Slashdot Log In
Lithium In Water "Curbs Suicide"
Posted by
Soulskill
on Fri May 01, 2009 11:13 PM
from the correlation-is-reeeally-chill-man dept.
from the correlation-is-reeeally-chill-man dept.
SpuriousLogic writes "Drinking water which contains lithium may reduce the risk of suicide, a Japanese study suggests. Researchers compared levels of lithium in drinking water to suicide rates in the prefecture of Oita, which has a population of more than one million. The suicide rate was significantly lower in those areas with the highest levels of lithium, they wrote in the British Journal of Psychiatry. And I was only worried about fluoridation affecting my precious bodily fluids before ..."
Related Stories
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
Anyone ever read that Stephen King story? (Score:5, Interesting)
Where they spike the water to cure aggression in people? It doesn't end well.
Re:Anyone ever read that Stephen King story? (Score:5, Funny)
Why not spike it with booze instead. "Every hour is happy hour!"
And when people then still continue to "off" themselves, we can say "no big deal, it was just another drunk."
So, can I have my research grant now?
Parent
Re:Anyone ever read that Stephen King story? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Anyone ever read that Stephen King story? (Score:5, Informative)
For those that do not know, lithium is a commonly prescribed medication for people with bipolar/manic depression disorder. Suicide is the only top 10-20 killer among all age groups in the US. The people most likely to commit suicide are bipolar people as opposed to people who are "normal" or those with other psychiatric disorders (major/minor depression, schizophrenia, etc). Similar studies to the one in this story have been done in Texas where lithium levels in the water supply are significantly above average compared to other states and the hospitalizations and suicide rate of bipolar people are less in Texas than other states. Yes, these studies are correlational, but anyone with a basic knowledge of statistics knows that correlation is well beyond the mantra shouted here that "correlation != causation".
Case in point with Nirvana's Lithium lyrics, the author of the song, Kurt Cobain [wikipedia.org], was bipolar, and he is now dead from suicide. The reason suicide is so common with bipolar people is because it is so difficult for them to handle the swings from the feelings of mania and euphoria down to the feelings of worthlessness and despair. Also, heavy substance abuse, particularly with central nervous system depressants like alcohol and heroin are common among bipolar people because they temporarily relieve stress (a trigger for instability) and well alcohol and heroin are quite pleasant drugs to do in the first place. Its not uncommon for them to semi-regularly do drugs like cocaine, MDMA, or LSD to bring back the familiar feelings of mania and euphoria.
Its common for the drug use or other unconventional social behaviors to be incorrectly deemed as causal towards the feelings and behaviors of people with bipolar disorder. I know someone very well who has bipolar disorder who has gone back and forth between a highly functional, well educated, intelligent, middle-class professional to chronic alcoholism, homelessness, in and out of jail and unemployment, to back again to the functional part. In our society, its not very permitted for people to take weeks, months or years away from activities like work or school which is what most people do from 5-65 years of age, and any and all deviations from consistency are heavily punished due to lower pay, lack of promotions, loss of jobs, jail, hospitalization, etc, which is enough to make any "normal" person depressed.
Parent
Anyone ever watch that Joss Whedon movie? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Anyone ever watch that Joss Whedon movie? (Score:5, Funny)
It was as if a million voices cried out 'WOOOSH' and were suddenly silenced.
Parent
Re:me two. (Score:4, Informative)
Hi! I also base all my scientific, medical, and public policy opinions on movies and other fiction.
FYI, lithium has been widely proscribed for depression for 25+ years. It's hardly surprising that a population that consumes more of it than normal would have a lower rate of suicide.
But you were saying about movies and other fiction? One can't make a humorous Strangelove reference in the same paragraph as reporting news?
Parent
Re:me two. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm usually not much of a grammar Nazi, but you should probably realize that prescribe and proscribe are almost antonyms.
Parent
Re:me two. (Score:5, Funny)
Patent? Lithium [wikipedia.org]? It's an element on the periodic table. How could it possibly have ever had a patent filed against it?
Parent
Re:me two. (Score:5, Insightful)
Patent? Lithium [wikipedia.org]? It's an element on the periodic table. How could it possibly have ever had a patent filed against it?
Because the actual drug isn't the only thing you can get a patent on. There's a fair bit of technology behind the manufacture and operation of pills and other drug-delivery systems. If a manufacturer managed to come up with a better way to deliver a clinical dose, I'd think it could be patented. And maybe you can't patent an element, but I suspect (given the USPTO's penchant for issuing marginal if not outright bogus patents lately) you could patent that element as a treatment for a specific ailment. Don't confuse what should be unpatentable for what actually isn't. Not anymore.
