just take the buck, or five, or whatever, and slide it into their pocket. If its
Re:Instead... (Score:4, Funny)
The quarter is hard enough (Score:5, Funny)
Re:The quarter is hard enough (Score:4, Funny)
And I like math.:P
Re:The quarter is hard enough (Score:5, Funny)
Am I retarded? (Score:5, Funny)
Uhhh...did anyone else have to use a calculator or pencil for this one and go, "Oh, I get it. Those idiot cashiers."?
...snicker...
Re:No, you're not retarded (Score:3, Funny)
I don't do it for any of those reasons. I mostly do it because I'm lazy and don't want to carry around 5 pounds worth of pennies. Oh, yeah, I also want the only jangling sound when I walk to be from my big brass ones.
Re:No, you're not retarded (Score:3, Funny)
I don't think those Sacagaweas "ones" are really brass - they just look it.
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
Yeah, right... (Score:5, Funny)
Then, you get on a train in Boston traveling east at 300 MPH. In 30 minutes, will you really care about how many 18-cent coins you're carrying?
Science v. Common Sense (Score:5, Interesting)
Me, I'm on the side of science.
More to transactions than number of coins. (Score:4, Insightful)
You give them a 29 cent piece and see how fast things get.
I'm willing to bet that most of the "coin cost" or whatever you want to call it comes from pennies, anyway -- if the dollar amounts are random, every 5 transactions are going to involve (0 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = ) 10 pennies, or 2 pennies per transaction. Rounding prices to the nickel would be simpler, easier, and more efficient.
typical Computer Science logic (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh, that'll work well (Score:4, Interesting)
How the hell can we expect these people to handle 18 cent pieces when they can't even figure out what 25% of 20 is?
Or, even better ... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Or, even better ... (Score:4, Informative)
Minimize coins in pocket (Score:4, Interesting)
If something costs 77c I give them 1.02 - and get a quarter back. In the US, the tellers stare at me blankly, but then dutifylly enter the amount I give them - and then smile in amazement at the simplicity of the exchange.
In Japan, it is almost the other way around. The tellers come up with the most creative combinations that minimize my number of coins (and maximize theirs - this is in both of our interest).
Tor
Re:Minimize coins in pocket (Score:3, Informative)
Just as a note here, its probably not in their best interest to get back as many coins as possible.
I used to admin at a bank, and you are charged for "coin." This means the more you bring in which is unsorted, the more you are charged.
Of course, if they roll their coin then this is not a problem.
However, it would cost them more if they try to maximize their c
This is why Human Interface Design is important (Score:3, Insightful)
- Some egghead thinks "optimal" means "fewest coins returned in change, on average."
- He recommends introducing 18 and 83 cent coins.
- The people who actually use coins laugh at this idiocy.
Sheesh, "optimal" coinage denominations are those that make using coins easiest. That means quick mental calculations of change, manipulating them with your fingers, and passing them back and forth.The ivory tower academics are certainly earning their reputation for foolishness.
Re:This is why Human Interface Design is important (Score:4, Informative)
No no no. Academia don't have to think about definitions. We just define it that way.
Be seriously, RTFA, people. The important part of this result is not that 18 or 83 cent recommendations. The author did it in jest in reference to the phrase "What this country needs is a good five cent cigar". (cited in the footnote of the paper). Just wait for
The important part of this paper is the second half, the general analysis of methods for finding "optimal" denominations or "optimal" change returns (the first defined to minimize the number of coins returned on average, the second defined as given a set denomination, finding the best way to represent a given amount). It gives asymtotic results. It is more of a computer science excercise then anything else.
W
Re:This is why Human Interface Design is important (Score:5, Insightful)
Assuming that each amount of change between 0 and 499 cents is equally likely, Shallit's calculations show that the average cost of making change would fall from 5.90 to 4.58 coins per transaction with the addition of an 83-cent coin.
That's a pretty big assumption, isn't it? I'd assume that amounts of change would cluster around certain values. That was one thing that caught my interest, so I went to look at the article to find out how they evaluated that effect. Answer: apparently they didn't.
To be fair, it's quite possible -- even probable -- that the original article was a light-hearted, tongue-in-cheek sort of piece, and that the author has been horrified to see it turned into a serious suggestion about actually changing the denominations of coins.
