NASA Builds a Cheap Standardized Space Probe 123
TangAddict writes "Dr. Alan Weston, who previously invented bungee jumping, led a team of scientists at NASA Ames Research Center to build a $4 million spacecraft in less than two years. The Modular Common Spacecraft Bus is designed to accept payloads of up to 50kg. and can be used for a variety of missions including a rendezvous with asteroids, orbiting Earth or Mars, and landing on the moon. When NASA officials saw the first flight test, they offered Weston and his team $80 million to use their design for the LADEE mission, which will gather dust and atmosphere samples from the moon in 2011."
Is it big enough for a dead Vulcan to fit in? (Score:5, Funny)
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Pandaemonium (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Pandaemonium (Score:5, Funny)
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All technology is designed to gather dust... eventually. It's called 'functional obsolescence'. The breakthrough development that separates this technology from previous technologies (such as the C64 in your attic and the 64MB thumb drive lodged somewhere behind your monitor) is that this gathers dust right away. Since this gathers dust virtually immediately, you can theoretically sell dust gatherers to consumers at a vastly increased rate.
So what you're saying is that we gather huge clouds of solar dust and create Earth 2, then use E2 to manufacture more dust gathering devices (infinite creation loop). In all reality, if the probes were used for this, would they one day be worshiped as providers, or feared as they gather the planets much to close, and start another star right next to Wallstreet? I guess this depends on how much time the coder took writing the AI. Are we thinking Skynet, or Rosie from the Jetsons'?
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(Think Spaceballs)
$4million$ (Score:5, Insightful)
So what's a square dollar worth these days?
(this _is_ news for nerds)
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There's a difference between becoming dust and gathering dust.
Re:Pandaemonium (Score:5, Informative)
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Umm, hmmmm ... (Score:2)
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Re:$4 million to make it work... (Score:4, Insightful)
NASA does have the first human to visit and return from another (tries to find the word)...the moon...
They do have an impressive roster though, the Saturn V, the Shuttle, etc... but most of their accomplishments can't really even be claimed as "American" (as in the 'United States Of') because most of their key employees were/are form other countries... they are kind of like Microsoft (or any other large company) in that way, we'll buy them so we can say its ours...
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How funny. USSR AND America did have the same group of key ppl; the Germans from WWII. The difference is that USSR forced most of theirs to work as outsiders, while in the US, ALL choose to be American citizens. Big difference there.
With that said, I agree with your first statement. The USSR owns the majority of the firsts. Of course, none of it was by much. In fact, USSR took numerous shortcuts so that they could beat America.
Re:$4 million to make it work... (Score:4, Funny)
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The scientists in Russia was of course FORCED to work, and the scientists in USA were happy to do it!
I hope you misread his post because if you didn't, you intentionally distorted it. He said the formerly Nazi German Scientists were forced to work. There was a huge difference between a captured scientist from a defeated country and a native one, in the eyes of the Soviets.
And yes, many German scientists were seeking out American soldiers toward the end of WWII because they feared what the Russians would make them do.
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"Wernher von Braun used Goddard's plans from various journals and incorporated them into the building of the Aggregat 4 (A-4) series of rockets, better known as the V-2.[6] In 1963, von Braun reflected on the history of rocketry, and said of Goddard's work: "His rockets
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Not just dust, Moon dust (Score:1)
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LADEE (Score:3, Funny)
Re:LADEE (Score:4, Informative)
The summary is incorrect - Weston was not offered $80 million for the design, NASA simply wanted to use their design for an $80 million dollar mission.
From TFA:
Which makes far more sense - why would NASA pay money for a design that was developed with its own money?Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I thought there was something funny there. $4 million spacecraft. $80 million. =>20 spacecraft? Unlikely.
But what you said makes more sense.
Of course, I could have read TFA myself, but why bother duplicate effort when someone else has already read it?
I call this philosophy Slashdot OpenRTFA.
HAL.
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In government-ese it just makes more sense to pay $80M for something you already bought once fo
I have a lots of projects that just collect dust. (Score:2, Funny)
Bullshit! (Score:2, Informative)
Yeah, and I invented bicycle jumping... and I was a mere 7 years old...