Parent
Re:me two. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:me too (Score:5, Informative)
Lithium is the third element in the periodic table, and the first metal. In other words, it is as far from being a heavy metal as it is possible to get.
Parent
Not surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
Concidering that Lithium is used to treat a number of mental illnesses like bipolar and depression that should be expected. Here in the US there are many living with undiagnosed depression and we are seen as a tollerant and accepting society in regards to mental health. In Japan there is far less social acceptance (at least when I lived there, maybe its changed) so I would expect and even higher percentage of non treated people.
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Informative)
Manic episodes are definitely not "irrationally and exceptionally happy" and are very often extremely unpleasant.
Lithium acts as a mood stabilizer and works on both depression and mania.
The post you replied to is exactly right. In places with a mood stabilizing chemical in the water, suicide rates are lower. Fairly unsurprising except that the amount of lithium being dealt with is probably well below the known therapeutic threshold.
Parent
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Informative)
Just glancing at the study, it's an interesting correlation, but it's going to be hard to do much with this. Just imagine the anti-floridation crowd going ballistic if anyone suggested adding Lithium to municipal water supplies.
Parent
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
Get your propaganda goggles on for this one.
Parent
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Funny)
And a universally delivered mood stabilizer makes for a conveniently complacent population. Get your propaganda goggles on for this one.
At first the idea of this totally pissed me off. But then I had a nice, cool, glass of water and thought better of it.
Parent
That's not how it works (Score:5, Informative)
In fact, it's the complete opposite: depressed people are much more complacent than not. Depression is not "being sad."
If you'd ever met a bipolar person you'd know what I mean. In their manic phases they'd go fight an army by themselves, they don't care about rules and retribution. In their depressed phase they can't get out of bed, let alone rebel against the established social order.
Parent
Re:That's not how it works (Score:5, Informative)
One of the biggest challenges in diagnosis and treatment of these diseases is defining the terms accurately in a clinically relevant manner. You got the depression part sort of correct, but bipolar disorders encompass a wide variety of symptom presentations. The "classic" manic depressive who might behave as you describe is called "type 1 bipolar disorder", but with type 2 bipolar disorder people are generally depressed with moods cycling downward toward more severe depression, although moods may swing upward toward hypomania. There's also a wide variety in the duration of the cycling, to the point where it may not be apparently different from normal mood changes.
Ultimately what we are talking about is the behavioral presentation of differences in brain structure and chemistry. On the surface what clinicians try to do is balance neurotransmitters using medications, but in practice what often happens is they merely try a series of medications until they hit on something that works. The effects of lithium are specific enough that it can almost be used diagnostically.
The interesting question raised here is when a naturally occurring substance becomes a drug. This question has been raging for years around fluoride. As a public health measure fluoridation is measurably effective but people question whether dental health is a sufficiently important reason to add a substance to drinking water. Iodized salt prevents an actual medical problem and goiter is now virtually unknown. Is the iodine a nutrient or a drug? What about fluoride? It seems to me that addition of lithium to the water supply would clearly fall under the definition of a drug. Even if it reduces the rate of suicide and mental illness the precedent set for "drugging the public" is far too serious and impinges on the rights of people who do not have a mental illness or chemical imbalances.
Treatment of mental illness must remain between a doctor and patient. The main benefit of this study is to increase public awareness of mental health issues, especially in a culture where mental illness is stigmatized.
Parent
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Interesting)
And maybe the real problem is that the body needs a certain amount of lithium to be stable, but some people need it more than other due to genetic predisposition.
And if we get it through water or through food is a different issue. One contributing fact can also be that we use pure sodium chloride in our cooking instead of a mix of salts where lithium and potassium also are present.
But it's probably best to avoid chewing on those LiIon batteries. But eating vegetables [naturalhea...niques.com] seems to be a good idea.
Parent
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Funny)
> Just imagine the anti-floridation crowd going ballistic if anyone suggested adding Lithium to municipal water supplies.
Not if we add it first, and tell them later...
Parent
Re:Not surprising (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is, too little of X mineral is bad, but too much is also bad.
We should all be getting hair analysis done to determine what minerals we need. Or maybe we should just live life - that works too for most people.
Parent
Lithium is used to fight bipolar disorder (Score:5, Interesting)
It is not widely promoted since it can't be patented. This is not a conspiracy theory (even if it sounds like this), see it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_pharmacology [wikipedia.org]
Re: Lithium is used to fight bipolar disorder (Score:5, Funny)
So lithium in the water would make people drink more water and get more lithum which makes them drink more water and get more... oh the humanity!
