Slashdot Log In
Ancient Fossil Offers Clues To Primate Evolution
Posted by
Soulskill
on Wed May 20, 2009 08:35 AM
from the unless-you're-from-kansas dept.
from the unless-you're-from-kansas dept.
langelgjm sends in an update to a story we discussed over the weekend about an extremely well-preserved fossil of an ancient primate, Darwinius masillae, that sheds light on an important area of evolution. The 47 million-year-old specimen has now been officially unveiled, and while many media outlets are stumbling over themselves with phrases like "missing link" and "holy grail," it's clearly a very impressive find. "Discovered two years ago, the exquisitely preserved specimen is not a direct ancestor of monkeys and humans, but hints at what such an ancestor might have looked like. According to researchers, 'The specimen has an unusual history: it was privately collected and sold in two parts, with only the lesser part previously known. The second part, which has just come to light, shows the skeleton to be the most complete primate known in the fossil record.' The scientific article describing the find was published yesterday in the peer-reviewed, open-access journal PLoS ONE. Google's home page is also celebrating the find with a unique image." Science blogger Brian Switek offers some criticism of the academic paper and the media swarm, saying, "I would have hoped that this fossil would receive the care and attention it deserves, but for now it looks like a cash cow for the History Channel. Indeed, this association may not have only presented overblown claims to the public, but hindered good science, as well."
Related Stories
[+]
Scientists Discover Common Ancestor of Monkeys, Apes, and Humans 391 comments
reporter writes "According to a report by the Wall Street Journal, scientists have discovered the common ancestor of monkeys, apes, and Slashdotters. The 47 million year old fossils were discovered in Germany. The ancestor physically resembles today's lemur. Quoting: 'The skeleton will be unveiled at New York City's American Museum of Natural History next Tuesday by Mayor Michael Bloomberg and an international team involved in the discovery. According to Prof. Gingerich, the fossilized remains are of a young female adapid. The skeleton was unearthed by collectors about two years ago and has been kept tightly under wraps since then, in an unusual feat of scientific secrecy. Prof. Gingerich said he had twice examined the adapid skeleton, which was "a complete, spectacular fossil." The completeness of the preserved skeleton is crucial, because most previously found fossils of ancient primates were small finds, such as teeth and jawbones.'"
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
I got 10 bucks here ... (Score:5, Interesting)
... says it's a hoax. Any takers?
Actually, even if not, the circumstances are now rather dubious. Hopefully it hasn't been damaged in the course of it being sold in two parts and shipped around in private hands.
Re:I got 10 bucks here ... (Score:5, Funny)
... says it's a hoax.
Of course its a hoax. everyone knows the earth is only 6000 years old.
Parent
Re:I got 10 bucks here ... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:I got 10 bucks here ... (Score:5, Funny)
... says it's a hoax. Any takers?
It's a pseudo-hoax. I'm sure the citizens of Magrathea are quite pleased that we're stumbling upon the little details they left.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
It was found over 25 years ago - why is it just now getting attention. Sound like a play for grant money to me
Re:I got 10 bucks here ... (Score:4, Informative)
Not just that, it was allegedly found by an amateur and hung in a collector's living room for 20 years [sky.com]!
Ida was unearthed by an amateur fossil-hunter some 25 years ago in Messel pit, an ancient crater lake near Frankfurt, Germany, famous for its fossils.
She was cleaned and set in polyester resin - and incredibly, was hung on a mystery German collector's wall for 20 years.
Sky News sources say the owner had no idea of the unique fossil's significance and simply admired it like a cherished Van Gogh or Picasso painting.
But in 2006, Ida came into the hands of private dealer Thomas Perner, who presented her to Prof Hurum at the annual Hamburg Fossil and Mineral Fair in Germany - a centre for the murky world of fossil-trading.
So the word, "fake" has crossed my mind too!
Parent
Re:I got 10 bucks here ... (Score:5, Informative)
This was studied for two years before it was released, so it seems that they've done some due diligence to make sure this was NOT a hoax.
X-rays were taken taken of the internal structures (which are allegedly impossible to fake) and they proved out to be authentic.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I got 10 bucks here ... (Score:5, Funny)
No way, Google [gmodules.com] changed their logo for this! It *has* to be real!
