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Monsanto's Harvest of Fear

Posted by kdawson on Mon Apr 14, 2008 07:06 AM
from the good-business-to-sue-your-customers-boy-howdy dept.
Cognitive Dissident writes "Intellectual property thuggery is not restricted to the IT and entertainment industries. The May 2008 edition of Vanity Fair carries a major feature article on the mafiaa-like tactics of Monsanto in its pursuit of total domination of various facets of agribusiness. First in GM seeds with its 'Roundup Ready' crops designed to sell more of its Roundup herbicide, and more recently in milk production with rBGH designed to squeeze more milk out of individual cows, Monsanto has been resorting to increasingly over-the-top tactics to prevent what it sees as infringement or misrepresentation of its biotechnology. As with other forms of IP tyranny, the point is not really to help the public but to consolidate corporate power. Quotes: 'Some compare Monsanto's hard-line approach to Microsoft's zealous efforts to protect its software from pirates. At least with Microsoft the buyer of a program can use it over and over again. But farmers who buy Monsanto's seeds can't even do that.' and '"I don't know of a company that chooses to sue its own customer base," says Joseph Mendelson, of the Center for Food Safety. "It's a very bizarre business strategy." But it's one that Monsanto manages to get away with, because increasingly it's the dominant vendor in town.' Sound familiar?"
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  • Pure Evil (Score:5, Interesting)

    by EdIII (1114411) * on Monday April 14 2008, @07:12AM (#23061608)
    I so rarely encourage violence, being an intellectual pacifist, but there are times when it is appropriate. As harsh as this may sound, I think somebody needs to physically grab a hold of each and every Monsanto executive and employee and firmly, not figuratively either, wedge their entire foot up these people's asses. If they were assassinated, I might actually smile.

    How could I possibly make such "raving mad" statements?

    Monsanto truly is among the most evil group of people this planet has ever seen. Truly. There is a lot that goes on this little twirling ball that gives me reason to lose hope and be fearful of the future, but not many more then this company and their actions.

    These people are the REAL LIFE Umbrella Corporation from Resident Evil. I don't say that to add hyperbole to my post either. They ARE. This company is messing around with the very code of life itself. We're talking genetics here. The field as a whole has promise, great promise for us all, when the individuals in it pursue the knowledge in a responsible way. NOTHING the Monsanto corporation does could be considered responsible from a scientific or social viewpoint.

    Remember the Monarch Butterflies? This company pursued research out in the open, without any environmental safeguards, and killed a large portion of the Monarch Butterfly population in recent years.

    This same company pursues it's genetic research not in a "pursuit-of-knowledge-at-all-cost","we are benefiting humanity", and a "nothing-could-go-wrong" approach. It is motivated purely by the pursuit of profit at the expense of all else.

    For those not aware, Monsanto has been avidly continuing to research ways to ensure that crops will die and not reproduce. As I said before, these people mess with the very code of life, and are deliberately researching ways to END IT . To modify an organism to die and remove it's ability to reproduce is an incredibly serious action. One cannot understate this fact. To even discuss doing so requires an enormous responsibility and dedication towards the preservation of life, all life. There has to be an incredible purpose to doing this. An example might be getting rid of Dengue Fever, or the elimination of Malaria, etc. The discussions surrounding it need to involve the entire scientific community, as the ramifications of such an act, the ethical and moral implications, NEED to be discussed.

    To do it for Profit? How is that not evil? How is that different from the medical experiments at Auschwitz or any of the other Nazi Concentration camps?

    • Re:Pure Evil (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 14 2008, @07:25AM (#23061700)
      http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-842180934463681887 [google.com]

      please take the time to watch this video.
      What everyone should know about monsanto and the ill will they do to our world.
    • Re:Pure Evil (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Missing_dc (1074809) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:46AM (#23061866)
      The parent post is not troll, just because someone feels passionately about something does not make them wrong. Those who would suppress others free speech in this manner are just a bunch of pussies. The world today is based on greed and violence. The Monsanto guys have more money and power than we can ever hope to attain through non-evil means that the only other option to stop them would appear to be the quick and easy violence method.

      Most of the things Monsanto does are vile, like sueing farmers who have never touched their products for having GMO grain when mother nature took the liberty of cross pollinating from another field.

      I am open to disccussion on this.

      I was in almost complete agreeance with the parent post until the last line. What the Nazis did was on a different level; a very different level, and to the best of my knowledge, was not motivated by greed.
      • Re:Pure Evil (Score:5, Informative)

        by vil3nr0b (930195) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:54AM (#23061924)
        Agreed. Obviously the parent did not have parents who had a farm. There are very few small farmers left. By this I am talking about those farming less than 2,000 acres. The number one rule for small farmers is not to get in bed with these fucks and any other person trying to sell magic products. They control seed prices with a strong arm and the same goes for farmers stuck selling chickens to Tyson.
        • What I've learned (Score:5, Interesting)

          by BCGlorfindel (256775) <klassenk&brandonu,ca> on Monday April 14 2008, @10:07AM (#23063754) Journal
          By this I am talking about those farming less than 2,000 acres. The number one rule for small farmers is not to get in bed with these fucks

