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Home Science Under Attack In Massachusetts
Posted by
kdawson
on Tue Aug 12, 2008 01:10 PM
from the and-the-yellow-phthalate-too dept.
from the and-the-yellow-phthalate-too dept.
An anonymous reader tips a guest posting up on the MAKE Magazine blog by the author of the Illustrated Guide to Home Chemistry Experiments. It seems that authorities in Massachusetts have raided a home chemistry lab, apparently without a warrant, and made off with all of its contents. Here's the local article from the Worcester Telegram & Gazette. "Victor Deeb, a retired chemist who lives in Marlboro, has finally been allowed to return to his Fremont Street home, after Massachusetts authorities spent three days ransacking his basement lab and making off with its contents. Deeb is not accused of making methamphetamine or other illegal drugs. He's not accused of aiding terrorists, synthesizing explosives, nor even of making illegal fireworks. Deeb fell afoul of the Massachusetts authorities for... doing experiments... Pamela Wilderman, the code enforcement officer for [the Massachusetts town of] Marlboro stated, 'I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.' Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down.'"
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Submission: Home Science Under Attack In Massachusetts? by Anonymous Coward
[+]
How Regulations Hamper Chemical Hobbyists 610 comments
An anonymous reader writes "Chemical & Engineering News just ran this story that relates how government regulations create a terribly restrictive atmosphere for people who do chemistry as a hobby. (A related story was previously posted.)" The article gives some examples of why hamfisted regulations are harmful even to those who aren't doing the chemistry themselves: "Hobby chemists will tell you that home labs have been the source of some of chemistry's greatest contributions. Charles Goodyear figured out how to vulcanize rubber with the same stove that his wife used to bake the family's bread. Charles Martin Hall discovered the economical electrochemical process for refining aluminum from its ore in a woodshed laboratory near his family home. A plaque outside Sir William Henry Perkin's Cable Street residence in London notes that the chemist 'discovered the first aniline dyestuff, March 1856, while working in his home laboratory on this site and went on to found science-based industry.'"
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The More Things Change (Score:5, Informative)
Re:The More Things Change (Score:5, Funny)
After all, who knows when you might accidentally violate the laws of equivalent exchange and lose an arm...
Parent
Re:The More Things Change (Score:5, Insightful)
We all do chemistry on a daily basis, the difference is that we usually don't do it as our daily plan. Brush your teeth, take a bath and even breathing. Cooking is actually an advanced version of chemistry.
The area of chemistry is so wide that it's in no way possible to ban it all. And some people are stupid enough to think that it's dangerous to create huge soap bubbles or analyze the water yourself.
Parent
Is anyone surprised? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is what the environment of hysteria is doing to the US.
Who exactly is terrorizing us these days? Seems like our "elected officials" just want us to be scared all the time so we won't really think about what's going on.
Call the FBI? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:5, Informative)
Indeed. Massachusetts, allow me to introduce you to the fourth amendment:
This fellow needs to make sure that the local authorities are smacked down. HARD.
Parent
Re:Call the FBI? (Score:5, Insightful)
This fellow needs to make sure that the local authorities are smacked down. HARD.
Yeah, and the next time he has a run-in with the authorities they'll find out he's a drug dealer [illinoistimes.com]. because you don't have to sell or aven posess drugs for the cops to find them on you.
When something you can plant is illegal, anybody can go to prison, no matter how innocent they are.
Parent
Chemicals (Score:5, Insightful)
There are regulations about how much [of various chemicals] you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of.
Depending on the specifics of what this guy's dealing with, he may be subject to rules regarding the safe disposal of certain chemicals, etc.
Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Informative)
According to the Telegram article, the house had a fire in a second floor air conditioning unit, which was responded to by the fire department. It was then that the fire department found the lab in the basement.
Parent
Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:Chemicals (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
They'll find something (Score:5, Insightful)
just another thing going wrong ... (Score:5, Interesting)
Although he could be using his home chemistry lab to do illegal things, the government should not be allowed to enter and seize on the ability to do wrong, only on the reasonable suspicion.
If the ability to cause problems was a legitimate reason to stop someone from practicing their hobby, then what about gun enthusiasts? What about drunks? And what about people with cars?
I don't care if you have a home chemistry set, just don't blow up my house.
Once you infringe on my rights, you're in the wrong - and that applies equally to the government!
He didn't conform! (Score:5, Interesting)
So his ''crime'' was to do something slightly different from the rest of the population.
Then I got to thinking: What is normal, what does Mr average do in his spare time ? Does this mean that anyone who does anything except: watch TV, visit shopping malls or go to the pub is weird and so under suspicion ?
I think that I'll put my walking boots on and think about it on a long stroll .... drat - that'll put me under the microscope :-)
The EAA had the same fight. (Score:5, Interesting)
The EAA had the same fight about home builders. :)
For those that don't know the EAA represnts people that build their own airplanes or restore old ones. At least one town made it illegal. The EAA usually fights such things and often wins.