Parent
Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. (Score:5, Insightful)
Correlation is not causation. Just because different "racial" groups statistically have different levels of "intelligence" (a culturally defined and therefore biased concept) doesn't mean that race has anything to do with it. The assumption that this difference is caused by "racial"/genetic factors, without offering any evidence to support that assumption, is invalid and may be considered racist.
The history of humanity suggests that culture is the overriding causal factor. Asians and Europeans are just as capable as Africans (or any other "race") of having a primitive, oppressive and destructive culture, as has been well established through the ages. For example, we saw the same abject poverty in Europe during the Middle Ages, for cultural reasons that are well known. Also, contrary to popular prejudice, there are African countries that are doing pretty well.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Just out of curiosity, would you say the same thing about physical attributes?
ie, are Asians and Europeans just as capable of certain African peoples of sprinting or long distance running?
have different levels of "intelligence" (a culturally defined and therefore biased concept)
Ridiculously silly.
For example, we saw the same abject poverty in Europe during the Middle Ages, for cultural reasons that are well known
I think you need to learn your history a little better. You're discussing myths and falsehoods, which makes whatever your beliefs about some "cultural" reasons utterly irrelevant.
Re:Evolution is real -- even for modern man. (Score:4, Insightful)
As I understand it, IQ tests were largely developed by whites. You'd think that if they were biased, they'd have fiddled it so they came out on top.
Parent
Give it a rest (Score:3, Interesting)
Oh noes! People made money off it!! Science was "hindered"!
Please. Any hindrance is temporary (47 million years old and it's been a couple more years! Avast!!) and the fossil getting this much attention can only help the cause - money pouring into the area isn't a bad thing either unless you really like staying a poor researcher.
Re:Give it a rest (Score:5, Funny)
"That's amazing", said the tourist, "How do you know the age so exactly?"
"Well, that's easy", replied the guide. "It was 6.5 million years old when I started working here, and that was three and a half years ago."
Parent
Re:Give it a rest (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Meanwhile over in Congress (Score:5, Insightful)
Isn't it rather scary that while scientists are getting excited over this 47 million year old fossil that there are fossils in Congress who will swear on a stack of Bibles that the earth is only 6000 years old and that evolution is bunk.
That people can get elected without having basic modern ape like intelligence is the scary bit, this primate was probably more self-aware than many of those elected officials.
Re:Meanwhile over in Congress (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Meanwhile over in Congress (Score:5, Insightful)
And scariest of all? The world still turns, and objective reality refuses to accept that proper science is vital to hold the fabric of space-time together.
Honestly, the only reason anyone ought to care what a politician thinks about creationism is if they decide what's taught in public schools. This is almost always a state matter. Your U.S. Congressman has bunk to do with it.
And if it really, REALLY troubles you that some congressmen are anti-science, I suggest you give equal time to folks like Dennis Kucinich; after all, is seeing UFO's somehow more scientifically acceptable that an ID-proponent?
Parent
Re:Meanwhile over in Congress (Score:5, Interesting)
Honestly, the only reason anyone ought to care what a politician thinks about creationism is if they decide what's taught in public schools. This is almost always a state matter. Your U.S. Congressman has bunk to do with it.
Ah, yes, thanks for reminding us about the theory of federalism [wikipedia.org], on which our governing system is ostensibly based.
Now I'm going to explain to you how it works in the real world.
In the real world, the national government has become intimately involved in decisions at the state and local level, well beyond its enumerated powers. If nothing else, federal funding of local education has enabled it to threaten states with, "Don't want to do what we tell you? Then kiss your funding goodbye."
Yes, the federal government does have significant control over what can be taught in public schools. Why do you think the Supreme Court ever rules on cirriculum issues? Why don't federal judges respond to all such lawsuits that make it to their level by saying, "Meh, state matter, go away"?
So please don't act like Congressmen are powerless over what's taught in public schools.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Here you go. [wikipedia.org] Issue: teaching of ... creationism.