In fact, the more I think about it, the more likely this seems. From TMI's site: "The Mathematical Intelligencer encourages authors to write in a relaxed, expository style and to include pictures and other graphics with articles. Opinion, mathematics, and historical comments can (and often should) be intermingled to make lively reading. Humor and controversy are welcome." So it was probably just a goofy abstract problem, written for entertainment value, not "serious" research. So I take it all back: let's give the guy a break, smile quietly, and move on.
Non-decimal systems have advantages (Score:4, Interesting)
Second, what is easy is what comes with practice. Currencies, like most other measurement systems, were not originally decimal, but duodecimal (i.e. using base 12) and various multiples thereof. Right up to the 1970s, the UK used a currency system which had 12 pennies to a shilling and 20 shillings to a pound. The US and UK still use duodecimal for weights and measures (think pounds and feet) and the whole world uses it for time (12/24 hour systems) and angles (360 degrees is 30 times 12).
Why were systems based on numbers like 6, 12, 24, 360 etc. so common, given that we tend to count in decimal? Well, they have large numbers of factors. In other words, while they might be harder to add and subtract in your head than decimal systems, they're much easier to do division with. And since division is much harder to do in mental arithmetic than addition, that's a big advantage.
For example, with 12 ounces in a pound, I can take a half, a third, a quarter, a sixth or a twelth of a pound and still be dealing in whole ounces. With a decimal system, 10 has only 2 factors: 2 and 5. So to buy a quarter of something devised in a decimal system you end up with 2.5.
Now that also has a knock-on effect when making change. Because of the limited factorisation of 10, most decimal systems divide things into 100s or 1000s.
Result: in a decimal currency, you end up not with 10 cents per dollar, but with 100 cents. And that's the real reason you have so much change in your pocket. If we had 12 cents to the dollar (or euro), then by copying the old british system -- with a 1c, 2c, 3c and 6c coin -- you'd never need more than 4 coins to make change from a shilling.
And would the cashier at WalMart be able to handle it? Well first off, maybe if as a result they had to think more as kids they'd be better off at maths to start with. And secondly, since they have to use a calculator now anyway, what would be the difference?
18, it's a magic number. (Score:5, Funny)
*taps foot*
Eighteen is a magic number.
Yes it is, it's a magic number.
Somewhere in the ancient, mystic eighteenity
You get eighteen as a magic number.
The past and the present and the future,
Faith and hope and charity,
The heart and the brain and the body
Give you eighteen.
That's a magic number.
18, 36, 54 . .
72, 90, 108 . .
126, 144, 162 . .
180.
Preposterous (Score:5, Funny)
This approach simplifies all transactions to one-coin change. Some people might argue that this is just too many coins to keep track of, but since no one keeps track of their change anyway, it wouldn't matter. It's easier to use the new change to pay as well: Instead of $0.67 being 2 quarters, a dime, a nickel, and 2 pennies, it can be paid in one coin. Or, you could use a 50-cent and a 17-cent piece. Or two 27s and a 13! The possibilities are endlessly easy!
Some people say that it's a problem to differentiate the 99 different coins (95 new coins) by sight. There's a simple answer to this -- each coin would have a number of sides based on its amount. A 4-cent coin is a square, an 8-cent is an octogon, and so forth. So, remember, don't give them three quarters -- just reach into your pocket, feel for the coin with 75 sides, and hand it over.
Oh, and if you can't tell a 99-sided coin from a 97-sided coin by sight, perhaps you should stick to smaller denominations.
The new two-cent coins are easy to lose, so be careful.
Re:Preposterous (Score:5, Funny)
I believe he was joking about having 99 different coins. An ideal solution would be to have 100 different coins, and include a zero or "null" coin. Therefore the protocol for every transaction could expect a coin.
why did we ... (Score:5, Interesting)
easy, look
Measures of length
After 1959, the U.S. and the British inch were defined identically for scientific work and were identical in commercial usage (however, the U.S. retained the slightly different survey inch for specialized surveying purposes). A similar situation existed for the U.S. and the British mass unit pound, and many relationships, such as 12 inches = 1 foot, 3 feet = 1 yard, and 1760 yards = 1 international mile, were the same in both countries; but there were some very important differences.
Measures of volume
In the first place, the U.S. customary bushel and the U.S. gallon, and their subdivisions differed from the corresponding British Imperial units. Also the British ton is 2240 pounds, whereas the ton generally used in the United States is the short ton of 2000 pounds. The American colonists adopted the English wine gallon of 231 cubic inches. The English of that period used this wine gallon and they also had another gallon, the ale gallon of 282 cubic inches. In 1824, the British abandoned these two gallons when they adopted the British Imperial gallon, which they defined as the volume of 10 pounds of water, at a temperature of 62F, which, by calculation, is equivalent to 277.42 cubic inches. At the same time, they redefined the bushel as 8 gallons.