He may have helped (along with some others) re-invent it, or modernize it... but he did not invent it...
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Re:Bullshit! (Score:5, Informative)
So the article is slightly inaccurate and perhaps should have said: "Dr. Alan Weston, who previously help pioneer modern bungee jumping".
And yes wikipedia is my firend
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Re:Bullshit! (Score:5, Informative)
Article:
When high-ranking NASA officials saw a flight test, they were impressed enough to include the team in an $80 million dollar mission to the moon.
Slashdot story:
When NASA officials saw the first flight test, they offered Weston and his team $80 million to use their design
Ask Weston if he can tell the difference
what took the so long? (Score:5, Insightful)
Two words: (Score:5, Funny)
Try 30 years ago (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:what took the so long? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:what took the so long? (Score:5, Insightful)
They've started with it, and subsequently dropped it, multiple times. Mostly because this is one of those ideas that seems great on paper, but doesn't actually work out too well in real life.
Some probes need 3 axis stabilization, others can simply spin, yet others can use gravity gradient. Some probes need to dissipate a lot of heat from their instruments, others much less. One probe has a handful of instruments each the size of your PC desktop, another probe has a single instrument the size of a small car. Etc... Etc...
The number of possible permutations is simply too large to be accommodated by any single standard bus, or even a reasonable number of standardized buses. To get an idea of the scale of the problem - imagine trying to base every wheeled vehicle on the road from an 18-wheeler down to a motor scooter off of a single standard bus
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It is only when launching a sattelite becomes more affordable that it starts to make sense and accept some compromises with a generic platform.
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Re:what took the so long? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Finally using some common sense (Score:3, Interesting)
If only this "lets make the best with what we have while someone else tries to get us more" approach would filter through to more government bodies/groups.
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Pork belly politics doesn't work this way.
And yet, NASA regularly uses common designs (Score:2)
Etc, etc, etc.
The simple fact is, that NASA does tend to use common arch. but it also has it downfall. THe original Mars Polar Lander and the aborted Mars Surveyor 2001 Lander had common arch. Of course the 2001 lander became the new Pheonix, that is inbound to mars as we write.
Even this probe will only be used for a few missions, to as many as
NASA cutting costs? Hardly. (Score:5, Interesting)
This, of course, is crazy. If they were to demand blueprints from the contractor for the first model of a particular spacecraft and then make those blueprints available to the general public then, the next time they want to contract for a similar spacecraft, they'll find there are a whole mess of companies lining up to bid.. and to bid very low indeed - as they don't have to spend all that money designing a basic spacecraft - they don't have to re-invent the wheel.
As the bids are so much lower, NASA could then start asking for more capable spacecraft.. and quickly a publicly owned repository of blueprints would be built up that all the various contractors could work with.
But instead, we get million dollar spacecraft from the same 3 contractors, over and over again. No standardization, no spin-offs for other purposes.
Re:NASA cutting costs? Hardly. (Score:5, Informative)
In addition, here is a site that people should be aware of. It is a database of all the NASA tech that has been spun off into private industry [nasa.gov]. For instance, JPL developed shake testers to test spacecraft and instruments for their ability to withstand launch stress. Now JPL buys their shake testers from a an outside company.
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Can I have that job? I like chocolate, strawberry, and marshmallow. I will even eat shakes made with oreos or candy bar chunks.
I think I qualify as an "outside company"
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Not everything in this world is the result of a conspiracy. There are national security concerns for anything involving space flight. Any release of technology has to be approved by an export control officer.
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So let me get this straight (Score:1)
Modular? (Score:1)
Armadillo Aerospace spent $3.5M for real rockets (Score:2)
http://armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home/News?news_id=357 [armadilloaerospace.com]
$4M for some scuba gear with ambition or $3.5M for the real thing? Hmm...
replacement for the standard Imperial Probe Droid? (Score:1)
Running Linux ? (Score:2)
I don't want to brag, but... (Score:2)
"The Modular Common Spacecraft Bus is designed to accept payloads of up to 50kg.
