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Down's Symptoms May Be Treatable In the Womb
Posted by
timothy
on Thu Nov 27, 2008 06:10 PM
from the hey-kid-drink-this dept.
from the hey-kid-drink-this dept.
missb writes "US researchers have found that prenatal treatment for Down syndrome works in mice. This raises the possibility that a pregnant woman who knows her unborn child has Down syndrome might be able to forestall some of the symptoms before giving birth. When fetal mouse pups that had a syndrome similar to Down's were treated with nerve-protecting chemicals, some of the developmental delays that are part of the condition — such as motor and sensory abilities — were removed."
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Not quite comprehending (Score:2)
I was looking for some sense that knowledge of the condition might produce some automatic results from the mother's body. But, that was before I realised it was impossible to communicate with mice. Atleast, without a babelfish.
Good news everyone! (Score:5, Funny)
US researchers have found that prenatal treatment for Down syndrome works in mice.
Today is a happy day for all mousekind!
Re:Good news everyone! (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Dammit, he could have been Dr. Mickey Mouse =(
Disabled does not mean "Better off Dead". (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Suck em out (Score:5, Interesting)
Isn't an abortion a lot cheaper? I mean, with these genetic misfits being somehow a part of society, we could be doing some damage to our gene pool.
Erm, in case your remark isn't facetious: individuals with Down's Syndrome are typically sterile.
Parent
Nice troll, but... (Score:2)
... as Down's syndrome people seldom reproduce, no, we're not doing damage to the gene pool.
Some interesting questions might be asked about the ability of Down's syndrome sufferers to look after themselves after their parents have died, and who does it if they can't. I don't know the answers, though.
Re:Nice troll, but... (Score:5, Insightful)
As a general rule their intellectual development will freeze at around the level of a 4th or 5th grader, but they are capable of the emotional maturity and ability to complete of domestic tasks to keep themselves alive. They can often do quite well in a sharehouse/hostel kind of environment with a part-time carer or health professional available to help them with complex tasks or issues. Complete independence is unlikely (although possible in some cases) but they're not helpless.
Parent
Re:Nice troll, but... (Score:4, Interesting)
A friend told me about a young man with Downs syndrome who is adept at arithmetic. He lives alone and works as an accountant. Not bad at all for someone with his condition. If only us "normal" people all had the winning attitude and supportive family this man has...
Parent
Chris Burke (Score:4, Interesting)
A friend told me about a young man with Downs syndrome who is adept at arithmetic. He lives alone and works as an accountant. Not bad at all for someone with his condition.
Ever heard of Chris Burke [wikipedia.org]? Quite a lot of people would be jealous of accomplishments like that.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It's uncommon but they can reproduce.
I think the nature of Down's though is that they seldom outlive their parents - life expectancy is much lower.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the point of this is more in figuring out how to, step by step, intercept and prevent the syndrome entirely.
Sure, abortion prevents it as well. But the option to defeat the syndrome during development and not have it expressed at all in a living person would be better.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
Down's is caused by an extra chromosome, it's impossible to defeat the syndrome during development without modifying the genetic code of every cell in the body.
Abortion should be an option for those who agree with it, but those who don't and who belong to high-risk groups (women in their late forties who do not agree with contraception either) need to understand that they are playing Russian roulette, which is fitting if they can see Russia from their house.
Re: (Score:2)
it's impossible to defeat the syndrome during development without modifying the genetic code of every cell in the body.
So what you're saying is, it might be easier when the body consists of fewer cells?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
> So what you're saying is, it might be easier when the body consists of fewer cells?
It will be easier but still impossible. You would have to remove a complete choromose from every cell in the body. We cannot even remove a single chromosome from a cell, by the time it is possible to diagnose downs syndrome, there are millions/billions of cells already. Even if such a treatment were possible (and I daresay this will not happen during our lifetimes), it would have all kinds of risks, and it would probably
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Down's is caused by an extra chromosome, it's impossible to defeat the syndrome during development without modifying the genetic code of every cell in the body.
Removing the extra gene can't be done, but for curing the symptoms (including the mental retardation), this research looks very promising. And it's the symptoms that are the problem here.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
> In the mean time, you might want to take a google maps look at the Western U.S. and Canada.
There may be space for more more people, but do you really think we could support even the 6 billion people we have now if all of them would have american standards of living?
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
did you everthink of that.
and to see it from the other pov, once you are aware you have life, you want to keep it. (well most of us do).
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:5, Funny)
maybe that is because they don't fully understand what they are missing, or just can't compehend it ?
I tend to assume that's why most of the people who aren't me haven't committed suicide. Slashdot trolls: the reason 59th trimester abortions should be legal.
Parent
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:5, Insightful)
They? What about you? I'm sure there's plenty you don't comprehend and are missing but don't know about.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't want to minimize whatever it is you have been through, but it's presumptuous of you to call everyone else's knee-jerk reactions as if you are the only person who has problems or has dealt with mental or genetic "disorders". You obviously don't have Down's Syndrome, so why do you think everyone with Down's would share your view if they were "normal"?
