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Brain Cells Observed Summoning a Memory
Posted by
timothy
on Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:29 AM
from the can-we-say-frickin'-amazing? dept.
from the can-we-say-frickin'-amazing? dept.
Anti-Globalism writes "Scientists have for the first time recorded individual brain cells in the act of summoning a spontaneous memory, revealing not only where a remembered experience is registered but also, in part, how the brain is able to recreate it."
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bet the wont summon one from me (Score:3, Funny)
Like the one where I rtfa'd.
I have doubts (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I have doubts (Score:4, Insightful)
In all seriousness, this is the first step on the road to a computer that can Feed Me Information Directly! yipeeeeee!
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
"The practical utility of this is highly questionable."
Many things in science have little practical utility until well after the fact. We could name a lot from mathematics alone, someones little curiousity becomes some key concept for understanding some other problem somewhere down the line. While I agree not all of them turn out like that, the fact is we're going to have dead ends no matter which way you slice it, it's one long search for what is true and relevant.
Careful! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Careful! (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Careful! (Score:4, Informative)
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What the article actually says... (Score:5, Informative)
Article Text (Score:5, Informative)
September 5, 2008
For the Brain, Remembering Is Like Reliving
By BENEDICT CAREY
Scientists have for the first time recorded individual brain cells in the act of summoning a spontaneous memory, revealing not only where a remembered experience is registered but also, in part, how the brain is able to recreate it.
The recordings, taken from the brains of epilepsy patients being prepared for surgery, demonstrate that these spontaneous memories reside in some of the same neurons that fired most furiously when the recalled event had been experienced. Researchers had long theorized as much but until now had only indirect evidence.
Experts said the study had all but closed the case: For the brain, remembering is a lot like doing (at least in the short term, as the research says nothing about more distant memories).
The experiment, being reported Friday in the journal Science, is likely to open a new avenue in the investigation of Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia, some experts said, as well as help explain how some memories seemingly come out of nowhere. The researchers were even able to identify specific memories in subjects a second or two before the people themselves reported having them.
"This is what I would call a foundational finding," said Michael J. Kahana, a professor of psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, who was not involved in the research. "I cannot think of any recent study that's comparable.
"It's a really central piece of the memory puzzle and an important step in helping us fill in the detail of what exactly is happening when the brain performs this mental time travel" of summoning past experiences.
The new study moved beyond most previous memory research in that it focused not on recognition or recollection of specific symbols but on free recall â" whatever popped into people's heads when, in this case, they were asked to remember short film clips they had just seen.
This ability to richly reconstitute past experience often quickly deteriorates in people with Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia, and it is fundamental to so-called episodic memory â" the catalog of vignettes that together form our remembered past.
In the study, a team of American and Israeli researchers threaded tiny electrodes into the brains of 13 people with severe epilepsy. The electrode implants are standard procedure in such cases, allowing doctors to pinpoint the location of the mini-storms of brain activity that cause epileptic seizures.
The patients watched a series of 5- to 10-second film clips, some from popular television shows like "Seinfeld" and others depicting animals or landmarks like the Eiffel Tower. The researchers recorded the firing activity of about 100 neurons per person; the recorded neurons were concentrated in and around the hippocampus, a sliver of tissue deep in the brain known to be critical to forming memories.
In each person, the researchers identified single cells that became highly active during some videos and quiet during others. More than half the recorded cells hummed with activity in response to at least one film clip; many of them also responded weakly to others.
After briefly distracting the patients, the researchers then asked them to think about the clips for a minute and to report "what comes to mind." The patients remembered almost all of the clips. And when they recalled a specific one â" say, a clip of Homer Simpson â" the same cells that had been active during the Homer clip reignited. In fact, the cells became active a second or two before people were conscious of the memory, which signaled to researchers the memory to come.
"It's astounding to see this in a single trial; the phenomenon is strong, and we were listening in the right place," said the senior author, Dr. Itzhak Fried, a professor of neurosurgery at the University of California, Los Angeles, and the University of Tel Aviv.
His co-authors were Hagar Gelbard-Sagiv, Michal Harel and Rafael Malach of
Um, we've known this for well over 10 years!!!! (Score:4, Informative)
The article will be more low-key (Score:5, Interesting)
This is the kind of claim you make in the NY Times or another public media outlet: while it might happen, because sometimes people do stupid things, I doubt the actual research article will go so far as to say anything so far-fetched.
While it makes logical sense (memory, so far as it is located any single place, does seem to be strongly linked to the deeper, distinct organs within the brain, like the hippocampus), there is no actual way to "know" what exactly is going on: this is a quasi-experimental design, at best, and at most all they can reliably say is "Similiar structures in the brain responded in a similar way during recall of an event compared with how they behaved during the observation of the event itself." For example, it has been shown in some studies that areas in the occipital area of the brain (which has been strongly linked to vision) "light up" when a subject is asked to describe a previously viewed visual stimulus: however, researchers in these studies make no claims to such being evidence of an observed activation of a memory, which is essentially the claim being made here. Typically, the most they will offer in such studies is that the brain may be "spoofed" into thinking it is viewing the same stimulus again, thus activating certain, similiar function. Logically, both the visual research and this phenomena certainly sound like memory: but logic isn't science, nor is something true because it makes logical sense. Newtonian mechanics make logical sense, but good luck building a model of the universe as successful as one provided by quantum/relativistic physics, which often times make utterly no logical sense.