Parent
Re: Lithium is used to fight bipolar disorder (Score:5, Informative)
It can also cause thyroid problems and kidney failure. Patients must undergo very stringent tests to see if their body can cope with lithium, before it is given to them.
The problem is, lithium is highly toxic only very slightly above the theraputic threshold, making it extremely dangerous. Failure to drink, or sweating too much, will cause the lithium concentration to become dangerous or possibly deadly.
Well, that's -a- problem. Another is that it massively reduces the seizure threshold, so anyone potentially subject to seizures must also be put on anti-seizure medication to cancel the side-effect or risk having their brain turn into swiss cheese. However, each time you add medicines, you add risk of an abreaction to the new medication and also risk of the medications interacting in harmful ways.
(Many who die of medications they were prescribed die because the medications interacted.)
Despite Lithium being one of the longest-used medications for mental healthcare, it is still not very well understood. Patients are tried on it to see if it'll work for them, because it works much of the time. If it doesn't work, the doctor will try something else at random, and keep on going until something does work.
Why there haven't been studies using Lithium isotopes to trace the effects and identify the specific class(es) of condition(s) Lithium can deal with and which it can't, I don't know. It would seem easy enough and it would reduce the randomness in the mental healthcare industry.
Parent
Re: Lithium is used to fight bipolar disorder (Score:5, Interesting)
If this study shows effects from the amount of Li occuring in drinking water, then perhaps pharmacologists should reevaluate what the theraputic threshold is?
Parent
So this means... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:So this means... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
He might be right (Score:5, Funny)
Anyone else massively creeped out by this? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Anyone else massively creeped out by this? (Score:5, Informative)
I don't think anyone's saying anything about scientists PUTTING lithium into the water. They went around and measured levels of lithium already in the water and found that the areas with higher levels had less suicides. Seems like other factors could be at play here too, considering that geographic areas are often different from one another in many societal aspects.
Parent
Re:Anyone else massively creeped out by this? (Score:5, Interesting)
I suppose all water has some level of lithium. Maybe people evolved for lithium-rich water (compared to the worldwide average today) and millions of people worldwide are actually suffering from lithium deficiency. Heck, it even kills some of them.
Parent
Re:Anyone else massively creeped out by this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why is being calm equated to being a zombie or being in a herd? Im certainly not advocating spiking the water with anything but fluoride, but its interesting how we react to news like this. We completely accept the speedy society. Hell, politicans and business want us to be stressed out and speedy. They want us to gulp down more afternoon coffee, red bull, bawls, soda, sugar, etc. It makes you more productive right? So, now youre doing the work of two people and catching up on your deadlines. Its not their concern that youre slowly developing heart disease or that youre anxious all the time and finally end up crashing around 3 or 4pm only to go home and veg out in front of the TV until bedtime to start the cycle over again. Theyre just happy they didnt have to hire an extra person in your department.
So, when someone suggests that calm might be better for you socially and medically, suddenly we're frothing at the mouth and jonsing for starbucks. I think this says a lot about modern society. Personally, I have no patience with the speedy types. You know, the over-worked person at your company who is on her third starbucks before 10am and wont stop talking your ear off or is buzzing around like a loon at all your meetings. Yeah, I want to work on a project with her.
Perhaps there's something to being in a calm town, regardless whether its water causing it or just people who want to be calm and happy instead of anxious and speedy.
Parent
Re:Anyone else massively creeped out by this? (Score:5, Funny)
"unless it would be a chemical to stop rational thinking"
Holy water?!!
Parent
ebstein's anomaly (Score:5, Informative)
lithium is well known (Score:5, Insightful)
for its ability to suppress suicidal urges. It's significantly more effective at suicide reduction than any other drug available. For this reason, it's still commonly used for treating people with bipolar. Ironically, it's also one of the more toxic drugs and easy to commit suicide with.
Having drugs that reduce the incidence of suicide is extremely important especially for bipolar. Post diagnosis, there is approximately a 15 to 20% suicide rate for bipolar patients. I was almost in that 15 to 20% I know very clearly why people try to end their lives and I also know that if they're not terminally ill, it can and should be prevented.
If a friend or family member is seriously down, withdraws from social circles (and not just because they're on a bataan death march coding project), start giving away belongings or are talking about how it hurts too much to stay alive, ask them these three questions.
Do you have a plan to kill yourself? (Ask how)
do you have the materials to kill yourself with?
Do you have a place/time for killing yourself?
A single yes means stay close, call mental health in the morning. Two yeses or more means get the person to the emergency room and tell the doctor about these questions and responses. If the person will not go with you, call the emergency room, tell them what's going on and they will send emergency personnel to help.