Too bad there isn't an EAA for Chemistry.
BTW I am a member of the EAA
BS editorializing (Score:5, Informative)
"Allow me to translate Ms. Wilderman's words into plain English: 'Mr. Deeb hasn't actually violated any law or regulation that I can find, but I don't like what he's doing because I'm ignorant and irrationally afraid of chemicals, so I'll abuse my power to steal his property and shut him down."
appears nowhere in the linked article, yet kdawson has chosen to sensationalize by adding his own words and making it look as if they were part of the article.
In fact the article actually states:
"Mr. Deebâ(TM)s home lab likely violated the regulations of many state and local departments, although officials have not yet announced any penalties. "
Hobbyists Less Trusted than Corporations? (Score:5, Insightful)
This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation.
I find it troubling that hobbyists are less trusted than corporations (assuming that these same experiments, performed by a corporation, would pose no problem - which I think the above quote pretty clearly implies). First, it is a really stupid idea from the American economy standpoint - we've made a lot of hay in this country's history on garage hackers (think: personal computer, for example). Second, what exactly makes corporations (which are made up of individuals) more trustworthy than non-corporate individuals? Timothy McVeigh? USAMRIID Anthrax. This is utterly stupid, and clearly the result of a panic'd mind more concerned with a pretense of safety than with the success of this great nation.
Ah, I love the smell of flamebait in the afternoon (Score:5, Insightful)
Really, the above is a bit far from the inflamitory accusations of ironshod goosestepping that the blog author insinuates.
There is a difference between having a hobby bench and doing 'science' and running a chem lab. One is harmless, the other is only harmless when you take the proper safety percautions.
About to start some shit! (Score:5, Funny)
—Men in Black
What happened != what submitter says happened (Score:5, Insightful)
According to the article:
A fire broke out on the 2nd floor of the subject's home. In the process of responding to this, firefighters found a LOT of chemicals, about 1500 different ones to be exact. The home was not zoned to be a chemical lab, so doing so much chemical work there violated zoning laws.
So while it's quite fun to blame "evil" governments, had a fire not broken out nothing would have happened. And nobody who's railing about the government seems to have any smart ideas on how a home user is going to properly dispose of chemical waste in a legal and environmentally sound way. For all we know he was just dumping stuff down the toilet, which probably isn't legal.
I would like a true discussion of this. (Score:5, Informative)
I contacted Ms. Wilderman, who actually answered her phone. http://www.marlborough-ma.gov/Gen/MarlboroughMA_Inspection/index [marlborough-ma.gov]
Pamela A. Wilderman Code Enforcement Officer 508 460-3765
She stated that the fire department was called for an apparent fire on the 2nd floor of Mr. Deeb's home. This allowed the firemen entry into the house. Upon further investigation (of the basement for a 2nd floor fire) the firemen discovered the chemicals and brought in the authorities.
Ms. Wilderman said "We have zoning laws for this purpose, the firefighters were called into what they thought was a single family residence only to discover unmarked chemicals in the basement, he had a chemistry lab down there, in an area zoned residential". I informed her that I had an electronics lab, and beer brewing equipment in mine to which she made the comment "I bet your neighbors are thrilled about that". Of course I don't think my neighbors even know because they all mind their own business.
Anyway this brings up a series of questions. Were the chemicals truly unmarked? Mr. Deebs is a retired chemist, surely he would practice some type of protocol. Second, if his activity is not illegal where is the justification of not only seizing the items, but then stating they will be disposed of. Will Mr. Deebs be reimbursed. What if they went into the basement and discovered a person to hand loads his own ammunition? It is a perfectly legal hobby practiced by shooters all over the country. Would they have seized those items?
Finally, I would love to hear Mr. Deebs story on this. His reputation is being destroyed over a simple hobby.
Home Science not Under Attack (Score:5, Insightful)
Even the newspaper article linked by the person making the sensational claim doesn't support the claim. The story appears in several places and the facts in each don't support the thesis that "Home Science is Under Attack".
The chemist in question had a fire in his house. While the fire department was responding to the fire, they happened upon the lab with an unusually large array of chemicals and equipment. They asked the man what he was doing with them and he noted that he was a retired chemist, doing his own development at home now, and was even patenting and marketing some of the things he developed.
The fire marshall was concerned that the lab might pose a fire hazard and contacted the DEP per the usual protocol, and they went through and checked it out. They notified the town of the situation, who noted that he was doing commercial chemical R&D (by his own admission, he was) in a residential area in violation of applicable zoning laws. The DEP was required to "close" the lab and clean up any chemicals for which there's a prescribed disposal procedure (e.g., you're not supposed to pour large quantities of it down the sink).