In the customary British system the units of dry measure are the same as those of liquid measure. In the United States these two are not the same, the gallon and its subdivisions are used in the measurement of liquids; the bushel, with its subdivisions, is used in the measurement of certain dry commodities. The U.S. gallon is divided into four liquid quarts and the U.S. bushel into 32 dry quarts. All the units of capacity or volume mentioned thus far are larger in the customary British system than in the U.S. system. But the British fluid ounce is smaller than the U.S. fluid ounce, because the British quart is divided into 40 fluid ounces whereas the U.S. quart is divided into 32 fluid ounces.
From this we see that in the customary British system an avoirdupois ounce of water at 62F has a volume of one fluid ounce, because 10 pounds is equivalent to 160 avoirdupois ounces, and 1 gallon is equivalent to 4 quarts, or 160 fluid ounces. This convenient relation does not exist in the U.S. system because a U.S. gallon of water at 62F weighs about 8 1/3 pounds, or 133 1/3 avoirdupois ounces, and the U.S. gallon is equivalent to 4 x 32, or 128 fluid ounces.
1 U.S. fluid ounce = 1.041 British fluid ounces
1 British fluid ounce = 0.961 U.S. fluid ounce
1 U.S. gallon = 0.833 British Imperial gallon
1 British Imperial gallon = 1.201 U.S. gallons
Measures of weight and mass
Among other differences between the customary British and the United States measurement systems, we should note that they abolished the use of the troy pound in England January 6, 1879, they retained only the troy ounce and its subdivisions, whereas the troy pound is still legal in the United States, although it is not now greatly used. We can mention again the common use, for body weight, in England of the stone of 14 pounds, this being a unit now unused in the United States, although its influence was shown in the practice until World War II of selling flour by the barrel of 196 pounds (14 stone). In the apothecary system of liquid measure the British add a unit, the fluid scruple, equal to one third of a fluid drachm (spelled dram in the United States) between their minim and their fluid drachm.
In Great Britain, the yard, the avoirdupois pound, the troy pound, and the apothecaries pound are identical with the units of the same names used in the United States. The tables of British linear measure, troy mass, and apothecaries mass are the same as the corresponding United States tables, except for the British spelling "drachm" in the table of apothecaries mass. The table of British avoirdupois mass is the same as the United States table up to 1
Get rid of 1c pieces! (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, people will bitch and moan for about 6 months, but then noone would ever consider going back.
All you need to do is 2/3 round at the till. It's great!
It's one better... (Score:5, Funny)
You know, if we mint 1 coin for every amount of change (like a 57 cent coin, a 58 cent one, etc.) then it will only take 1 coin per transaction. Of course then we have to worry about having 99 different coins, making them distinguishable from each other, etc.
The current United States system of currency works just fine. Denominations of 1, 5, 10, 25 are easy enough to calculate and efficient enough for all intensive purposes. Sure this proposed new system may be 17% "more efficient" for a computer but real people need to use the system also.
Some things are best off just left alone...
Count by 18. Ready? Go! (Score:3, Funny)
<voice style="school house rock">
18...36...54...72...90....108
STOP
Multiply by 18 is like multiplying by 20 but subtracting multiples of 2. So 18*3 is really like 20*3 - 2*3. That's just 60 - 6, or 54! Let's do it again!
18...36...54...72...90...108...126...144...162.. .180!
Ready or not, here I come!
</voice>
no, I didn't use a calculator. I sure hope the math is right.
Once Again... (Score:3, Interesting)
I believe that what the researcher failed to take into account is the way that the human mind works. Adding 1's, 5's, 10's and 25's is definately easier than adding 1.37's or 83's for us.
Sure, it may make the handing out of change more efficient by lowering the average amount of change given from 4.x to 3.x coins, but that efficiency will be more than lost when the clerks at the local mini-mart -- who already have problems giving out the correct change -- have to figure out that my $0.72 in change will be two 29-cent coins, two 5-cent coins and four 1-cent coins.
Not to mention the increasing size of cash drawer shortages caused by less-than-mathematically-inclined clerks.