I've taken dumps bigger than that.
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Bungee cord for return trip? (Score:1)
Still no better method than rockets? (Score:2)
Maybe a combination of balloons for the first Kms and some kind of land based laser for the rest?
I don't know, but rockets seem kind of old technology. Like finding musketeers in Civ when you already have tanks.
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The west handed technology to China on a plate (Score:3, Informative)
Not such a great idea. (Score:5, Insightful)
In general, it's poor economy.
You see you have the fixed cost of the rocket, launchpad, and launch team. Many tens of millions of dollars. Even if you drove the spacecraft cost down to zero, it won't affect the total very much.
Meanwhile all the cost is at risk if the spacecraft fails.
In general it's penny wise and pound foolish to economize on the spacecraft.
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You see you have the fixed cost of the rocket, launchpad, and launch team. Many tens of millions of dollars. Even if you drove the spacecraft cost down to zero, it won't affect the total very much.
I don't see why you make that claim. According to Wikipedia, the cost of developing, building, and launching the Mars Exploration Rover and running it for the first 90 days was $820 million. They got a deal on two Delta II launches for $50 million each [www.mars.tv] and missions operations and scientific processing was $75 million. The cost of the launchpad is bundled into that of the rocket. So we have $175 million (including missions ops) instead of $820 million, if the rovers were provided free. I've looked at other
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That is, if you get the same reliability with going the cheaper route. Which if you remember, circumstantially, did not work out so well for Hubble.
Another point I forgot to mention is the opportunity cost-- if you can only launch every 18 months to hit Mars, there's a disproportionate cost to launching something that may take 18 months to fail
They want to analyze _what_? (Score:1)
Boy, those Apollo astronauts might actually have been up there, what with the waving flag and all!
[Readers are strongly advised to turn their irony detectors on]
Wait just a darn minute. (Score:1)
Take this statement...
and this one...
and put them together.
Sounds to me like NASA bought a design created by NASA researchers for a mere 20x the cost to make it in the first place?
What the hell?
No Payload, No Spacecraft (Score:5, Interesting)
A common satellite bus is a good thing, but it does not constitute a viable spacecraft. Like a transit bus that never carries passengers, it serves no useful purpose. The payload has always been the driving element in any satellite or probe, in schedule, budget and trade-offs. And rightfully so IMHO. I believe that's why a common bus hasn't been succesful in the past. Both NASA and the DoD have tried, but the needs of the payload outweigh the needs of the bus.
The Space Ground Link System, SGLS (note to self: submit wikipedia page in copious spare time) is analagous to a common satellite bus protocol at the physical to network layers and provides some commonality of bus structure for DoD satellites. The upper protocol layers vary but the foundation is the same.
Ask anyone who's worked in the essential, but unglamorous world of satellite control. Their biggest problem is upgrading the control network quickly enough to satisfy all the new requirements of the next big launch. New datalink frequencies, stronger encryption, faster throughput rates, etc. All the while, they have to maintain the capability to control and pamper the oldest bird flying and monitor everything in between.
It's not a bad thing that satellites outlive their design life, but it has to be considered when operating and budgeting for the control network.
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The payload has always been the driving element in any satellite or probe, in schedule, budget and trade-offs. And rightfully so IMHO. I believe that's why a common bus hasn't been succesful in the past. Both NASA and the DoD have tried, but the needs of the payload outweigh the needs of the bus.
Mission is the driving element. Payload is dictated by what you're trying to do. As I see it, with the traditional one-off designs, the primary mission is to sink or invest (depending on your point of view) a bunch of money into R&D groups rather than deploy payload. There isn't a mission that couldn't benefit from economies of scale, namely, making multiple copies (in excess of the usual one or two) of the probe and using all of them.
Is it spherical? (Score:4, Funny)
NASA License (Score:2)
I hope NASA is making money off the piss-me-off Accord ads at the beginning of the videos. If not, NASA needs to release their videos under a creative commons license.