The guy broke zoning laws and he got caught because of an unrelated fire in his house. That's it.
Re:I miss freedom (Score:5, Funny)
That's why we now have freedom fries. So don't worry, you'll still be able to get your USDA recommended amount of freedom.
Parent
America used to be #1 (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, a bunch of silly fools that never took chemistry even in college are doing their best to outlaw what every intelligent child in the 60s and 70s did for fun.
As a result, the US has not been doing groundbreaking chemistry in over a decade.
Granted, computers are a big lure, but chemistry is the basis of our industry. We need to ENCOURAGE kids and adults to do chemistry, not prevent it with idiotic, foolish laws.
If it is not more dangerous than fertilizer and diesel fuel, or styrofoam and gasoline, than it should be legal for a 16 year old kid to buy in the mail, without a license.
Anythinge else is rank hipocracy and stupidity.
P.S. I am not recommending a 12 year old do explosive experiments unsupervised, but I hate to tell you, THEY DO IT ANYWAY. They just go and get an aerosole can and a lighter, instead of ordering a kit.
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Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Interesting)
My dad took my chemistry set away when I almost blew the house up. But this 4th of july my old friend Mike's seventeen year old son showed me a brand new way of blowing stuff up; it's in one of my NSFW journals. Anyway, put a little "Works" toilet bowl cleaner in a plastic bottle, but a strip of aluminum foil in it, screw on the cap, shake it, toss it down and walk away and it waill react violently and noisily, louder than a shotgun blast.
The kids are indeed doing chemistry.
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Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:America used to be #1 (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem is that the stupid people aren't dying anymore.
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Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly the only solution to the Hyper red and Hyper blue is to shine a lot of Hyper white light on them. These "security and Fraidycat freaks go scattering when they have a bright light shining on them.
I really hope someone uncovers Pamela Wilderman personal information and posts it so that everyone here can voice their concerns to her on her home phone, email, work phone, cellphone as well as other Police officials that did not right away reprimand her and fire her for home invasion.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Informative)
Pamela Wilderman, Secretary
Phone: (508) 460-3769
Fax: (508) 624-6504
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly. The far left and the far right both have exactly the same goal: To tell others how to live their lives. They only way they differ is in how they think people's lives should be lived.
Interestingly enough, people I meet from both sides are typically keen on telling you how they think others should live, but not too keen on being told how to live themselves.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh shut up, it's one small town's small-time comptroller, not a vast conspiracy by hyperblue states.
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Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Funny)
Well Richard, it seems my fellow Texans have been slacking! Let me just take a few minutes to tell you about Jesus, and the wonderful sacrifice he made for you...
Only joking, of course. I'm not from Texas.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
On the other hand, you aren't allowed to own laboratory glassware in TX without a permit from the state and inspections from the cops....
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The actual law (Score:5, Informative)
You had to make me look, as I was quite surprised about that law. But here it is: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/criminal_law_enforcement/narcotics/narcprecursor.htm [state.tx.us]
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Funny)
I live in Houston, deep in the "Bible Belt", where there is a church every half mile.
Is that all? Here in South Carolina, I really think it is a status symbol to have your own church, because there are 3 on every corner.
Parent
Re:And they say ... (Score:5, Insightful)
the old myth that the R's are anti-big government or fiscally conservative is sadly outdated.
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Re:What's the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, I bet they will slap their wrists and say they are very very sorry and it'll never happen again too.
I have a computer. One of those new fancy technology machines that store "files" on it. The local cops should come take it because I may or may not have "illegal" files on it. Once they analyze it they should possibly give it back depending on how they feel. Or they could just keep it. Oh they should also do this without obtaining one of those pesky warrant things. That will help save them time. It won't bother me at all because it's not an invasion of my privacy if it keeps the world safe from evil.
Parent
Re:What's the big deal? (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, they don't know a law he violated, they just knew that we have lots of laws and they disliked what he did so they investigated.
They even CONFISCATED STUFF without yet finding any real law breakage. How would you like it if someone said, you know your car is full of tons of dangerous explosives, then they confiscate and say "We likely think we MIGHT find something illegal on it."
Would you be satisified if they returned it three days later? Would you be satisfied if they returned MOST of it 3 days later, but kept parts of it saying "We haven't definitely found anything illegal yet, but we want to keep looking?"
A reasonable response would have been to let the police look around for ONE HOUR. If they want to take stuff, or even stay for more than one hour, they should have got a warrant.
There are a ton of 'not really laws'. that the government does not enforce unless they dislike you. I won't bother to mention the president and his little "arrested but not charged for cocaine" thing.
I WILL bother to mention the fact that large chemical companies ROUTINELY break the law and no one does anything about it. They get a pass from an inspector after a promise of "we'll fix it later".
The citizen was trying to be nice and proove he did nothing wrong. I'm sure he expected a quick once over and nothing. He knew he was doing nothing seriously wrong.