Is it just me, or does it seem that the less "rounded" education becomes, the more one-dimensional "solutions" appear? Guess it is more true than ever: when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
A "Scientist" wrote this!?!?!?!? (Score:5, Insightful)
The US does not need another coin. Indeed, the *opposite* is true. If you get rid of the penny, you can increase efficiency tremendously, to only 2.75 coins per transaction, and a whopping 45% of transactions would require 2 or fewer coins!
Many people oppose the elimination of the penny, but bear with me for a moment. Consider the following issues:
- Pennies cannot be used in vending machines, and therefore are not as "spendable" as all the other coins.
- Prices will not rise as people think they will; they will fall instead! Everything that is priced at $n.99 will now be $n.95 instead (marketers HATE to price in round dollars because it makes their prices look higher). All other numbers will be rounded to the nearest $n.n5.
- The US government makes 12 billion pennies at a cost of $100 million each year (http://www.retirethepenny.org/), which could be put to better use than filling up my coin jar.
- Half of these pennies will disappear from circulation within a year! (http://www.shepherd-express.com/shepherd/19/41/n
- Counting out pennies costs the economy an estimated $20 billion in productivity annually (http://www.retirethepenny.org/)
- The U.S. Mint loses $8 million a year manufacturing pennies. (http://www.shepherd-express.com/shepherd/19/41/n
Think about it - do you *really* want another coin in your pocket? Thank God that politicians don't listen to us all the time!
-Mark
Simpler Solution: Get Rid of the Penny (Score:3, Interesting)
* Counting in 5's, 10s, and 25's is a lot easier.
* Saving pennies, rolling them up, going to the bank, and then driving home is a pain-in-the-ass, and honestly isn't worth my time, e.g. 2 hours of work to get $10 of pennies?!?!?. It's more economical to throw the friggen ugly coins in the trash, but I can't do that out of principle.
GET RID OF THE PENNY!
Don't get me started (Score:5, Insightful)
It doesn't matter what the denomination is. As long as change has to be made, some patrons will receive the wrong change.
Lots of cashiers don't know how to make change. Many have been trained to do it wrong. The most common error is the cashier puts the large bill the customer just handed them into the drawer before giving the customer change and watching them count it. There used to be a little slot between the plastic guard and the metal cash register enclosure that was perfect for temporarily storing that large bill in customer sight. When the customer looks at you after counting his money, pause to see whether he questions it, then put the large bill in the drawer and close it.
Adding this momentary delay before putting the customer's large bill in the drawer and closing it, protects the cashier and the customer from being short changed.
I've seen managers put large bills in the drawer before I counted my change. One gave me change for $10 instead of change for a $20. I'm a creature of habit. When I hand a cashier a large bill, I always say, "outta twenty" or whatever the bill is. I'm sure I did that with this one. But she'd already put the bill in the drawer and insisted upon a recount of the drawer and by the time she did, my food was cold. That is not the way to do things. When I pointed out her mistake, she lost her temper. Then I lost mine.
I was trained on older cash registers to do things this way by a store manager who was very particular about this. He's been in business for more than 30 years and says he's never had a dispute with a customer over incorrect change. Way back then, you had to actually count the coin change. Many of the newer cash registers do this for you. I wonder how many of today's cashiers could make change in their heads.
What's my point? Most point of sale problems concerning change making are due to lack of skill and/or poor training of the cashier. Using more efficient denominations or pricing items to the nearest buck won't fix this.
How does Walmart affect it? (Score:3, Interesting)
The writer TOTALLY doesn't get it. (Score:3, Interesting)
It's hard enough when you have to deal in 5's and 10's, but as soon as you start asking a cachier to add or subtract 18 from ANYTHING, you're going to have trouble.
The whole problem here is that the author doesn't realize that humans are (a) not computers, and (b) don't care about handing out one less coin. The system we have, as imperfect as it is, evolved this way through error and natural selection. Sure, perhaps no one considered printing an 18 cent coin, but that's likely because they knew people would have trouble dealing with them. Humans inherently have trouble with simple arithmetic, so a system evolved that was less ERROR-PRONE, completely ignoring minor improvements in efficiency.
So, of course, one has to ask the question: Could we make the system less error-prone? Probably. Maybe our esteemed computer scientist should develop a system to determine which coins we need to have in order to make it more likely for a cachier to give back correct change.
What's better, taking 2 seconds longer to give you correct change or two seconds less to give you incorrect change? I'll wait the extra 2 seconds.