This is one of the key problems in any kind of study concerning phenomena which are part and parcel of the conscious mind/brain: being that we do not experience the subject's perceptions ourselves, and since consciousness is so singular and personal, we might never be able to say with any clear confidence what we are observing in the brain. However, kudos to the researchers. At the very least they've examined a function (whatever it is) within the brain that is an utter pain in the ass to study.
Awesome innovation! ; (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Awesome innovation! ; (Score:5, Funny)
We're one step closer to a "Forget your first sexual encounter" pill.
Here on slashdot, we call that "placebo".
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Neo: (Score:5, Funny)
Neo: I know Kung-Fu.
Morpheus: Show me.
Neo: It starts at 0x21b3a5da.
Give me a practical use... (Score:5, Funny)
Memories not stored locally (Score:5, Interesting)
I've read a number of books which discuss in detail the fact that memory is stored non-locally, in a method similar to the way a hologram stores information non-locally. The book 'The Holographic Universe' is the most recent example that I've read. It's a fascinating book - well worth a read. In fact I've read it twice now. With respect to memory, it goes on to say that in experiments with mice, researchers said they were incapable of destroying a memory of how to complete a maze by surgically removing brain tissue. The more they removed, the more foggy the memory appeared, but it never disappeared. This strongly backs the holographic storage method that the book postulates.
If these scientists think they've seen an individual brain cell recall a memory, then I think they're horribly mistaken.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
For every guy out there, (misogynist comment inbound) I have to say I hope this leads to better understanding of how women communicate and remember things as compared to men. Perhaps there will be a translator, or a pill to make them more understandable? doh!
Well, perhaps this will lead to true understanding of memories, and how the brain actually functions. I hope. I'd like to see some real AI in my lifetime and the human brain is the best example we have of how to create that.
Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Funny)
Don't forget Jujitsu and a crash course in helicopter piloting.
Anyone? Anyone?
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:4, Interesting)
Because I'd laugh my ass off at somebody who thought they would be able to jump straight into a 7th dan Karate Kata, and fall flat on their face.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, muscle memory is stored in the cerebellum, not the cerebrum. That's why you don't have to "think" about it to do it.
Most of the martial arts training is about moving the information from the latter to the former.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if they stretched first they'd have to be able to balance rather than just know the actual techniques. Someone else's "muscle memories" of how to balance properly while performing a technique will likely be different from the ones you need, if your weight distribution is different.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:4, Funny)
it's all about bus speed.
Keep it over 50 mph, right?
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Funny)
and several other Asian terms.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:4, Insightful)
No one I know has ever contested that memories are stored in the "mind." What is debated is whether they are stored in the brain (as opposed to DNA, RNA, patterns in the physical structure of the brain, ect.) In this subject that distinction is very important. Particularly given that from a neuroscience perspective, "Mind" and "Soul" might as well be synonymous.
This is certainly a large step towards understanding memories, but it doesn't tell us anything about where the memories are stored, just what part of the brain activates when a memory is recalled. (That they've got it down to specific neurons is either highly impressive or a exaggeration in my estimation.)
Oh and "Soul" = "Dark Energy" you know "We have no fucking clue how to account for the data so we're going to name it this until we come up with something better."
When they can isolate the "Bing" moment (the point at which neurological function gives rise to experiential phenomenon) then we can put down the idea of a soul entirely, not before.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:4, Insightful)
When they can isolate the "Bing" moment (the point at which neurological function gives rise to experiential phenomenon) then we can put down the idea of a soul entirely, not before.
Sadly, not everyone will. While everyone who has a clue about science certainly will, a lot of people rather trust religion than science and will continue to believe that memories are stored in the soul. After all, there are also a lot of people out there who still believe in ID, even with all the overwhelming scientific research against it.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Interesting)
You'll have to agree that it is a bit depressing knowing for certain that your existence is just the few years you spend 'alive' and after that it's all gone. And for some, it's too depressing.
Humans need to know they'll live on somehow, that their lives have some meaning. And if you're not famous enough to hope for historical eternal life, than soul is what you have left.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, I find the thought of simply ceasing to exist not that bad; although I seriously don't want to die (and thus are transhumanist), believing in no afterlife were you would be judged gives you a nice feeling of freedom - while religious people usually try to avoid a lot of things since they want to reach heaven (or whatever else they believe in how they will be rewarded for a life devoted to their god[s]), I act on my own moral criterias without any pressure, being free to choose what is right and what not on my own.