Edwards v. Aguillard
In the early 1980s, the Louisiana legislature passed a law titled the "Balanced Treatment for Creation-Science and Evolution-Science in Public School Instruction Act". The act did not require teaching either evolution or creationism as such, but did require that when evolutionary science was taught, so-called creation science had to be taught as well. ... the State appealed to the Supreme Court. ... In 1987 the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the Louisiana act was unconstitutional, because the law was specifically intended to advance a particular religion.
Re:Meanwhile over in Congress (Score:4, Funny)
I disagree. While the generation of material fragments is certainly interesting and has some practical applications (notably in armour and weapons designed to break it [wikipedia.org]) it's still a somewhat specialist and niche subject.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Meanwhile over in Congress (Score:4, Informative)
Seeing a flying object that you can't identify is scientifically acceptable. That is all he said. Tim Russert asked him about it, he said that all he has seen was an object he couldn't identify.
Dennis Kucinich is one of the only true liberals left in the Democratic party, and I would vote for him for president in a heartbeat. This UFO story gets blown all out of proportion by right wing loons in order to discredit him. Stop listening to loons.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You are quoting a story from an 'Extraterrestrial Politics' site? Seriously? Don't you think they might be a little biased?
Shirley McClain is a left wing loon. I would take anything she says with a huge grain of salt. Here's a transcript of the question Russert asked:
RUSSERT: Shirley MacLaine writes in her new book that you sighted a UFO over her home in Washington state, that you found the encounter extremely moving, that it was a triangular craft, silent and hovering, that you felt a connection to your heart and heard directions in your mind. Now, did you see a UFO?
KUCINICH: Uh, I did. And the rest of the account. It was an unidentified flying object, OK? It's like, it's unidentified. I saw something. Now, to answer your question. I'm moving my, and I'm also going to move my campaign office to Roswell, New Mexico, and another one in Exeter, New Hampshire, OK? And also, you have to keep in mind that Jimmy Carter saw a UFO, and also that more people in this country have seen UFOs than I think approve of George Bush's presidency.
I stand by my position that this is being blown out of proportion by people who don't agree with Kucinich's politics.
WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's just think for a moment about which branches of science contradict creationism:
biology
biochemistry
genetics
physics
astronomy
astrophysics
I'm sure there are other _genres_ of science too. Are you really saying that it doesn't matter if a leader of society believes that all the scientists working in these fields are wrong?
Believing in creationism is like believing the earth is flat, and would have huge consequences in many many public policy areas.
Parent
Re:WTF? (Score:5, Insightful)
Let's just think for a moment about which branches of science contradict creationism:
biology
biochemistry
genetics
physics
astronomy
astrophysics
I'm sure there are other _genres_ of science too. Are you really saying that it doesn't matter if a leader of society believes that all the scientists working in these fields are wrong?
Believing in creationism is like believing the earth is flat, and would have huge consequences in many many public policy areas.
I'll just take the last three, physics, astronomy, and astrophysics, and use one example to prove you wrong. Now, go read up on THIS [wikipedia.org] GUY [pbs.org] who used all three of these to support the idea that God created the universe.
Now, don't get me wrong, I find flat eathers and young earth creationists just as annoying as you do, so please don't lump all "creationists" together. Many are brilliant scientists who present valid cases for differing levels of creationism based on actual science, much like the example I listed above.
Religion and science are NOT mutually exclusive.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Really? It's likely that Dennis is lying about seeing a flying object he couldn't identify? Because that is all he said. Didn't say aliens, didn't say anything except that it was flying, it was an object, and he couldn't identify it. Only people looking for an excuse to dismiss Kucinich give that story any credence.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
That people can get elected without having basic modern ape like intelligence is the scary bit, this primate was probably more self-aware than many of those elected officials.
C'mon. They're self-aware alright, and they know all too well who's paying them. And it's not the voters.
Re:Meanwhile over in Congress (Score:5, Insightful)
C'mon now, slashdot always has these remarks, but you know what? NBC nightly news reported this find last night - the epitome of mainstream - and there was no mention of the Bible or controversy over the validity of evolution, none at all. Just excitement over a great find that may fill in the picture of evolution a bit more. At some point, decrying all this supposed scientific opposition which is really just a small fringe, becomes self-pity, or a persecution complex.