Almost all people thinking of suicide will give you signals and, even though they may not show it, want someone to stop them. Most importantly, if you try and they kill themselves anyway, don't blame yourself.
Re:lithium is well known (Score:5, Insightful)
Mod parent up.
People who intend to commit suicide tend to talk about it. It means they need help, please try and get them to it/it to them.
Parent
Re:lithium is well known (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Does not address core problem (Score:5, Interesting)
Araaag, drugs drugs drugs drugs. How about addressing the core problem of making life not SUCK so much?!
Re:Does not address core problem (Score:4, Interesting)
How do you make life not suck so much? Seriously -- is it better pay? Free sex? More leisure time? I am depressed about 90% of the time and have been since I was 16 (I'm 40 now). I work part-time (about 3 days/week on average), make a (barely) six figure income, and my wife is bi. I'm not making up a word of this. I should feel incredibly happy, but instead, a life-long sense of despair prevents exactly that.
I think there is a good part of depression that is due to external forces. I can say that when I was poor, it was worse. But a large part of depression is wholly internal and no amount of "making life suck less" is going to change that.
Parent
Re:Does not address core problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Funny thing about living through stressful difficult times is you learn to be content with what you have. I live in the third world under an undemocratic government and have a much lower standard of living than you guys, but I'm quite happy.
I'd say, its the old problem of the more you have, the more you want. Happiness has nothing to do with material wealth or possessions. Its a state of mind.
Parent
Fuck man... (Score:5, Funny)
Putting mood stabilizers in water. Fuck, that's a creepy thought. I mean ... damn, isn't that supposed to be the realm of Coast to Coast AM?
Re:Fuck man... (Score:5, Funny)
Your tin-foil hat has reported back to the Department of Thought as malfunctioning. Fear not, it will soon be returned in proper working order.
Parent
MR PRESIDENT! (Score:4, Funny)
Mr. President, we cannot allow a lithium gap!
Stop tagging correlationisnotcausation (Score:4, Insightful)
People, please stop tagging every study on Slashdot with correlationisnotcausation. I know it's standard here to believe this community is somehow more enlightened than all others, but do you really think that researchers became researchers without being able to ask simple questions? In fact, in an idealized study, it's not even a relevant question!
Moreover, this moronic practice is especially stupid for this story because the neurological effects of lithium salts have been explored for decades. This is not a revolutionary study by any means. So unless years and years of studies have gone horribly wrong, then yes, in this case, correlation does, in fact, imply causation.
Side Effects (Score:5, Informative)
According to Epocrates, Lithium has side effects
Common Reactions:
tremor
polyuria
diarrhea
vomiting
drowsiness
muscle weakness
arrhythmias
anorexia
nausea
blurred vision
dry mouth
fatigue
Serious Reactions:
coma
seizures
ventricular arrhythmias
bradycardia, severe
syncope
goiter
hypothyroidism
hyperparathyroidism
pseudotumor cerebri
Raynaud's phenomenon
diabetes insipidus
Re:HS chem may be a fading memory but... (Score:4, Informative)
Evidently it is fading for you ;-)
They are talking about lithium ions in water (from salts like lithium chloride), not dumping metallic lithium in the reservoires ;-)
Parent
Re:HS chem may be a fading memory but... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Unethical (Score:5, Insightful)
So can we ethically allow mind-altering substances that are naturally present to exist in the water supply? It's a tricky business the moment you cease drinking water from rivers or springs and start piping it anywhere. The people piping it suddenly have an ethical obligation regarding its contents.
This study was to identify potential NATURAL contaminants that alter emotional disposition. Nothing about changing the water supply. It is potentially interesting, in that it may change our understanding of suicidal behaviour from place to place, and our understanding of something as simple as the water supply's varied social effects.
When you drink tap water, you (presumably a healthy person) are consuming a substance that may or may not have mind-altering substances just naturally. Almost all chemicals have some negligible effect on the mind, some moreso than others. Your region probably hasn't been analysed for lithium concentrations; you could be in a naturally higher region for all you know. Are you being given a mind-altering substance without your consent? Quite possibly.
Or to put it another way... There are more shades of grey than there are in your morality.
Parent
Re:Great for mind, not to great for the Kidney's (Score:5, Informative)
FYI, lithium is not a heavy metal. It's the lightest metal, and 3rd lightest element, just behind hydrogen and helium.
That said, yes, it is quite toxic at the higher end of the therapeutic range, but the bottom end of the dosing range is about 5 orders of magnitude above the highest levels found in this (assuming an consumption of average of 3 litres per day), so I would think the toxic results from the naturally occurring lithium would be negligible.
Parent