Though yes, I fully agree with you.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Insightful)
believing in no afterlife were you would be judged gives you a nice feeling of freedom - while religious people usually try to avoid a lot of things since they want to reach heaven (*snip*), I act on my own moral criterias without any pressure
For a long while I've thought that, while it takes a large amount of moral stamina to live by most religious codes, it takes as much if not more to realize that the responsibility for determining what's good and what's evil lies squarely on your own shoulders, and still do the right thing
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Interesting)
I didn't come into existence until 1986. For billions of years, I wasn't the least bit upset about it.
In other words, if "life" after death is the same as "life" before life, then there is little I have to worry about.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Interesting)
I once heard a bit on the rise of science against religion. The crux of the argument was that science should be viewed and approached with an eye more toward humanism.
In the Dark Ages, God was viewed as someone who controlled everything. If something bad happened, there was a reason. If something good happened, there was a reason. Priests where the ones who understood that pattern, and each of us had a friend looking down benevolently (overall) to take care of us.
The rise of science began to make the world a hostile, unpredictable place. Of course, science must studied, information gathered, and one day man could make sense of his (now inscrutable) destiny and place in the universe.
I believe the argument went that this shift in thinking, from having a plan to not having any has caused a lot of strife. Of course, we're more rational (some of us) but this does not change the fact that we often feel alone and insignificant, whirling through the ether.
The solution was to try and find a way to help people view science as less about cold calculation, but more as a friend, a helpful and predictable Cosmic Hand that doesn't flip us off, but rather is working behind the scenes, as God once did, to keep everything working in The Bigger Plan.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Insightful)
Particularly given that from a neuroscience perspective, "Mind" and "Soul" might as well be synonymous.
Actually, scientifically speaking "soul" is not synonymous to much else than "religious mumbo jumbo".
It's a redundant hypothesis that doesn't really explain anything, it doesn't provide a single experimentable prediction and it's beyond observations by definition. You might need it for your faith, but science sure as hell has no use for it.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Insightful)
When they can isolate the "Bing" moment (the point at which neurological function gives rise to experiential phenomenon) then we can put down the idea of a soul entirely, not before.
No, we can put it down right now. No one has adequately defined "soul," so there is no reason to believe one exists. There is no "bing" moment (is that a technical term?). The differentiation of our experience from our physical bodies is an illusion.
Just because you perceive something to be so doesn't mean that is the way it is. If you think the mind, soul, and body are differentiable, provide some evidence.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:4, Insightful)
If you're going to make objective assertions about reality without adequate justification, I'm going to pigeonhole you as someone who is capable of and willing to make objective assertions about reality without adequate justification. I don't suffer fools gladly. Even if you're only deceiving yourself, you're still creating a negative environment.
This stale approach to thinking and life has to be shouted down at every opportunity for the benefit of those whose minds are changed, and to improve the opportunities of people both young and old to thrive in an environment of intellectual integrity.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Funny)
As far I know, not only religious people use the term "soul". Psychologists use it too,
Not to mention musicians.
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Interesting)
Anyone who believes that they will meet (and remember) their deceased family members when they get to Heaven. Anyone who thinks that they will still have and/or know their own name when they get to Heaven. Anyone who believes in ghosts. So probably about 80% of Americans (that's not an attack, just an estimate).
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Re:I just summoned some 'memories' (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, a couple of grams. Of the exhaled air...
Yeah, kind of like when you take a photo. After a little while, the eyes start drying out too, removing any sparks left.
Now hold on there, sheriff. There's no way to prove that they didn't have the information long before they told you. Hoaxes like that gain the involved lots of publicity and possibly money. Don't you think some people are willing to do it?
If you want to see, you will see.
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Re:This is your Brain (Cell) on Drugs Ads? (Score:5, Funny)
I'm hoping this six pack will wipe out 3rd grade. Man I hated that Tommy Butler douche bag.
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Re:Self portriat (Score:5, Interesting)
What does a memory of what a memory being recovered look like?
I sometimes have epileptic seizures which make me spontaneously remember past events. Sometimes it causes me to recall events which may not have happened. I am literally processing garbage data.
The seizure often interferes with the recording of memory, probably because it is messing with the replay of memory at the same time, so it is difficult to report exactly what the experience consists of after the event, beyond a simple outline.
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Re:Wow (Score:4, Informative)
A few years back a /.er told of recovering from a seizure like their brain rebooting, senses coming online one-by-one. I wish I could find the link now.
That might be a good way to describe it, but it is probably not close to what actually happens. Long term memory is one of the most vulnerable brain functions. It is the first to be lost when anything goes wrong and the last to come back.
My recollection of recovering from a grand mal seizure is that of vague memories early on and better memories later. That is consistent with long term memory starting to come back. But the spotty early memories include myself apparently behaving normally: talking to people, etc. So simple functions may come back quote quickly.
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Re:Self portriat (Score:5, Funny)
...according to trusty old Wikipedia there's no way to distinguish between a false memory and a true one.
Sure there is, just check the revision history and talk pages.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
A core dump...
Re:Cool but... (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:One step closer to to the upload ! (Score:5, Funny)
Way out in the water. See it swimming?
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