Parent
Re:Meanwhile over in Congress (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Meanwhile over in Congress (Score:5, Informative)
I find it more frightening that most of our leaders and most of the population in general have all bought into the idea that morality is just convention
And here we uncover the fossil known as Straw Man.
and that there is no higher power to answer to.
So? There is no evidence that there is. And if there is, there is no way we could know what "morality" he expects us to behave by. There is no reason that his standard of morality should match up with what we consider to be ethical.
And above all, I find it worrying that people only behave ethically out of fear of having to answer to some "higher power".
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Which would you consider more noble, ethics that I follow because I have decided that it is genuinely the right and proper thing to do by my own reasoning, or ethics that I follow because I am afraid of being punished for my transgressions in either this or the next life? I'd argue the former; an ethical system that derives its power from fear of the whip is not an ethical system at all, its slavish servitude.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Frankly, I find it more frightening that most of our leaders and most of the population in general have all bought into the idea that morality is just convention and that there is no higher power to answer to.
You find arbitrary morality more comforting than convention?
It's weird (Score:3, Insightful)
It's weird that people think following the supposed arbitrary whims of a giant invisible daddy figure in the sky is a decent basis for morality.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't mean to make morality simple but to simply illustrate that to base ones moral compass solely on the threat of a supreme being is ludicrous at best.
Yes, and as I said, I don't think anybody in the world has a moral compass that is 100% from religious belief and 0% from their own personal thoughts. Again, if you can give me some examples of people who have no moral compass separate from religion, I'd be interested in seeing/reading about that...I just don't believe they exist.
In fact, the point you make in your first para--for instance, looking at morality of actions in Christian society's in the past offers a perfect example of this. SOME morality may
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
2. Wives submit to your husbands and husbands submit to your wives. You're taking other passages out of context to read other meanings into them. Stop it.
3. A sacrifice to end all sacrifices where the one sacrificed come back from the dead? You got a problem with this? Seriously?
Reject christianity? sure. Bash it ignorantly? You'd be stupid to do that.
Media event (Score:5, Insightful)
This is more of a media event than a true major discovery. All orchestrated by the History Channel.
See this article. [discovermagazine.com]
Re: (Score:3)
Paleontologists really need to work on their language usage. An Engineer, Computer Scientist or Lawyer when describing these findings would say, "Attribute X on the skeleton shows a greater likelihood of this specimen being part of the following descendant groups, a, b, c. Further studies are warranted on other specimens for confirmation."
Instead you get "Woo hoo, call it Darwinius, this is my great grandfather to th
Igniting a non-existant debate? (Score:5, Interesting)
No way (Score:5, Funny)
Not a chance. They'd have to reduce the Hitler coverage to do that.
rj
Re:No way (Score:5, Funny)
Don't be dissing on the Hitler Channel. Those who are ignorant of Hitler are doomed to use him in Internet arguments.
Parent
ancient fossils (Score:3, Funny)
Looks like a monkey to me. (Score:3, Insightful)
Uh, she wasn't found two years ago (Score:5, Informative)
She was found in 1983 by an anonymous collector. She was sold to the University of Oslo two years ago.
Tony.
latest phdcomics is an exact fit (Score:4, Funny)
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php [phdcomics.com]
47 Millions years OLD? Really? (Score:3, Informative)
Are you positively ABSOLUTELY sure it is 47 Million years OLD?
Really?
http://www.astroengine.com/?p=1382 [astroengine.com]
-Hack
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
They mean that it is a relative of modern humans, but not a direct ancestor. You inherited DNA from your grandmother, but not your aunt.
Re:Gand*N+1 Aunt? (Score:5, Funny)
Admit it, you're just pretending to be from Alabama. It's obvious.
If you were for real, you wouldn't be able to read.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Interesting Subtext (Score:4, Insightful)
Creationists didn't hava a any leg to stand on....
Never did, it is simple an example of sensationalist journalism...
Anybody who thinks that creationists will simply give up one day when you show them a missing link is wrong.... creationists will simply point out that to them you just created two new missing links in the family tree....
The don't have arguments... just their dogma, you are not going to convince them.
Parent