Or maybe I'll just use my credit card.
Re:Forget it. (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Forget it. (Score:5, Informative)
The Math is just WRONG. Here's why (Score:4, Insightful)
first,
that the price of goods is not partly determined by the demoninations of coins. for example, the reason why a candy bar is 50 cents or 65 cents and not say 48 cents is because we have nickels dimes and quarters. or that the reason a price is 5.95 cents and not 5.96 cents. etc..
Second,
this assumes your change purse is stocked with all denominations. that's true at the cash register but not in my pocket. When I reach in my pocket and I pull out some change there are a myraid of ways I can make 25 cents. 5 nickels, 2 dimes and a nickel, 5 pennies+ etc...,
not so with his optimal set. if I'm nissing any of the denominations its hard to make it up with the others.
third, entropy
again reaching for change in my pocket the goal is not to find the minumum number of coins but rather to be able to pay the bill without thinking too much. that is the more ways I can add up to the same value the more likely I will on a random grab find the right coins to make it. I dont care how many coins.
Re:4 coins? (Score:3, Funny)
Apparently so. That's what your dollars are now worth.
Yeah, haven't you heard about them? (Score:5, Funny)
Didn't you get the email? Just as the $20 bill is being replaced with a new design, the 10 cent coin is being phased out in favour of a 18 cent one.
This has advantages and disadvantages:
Advantages:
- The new coin has exactly the same appearance as the old 10 cent coin that it's replacing. This makes it both easier to recognise and use in vending machines. Oh, and they can still use the same mint presses too.
- The new coin gives you 80 percent increase in buying power over the old one, overnight and in the same form factor. Moore's Law, watch out!
- No need to ask the boss for a raise, because everyone has more money to spend.
- NFL defensive coordinators need never have to watch game film again! The new improved dime defense allows an extra eight defenders on the field of play, making the passing game obsolete and taking the game back to the I-wing formation era. Extra bonus: wide receivers are rendered useless once more, and Randy Moss and Terrell Owens finally have to shut their mouths and join the rest of us in the real world.
Disadvantages:- Not everyone recognises the new coins straight off the bat. Some people still insist that they are only worth 10 cents. Don't let them shortchange you! Demand your 18 cents worth!
- Base 18 is a bitch.
By the way, I'll soon be selling shares in my new e-venture: www.boyhaveigotabridgeforyou.com. Sign up now before the stock rockets!Semi-Log; Diameter; Thickness; Mass (Score:4, Interesting)
Euro 1,2,5,10,
When I was in Europe recently I noticed their semi-log scale change system of 1,2,5,10,20,50,... and really liked it compared with the US system, which has quarter dollars, but not $2.50 bills.
Evidently two bits are indivisible anyway these days, so Americans don't seem inordinately hooked on using powers of 2 to divide up their money all the time.
The US should have its monetary system go the same direction as the stockmarket which recently abolished fractions (down to what, 1/64, 1/128?) in favor of decimal stock prices.
Also, the US treasury needs to push $1 coins (and perhaps $2 and $5 coins) because the paper money wears out so much faster and costs more to replace than coinage.
And, while we're on the subject of monetary redesign, coins should be monotonically increasing in diameter, thickness, and mass to make it easier for people with poor vision.
In fact, if the weights were done nicely, it might even be possible to start weighing heterogeneous buckets of coins to obtain value (assuming no rocks, counterfeits).
Or to measure linear thickness of heterogeneous coin stacks and still have $/inch be as good a measure as $/weight, again, to avoid explicit counting.
Ahh, if nerds were running the world, things would be so damn efficient...
Re:*whap* (Score:3, Funny)
A friend and I were in CA on business and were totally unable to figure out the stripper tipping protocol. We had a few USD which the ladies were happy to accept. But then we were down to "hard" CA currency.
"Maybe you throw them?" I asked. Of course we didn't want to risk chipping a tooth.
One of the ladies drifted over after a while and started talking. S
Re:Canadiana (Score:3, Informative)
> In Canada, it's illegal to pay for any good or service, with more than 25 of any given denomination.
What he's talking about can be found in Section 8 of the Currency Act [justice.gc.ca].
Basically it is a no-nuisance law to stop people from doing things like pay fines using pennies. It doesn't say the money can be confiscated...
Many businesses will still except coins if they have been rolled. I know I have paid for movie tickes and extra value meals with rolls of nickles and dimes.
From the statute:
(2) A pa