It sounds like you have setup a false dichotomy in your mind somehow that people are either "human" or not. Evolution has shown us otherwise innumerable
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
How people with Down's Syndrome would respond "yes" to the question "Do you wish you born normal, like everyone else?"
How could they say that, when having that genetic defect made them who they are? To answer that question in the affirmative is to admit that they would unmake their entire lives, to never to have existed at all.
The false dichotomy is in the minds of the people who equate that reasoning with suicide, and who believe that aborting a Down's fetus is equivalent to executing a living, breathing c
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:5, Insightful)
No, they can't. Everyone will do everything they can to stop them, they'll have long periods of trauma and depressions, if they miss they'll be put in a psychiatric hospital, and it may make things worse.
In this world, killing yourself is potentially harder than killing someone else.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You've obviously never had a gun pointed at you. Point one at yourself. Go ahead, try it.
Why do you think military training takes so long? Self-preservation is a hell of a fear. If you are in a situation where you know you could die very easily, this hidden fear kicks in HARD.
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:4, Insightful)
So I can commit any atrocity I want as long as I give my victims the option of suicide to escape it?
Suicide is actually a terrible thing, even (especially?) for those who commit it. I don't think it's humane to say "Oh, you don't like the life we forced you to have or the world we forced you to live in? Kill yourself!". Actually, I think you're sick.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
And to your solution I have another, if the kid really feels that way, there is an easy way: suicide. If they felt that it was best not to have existed they can kill themselves. But honestly, I don't see any sky-high suicide rates for mentally impaired people, dying people or people with health conditions.
While possibly true, two details remain.
Abortion is legal, where suicide is illegal.
And once a person tries to kill themselves, they are locked down so they can't use their hands nor move. Most people don't consider that an improvement to their life style.
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:5, Insightful)
Have you ever spent time with someone with Down's Syndrome, severe Autism,
Parent
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:5, Informative)
You're right about people with Down's syndrome though.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Misnomer.
It should really be called Up syndrome.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Like children, they may not be demonstratively conscious of the way the world works, but they're chock full of raw instinct. Dogs have the emoti
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:4, Insightful)
Then perhaps the solution for a perfectly happy society is to lobotimize ourselves, become completely dependent on our caregivers, and die at thirty.
Wait, isn't that Logan's Run?
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:2)
There is graveyard near where I live.
Its full of people with no problems at all. From where I stand, they must be VERY happy.
Also (Score:5, Insightful)
Shooting people in the head means they won't get cancer!
I'm not sure what your experience is but I've met and known quite a few people with Downs Syndrome who seemed happy. Certainly as happy as the rest of us at any rate.
It seems rather ridiculous to assume their lives aren't worth living. What next, deciding a childs life isn't going to be worth it because they aren't as sexy as Hugh Jackman or hung like Ron Jeremy?
Parent
Re:Also (Score:4, Funny)
If being hung like Ron Jeremy meant I had to look like Ron Jeremy, I'd probably pass.
Parent
Re:Also (Score:5, Funny)
What next, deciding a childs life isn't going to be worth it because they aren't as sexy as Hugh Jackman or hung like Ron Jeremy?
You mean, you aren't? And yet you keep pressing on everyday, you brave little soldier...
Parent
Moral Atrophy, not a moral trophy (Score:2)
Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?
"Good point. You may go." -- Your friends, Orange Roughy (140 years), Bristlecone Pine (4500 years), Galapagos Tortise (150 years).
To preempt complaints regarding non-human intelligence, we defer to Douglas Adams on the subject of humans, dolphins and digital watches.
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
It depends -- for how long would I get to suck on Palin's tah-tah's? I mean, theoretically, that's a perk you could probably -ahem- milk for a few years, no?
Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives (Score:3, Insightful)
There's already a treatment guaranteed to prevent the expression of these symptoms: abortion.
I know I'm violating Godwin's Law here, but in this case, to hell with Godwin. Nice answer there, Mein Heir; tell us, what are your exacting standards for the rest of humanity? Who else gets the axe in your perfect world?
Who the hell are you to tell people what kind of contribution they can make in this world? Who the hell are you to determine who gets to live and who has to die without even a chance for life? I've never in my 40 years met a family that regretted their Downs child. I've never met a family t
Re:Apparently, the Eugenics Movement lives (Score:5, Insightful)
What you've never met isn't people who regretted their childs. That is actually extremely common. What you have never met, is people who, in this polically correct society (and in other society that has similar levels of peer pressure), will admit to it, even to their closest confidents.
Considering your stance on the matter, which you seem to hold pretty dear from the wording you use (and you are fully entitled to it, I'm not saying you're wrong or anything), I doubt anyone would EVER dare tell you that they regretted their child, down's syndrom or not.