But instead he got shafted by a stupid government
Parent
We make your choices for you (Score:5, Insightful)
What's the big deal?
This is yet another example of the end of freedom, that's what. This is one set of people deciding that you are making the wrong choices with your freedom and they need to make all your choices for you from now on.
They want to choose
- your hobby,
- what games you can play,
- whether you can smoke,
- what you can drink,
- what you can eat,
- what kinds of cars you're allowed to drive,
- how fast,
- where you can live,
- how you celebrate the 4th of July,
- how much money you can make,
- how much money you can pay your employees,
- how you raise your children,
- what jokes you can tell at work,
- the precise mix of fuel in your gas tank,
- what health care you are to be allowed,
- who you can rent housing to,
- what's on your cable TV,
- and what days you can water your lawn.
What's the big deal? Why don't we all just make exactly the choices you might make and then we'll never have a problem?
And the worst thing: the only "solution" people talk about is getting "person C" to be in charge of making everyone's choices for them instead of "person D".
Parent
Re:What's the big deal? (Score:5, Informative)
Read TFA (the original article, not the sensationalist link):
Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home.
(emphasis mine)
The discovery wasn't a random home invasion, simply the result of doing their job. Much like police can bust you for murder if they see a dead body in your back seat after pulling you over for speeding, the firefighters reported a potentially unsafe violation of zoning and other laws.
Now if it turns out no laws were broken and they still destroy his property, that's screwed up.
Parent
Re:How Dismal (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder how long before people in possession of scary "hacking software and equipment" are subjected to similar intrusions? Welcome to the NewUSA, where all knowledge is classified.
This has already happened once to a friend of mine who collects large systems and does component-level development.
The local HOA lady called the cops because he had so many computers that "He must be doing something illega! Look at all those wiiiires!"
Parent
Re:Typical (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.telegram.com/article/20080809/NEWS/808090323/1007/NEWS05 [telegram.com]
"Firefighters found more than 1,500 vials, jars, cans, bottles and boxes in the basement Tuesday afternoon, after they responded to an unrelated fire in an air conditioner on the second floor of the home.
Vessels of chemicals were all over the furniture and the floor, authorities said. The ensuing investigation involved a state hazardous materials team, fire and police officials, health officials, environmental officials and code enforcement officials. The Deebs were told to stay in a hotel while the slew of officials investigated and emptied the basement. "
Parent
Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Informative)
When the officer says, "This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation," he's implying a zoning violation. It can be answered with, "This is not what we consider to be a customary neighborhood nuisance." Zoning laws should protect people from things like junk yards, car dealerships and noisy manufacturing. Going after this man is a stretch of those intentions.
It's like anti FUD with you people. He broke a zoning law. If you read the article, particularly the part where it says...
Pamela A. Wilderman, Marlboro's code enforcement officer, said Mr. Deeb was doing scientific research and development in a residential area, which is a violation of zoning laws. "It is a residential home in a residential neighborhood," she said. "This is Mr. Deeb's hobby. He's still got bunches of ideas. I think Mr. Deeb has crossed a line somewhere. This is not what we would consider to be a customary home occupation. ⦠There are regulations about how much you're supposed to have, how it's detained, how it's disposed of."
...you'd see that he had *WAY* too much stuff in his home AND was breaking the zoning laws by conducting scientific research in a residential neighborhood. I hate the government too, but what I hate more is idiots that spread half-truths. This is one of the latter cases. Print the whole story and it seems like a no brainer, but print half a story, and it feeds the no-brainers.
Parent
Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes, it does look like a zoning problem. But the typical first response to a zoning issue is the issuance of an injunction, not the seizure of large amounts of property. A reasonable response would be a court order to move it out of his house within 30 days.
Parent
Re:Zoning gone wild. (Score:5, Informative)
Not all zoning is dumb. In this case, with as large as chemical fuel load he had in the home, if his house went up it would likely take out the other houses nearby. Zoning helps ensure that when you work on work that is potentially flammable/explosive you minimize the risk to nearby objects.
I AM a fire safety researcher, and I know just how flammable most chemicals can be, especially since it looks like he was doing organic chemistry, which is what I have my doctorate in. I assure you his house (and no one's is) is rated to address the fire risk that would have eventually happened. The fact that he had a fire in his AC tells me that all the fumes from his operation were starting to condense in there and then got activated by a spark in the fan motor.
Since I'm a chemist I'm not happy with how he got treated, but still, he should have known better. While I greatly admire the older chemists for their ability to just tinker, research and work non-stop in the lab, there's a reason why the death rate among chemists has dropped, and its because we don't work like this guy does.
Parent
Re:protest by buying his book (Score:5, Informative)
Except the book is not from the man in the article, it's from the blog author that's stirring up the mess by acting as if this was a big deal while plugging his book.
Parent