It bothers me that a tax supported institution is giving "exclusive" video to Wired so it can run ads in front of it. Ads in the story is OK because Wired wrote the story. I didn't bother reading the story so I didn't bother reading their print ads. The vids were all I wanted to see and I didn't watch any after the first because of the ad
Its actually all been done before. (Score:5, Interesting)
At least by 1990, NASA, DOD and Fairchild/Orbital used to run a system called "Multi Mission Modular Satellite".
So what have they done? For 4 million they built a prototype that will never work in space? Notice that when they were added to some other project the total real project price was $80M - and I'm not so sure that includes launch vehicle (ie the rocket).
Back in the day, the radio receiver (arguably the most critical part of a satellite) was $2 million all by itself. It had to be radiation hardened (cosmic rays) and work flawlessly for 5+ years. If something really went wrong, the receiver would send the pulses that actually re-booted or reset the other on board computers.
Also satellites that have instruments, like the hubble, need to point very precisely at stars - the instruments to do this are very expensive, the controls that orient the satellites are relatively cheap - but you have to buy extra (redundancy).
Imagine this, the Hubble Space Telescope has to point at a spot in space for long time - once for 1 million seconds ( Hubble Site [hubblesite.org]) During that period of time, the solar arrays, antennas etc. couldn't move because even the ultra smooth stepper motors they use would have shaken the spacecraft enough to blur the image.
That being said, there are 100s, if not 1000s of neat little projects that potentially save NASA money - like using standard Internet protocols to talk to spacecraft (tweak the timeouts a bit) - which would mean ground stations would use pretty much standard router hardware vs. custom stuff. It good to see some of these ideas get the exposure they deserve.
However, most satellites are designed with requirements for the instrumentation. The rest of the satellite is designed around those requirements. Unless you have a very flexible design in your spacecraft bus, the scientific part of the mission might be compromised.
So this lander might work - how many g's on impact? (err... landing). What is the success chance? Do I take my $50million instrument and put it on a $10 million lander that has a 30% chance of success? Or do I build a $20 million lander that has an 80% chance? or a $30 Million that has 95% chance? If I pick wrong, I'm sure that I will not get another $100 million to fly the mission again. Perhaps a lifetime of research goes down the toilet...
Your Tax $ (Score:1)
Dust (Score:2)
Uh Invented bungee jumping? (Score:1)
He used modern materials to improve what is called vine jumping.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bungee_jumping [wikipedia.org]
"In the 1950s David Attenborough and a BBC film crew brought back footage of the "land divers" of Pentecost Island in Vanuatu, young men who jumped from tall wooden platforms with vines tied to their ankles as a test of courage."
ESA's approach (Score:2)
Welcome to the nineteenth century (Score:2)
Um, wow. So NASA has finally caught up to nineteenth-century industrial design techniques.
Let's start a campaign to make it open source (Score:1)
But if it is released under a copylefted open licence then private companies can modify and use a proven design for all sorts of projects, and they would have to release their designs as well.
If the basic design is good this could well snowball to real (and open) advances in the space industry.
Armadillo Style (Score:1)
I have to wonder how flight software developed around a mock-up using pressurized air is going to fair when migrated to a live system with a conventional rocket engine. Especially the fact that they're developing the software indoors. How will they test/account for wind shear and other weather effects?
In 18 months they've created a f
what id gas cost $100,000 per galon? (Score:3, Interesting)
Now imagine that gas cost not $4 per galon but $100,000 per galon. At that price it would be worth building a special car for every trip and then throwing the car away after just one trip. This is what NASA does because the operational and luach cost is so much higher than any other cost
NASA also works off a fix mass budget. If the bus is 1 pound to heavy that means one pound less fuel can be loaded which translates into reduced lifetime in space or maybe the one pound saved could be used in improve an instrument.
In effect NASA is payinf more then $100K per galon for gas. I think it costs about a million dollors a mile to get to space, at those prices it pays to custom design each spacecraft to it s optimized for each mission
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Is this the start of warp drive? (Score:2)
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For example, <a href="www.example.com">l