To give a different point of view, at the risk of getting flamed to hell and beyond, I really, really despise kids (don't worrie, I'll never have to make my significant other go through an abortion... snip snip and all, thats all taken care of). Like, really, REALLY hate kids. Everyone around me knows my stance on this. Because of this, I had a LOT of mothers and families tell me in secret how they wish they never had their kids. In certain cases, that they didn't even love them, but that they still did what they could so it wouldn't show. None of those were disabled child's families, either. And to make things clear, I don't live in a ghetto, and the people I'm talking about came from all kinds of families, from poor to rich, etc.
Only in Wonderland does all families consider their kids blessings, ESPECIALLY kids with issues. They may not admit it, they may WANT to love them. That doesn't mean they do.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
There are people in the world who are healthier, fitter, and smarter than you. Compared to them, you're disabled.
Should you therefore, according to your logic, be executed?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Everybody might have health complications. I am happy to live, even if I have thyroid dysfunction, and early graying.
Shorter lifespans are not so much of an issue. People smoke, eat a lot, and don't exercise, everyday, everywhere.
That leaves us with the central issue: the mental "retardation" problem.
In my case, I wouldn't mind having a much lower IQ than I have now. Most people I know do, and they are happy. I don't think rational abilities are that much important for a good life.
I know several individuals
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a continuous spectrum of cognitive capacity from near-vegetative to super-genius. Are we supposed to decide people's right to live based on arbitrary cut-offs on tests that we already know aren't perfectly valid? Absolutely not.
I really wish that my advisor would get her study submitted and published so that I could link to it here. (I'm sure she says the same thing about my own as well).
She's been doing early intervention with DS kids much earlier than ever before and providing high-tech means for them to communicate. After 5 years the kids are entering school on-par with their peers.
It is starting to look like mental retardation is a secondary symptom of DS, not a primary one. DS results in SPEECH disability, which messes up language development, which in turn screws up cognitive development. We've been providing an alternative, non-speech, means to communication development and it has led to surprisingly positive results in cognition development. (This falls into the category of "manuscript in progress" and hasn't been published in a peer-reviewed journal yet, but I expect it to pass that hurdle in the next year or so).
Here is a description of the study methods.
http://www.aac-rerc.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=135&Itemid=152 [aac-rerc.com]
It's in Breeze. Sorry about that.
So, if it becomes known that Down syndrome only causes mental retardation when we fail to provide the right care and education, do you still think that abortion/eugenics is an appropriate treatment???
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Wouldn't you prefer never to have existed if you knew you would be subjected to mental retardation, health complications, and a short lifespan?
Shitty attitude aside, you seem to be doing just fine.
LK
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:5, Insightful)
Wish I had mod points. You deserve some for being absolutely right while likely getting flamed into oblivion for it.
The GP is not right. All the things he mentions are relative, not absolute. People with DS can lead happy, fulfilling lives, and that's really the only thing that matters in this case. Before you judge the value of the lives of people with DS you should ask them whether they would have preferred not to have been born.
Parent
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:4, Interesting)
Can? Sure.
Need to? Hell no, not in a world overpopulated by a factor of 2-5.
I don't have to ask anyone to judge their value in that context. At its coldest, its not hard to judge absolute value -- what is the benefit a birth will bring to society versus its cost.
If you want to talk relative vs absolute, there's a pretty significant percentage of people who end up in the red on that count.
If society has a certain amount of resources available to support the raising of the next generation, and the birth of the child in question will use the resources that otherwise could've been used for ten children without fundamental genetic defects, that's a pretty absolute value judgment as well.
The GP is absolutely right -- we as a society (particularly in the US) fail miserably at making rational judgment calls because of a misguided and unjustified assignment of irrational amounts of value to a bunch of cells.
Parent
Re:It's a deformed child, not a moral trophy (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't have to ask anyone to judge their value in that context. At its coldest, its not hard to judge absolute value -- what is the benefit a birth will bring to society versus its cost.
If you want to talk relative vs absolute, there's a pretty significant percentage of people who end up in the red on that count.
How do you measure the benefits and costs to society? In dollar value? That would be pretty much impossible, certainly in the case of benefits. How can you quanify the benefits a person brings?
If society has a certain amount of resources available to support the raising of the next generation, and the birth of the child in question will use the resources that otherwise could've been used for ten children without fundamental genetic defects, that's a pretty absolute value judgment as well.
I don't agree with this. A society is about people giving and taking. Different people give and take different amounts and this varies with their environment and the stage of their life. I know of people with DS who definately contribute more than they take. Converesly I know of a lot of people who take considerably more than they give. I wouldn't advocate killing people on that basis.
Incidentally I'd be interested to know how you get the over-populated by 2-5 figure. I'm not arguing with it, I'm just curious.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Because Human life isn't valued in economic terms, not yet anyway. By your judgment, everything up to and including genocide would be perfectly justified as long as the balance sheet came out positive.
There is no line where the unthinkable becomes OK. If it's wrong for a million people to be killed for a reason, then it's also wrong for 1 person to be killed.
According to this http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000815/825.html [aafp.org] diagnosis is usually done at 16 weeks at the earliest. That puts the baby squarely in th
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Or, prevent births from those deemed unfit [wikipedia.org].