          I heard a lot about the things Monsanto was doing, and growing up on a small farm(well under 2k acres) I was pretty upset. The next time I was back home to talk with my dad I asked him what he thought of the nasty things they did. He usually doesn't hesitate to criticize big entities that are hurting farmers like himself, so I expected an ear full. Much to my surprise the earful I got was about all the people protesting against companies like Monsanto on the grounds of them hurting small farmers. He reminded me that if farmers couldn't make more money with Monsanto's seeds they wouldn't use them. My mind immediately started forming all the usual rebuttals like massive input costs and price control and stopped when I remembered that guys farming small farms are just as smart as me. It reminded me the reason I brought the whole thing up with my dad was to get a more informed opinion. Intelligent farmers, with excellent business skills and a more complete understanding of the economics of farming make decisions that are good for their bottom line. For better or worse, Monsanto's round-up ready varieties are a very profitable product for farmers, large and small alike. There are other reasons to criticize Monsanto, but crushing small farms isn't one of them.
    • Re:Pure Evil (Score:5, Informative)

      by mh1997 (1065630) on Monday April 14 2008, @08:25AM (#23062308)

      Remember the Monarch Butterflies? This company pursued research out in the open, without any environmental safeguards, and killed a large portion of the Monarch Butterfly population in recent years.
      Wrong! The monarch caterpillers eat milkweed and only milkweed. Monarch butterflies only lay eggs on milkweed. (http://www.gpnc.org/monarch.htm) If anyone is killing the monarch butterfly, it is the average person that mows their lawn and pulls the weeds in that lawn. Monsanto modified corn to kill pests of various kinds and the monarch butterfly was reported incorrectly by the media to be one of those pests. The only pests that would be killed were those that ate the gm corn. Or I guess we could back the environmentally friendly crop dusting that has a tendency to kill birds, dogs, cats, mice, bugs, people, etc. that happen to be under the plane while it is dropping chemicals that drift with the wind. Are there problems with gm corn, I don't have all the answers, but the killing of monarch butterflies is not one of the problems.
    • Re:Pure Evil (Score:4, Informative)

      by crashfrog (126007) <crashfrog@gmail. c o m> on Monday April 14 2008, @08:31AM (#23062370) Homepage
      The problem is, the parts of your post that aren't just your opinion simply aren't true. The business about monarch butterflies is a myth, an urban legend.

      It doesn't even make ecological sense. Butterflies weren't exposed to the bT toxin in corn pollen because they don't eat corn pollen, it's well-known that milkweed is the food source for monarchs.

      There's not a single serious entomologist - crop or otherwise - who puts any credence in the "Monsanto is killing teh butterflies!" nonsense. It's been universally discredited.

      For those not aware, Monsanto has been avidly continuing to research ways to ensure that crops will die and not reproduce.

      Right - as a safety protocol. I mean, it's amazing - the very same post where you complain about the possibilities and dangers of GM genes entering the wild, and Monsanto comes up with a way to allay that concern - and to you, that's just more evidence that they're "evil."

      This company is messing around with the very code of life itself.

      And so were the meso-American farmers who originally created corn, 7500 years ago. You don't seem to bat an eye when pre-industrial peoples are doing it for profit - or maybe you're just, as is indicated, completely ignorant about the history of crop husbandry and genetics - but the minute modern people are doing it for profit, suddenly that's "evil."

      You're a reactionary, ignorant luddite.

      An example might be getting rid of Dengue Fever, or the elimination of Malaria, etc.

      How about feeding people? Starvation is the root cause of the top five causes of death, worldwide. It kills far, far more people than those two diseases. Combined.

      We're talking genetics here.

      Well, I am. God only knows what the fuck you're on about, but it certainly has no basis in scientific, genetic reality.
      • Re:Pure Evil (Score:5, Interesting)

        Butterflies weren't exposed to the bT toxin in corn pollen because they don't eat corn pollen, it's well-known that milkweed is the food source for monarchs.

        And of course corn pollen conveniently stays on corn plants, and never blows through the air to land milkweed.

        Does it do so often enough to present a hazard to monarchs? I don't know. But your contention that it "doesn't even make ecological sense" is unwarranted.

        Right - as a safety protocol.

        A "safety" protocol that threatens to wipe out neighboring crops. Here I am growing organic corn, saving seed, doing things the wholesome old-fashioned way, when a bunch of Terminator pollen blows from your field across mine. Next season all those seeds I saved, don't sprout.

        Yeah, that's safety.

        GM crops should simply not be grown in the open air. You want to grow 'em, fine, so long as you manage to keep the pollen contained under biohazard protocols in a greenhouse

        And so were the meso-American farmers who originally created corn, 7500 years ago

        Completely different. Selective breeding does not introduce new information into a species' genome.

        And I'll note that all that selective breeding took place without patents.

        The mendacity of Monsanto, et. al. is evident from their differing stories about how unique GM crops are. When safety concerns come up, it's "hey, this is just corn! Nothing special, shouldn't even be specially labeled. We produced it by means not significantly different than the selective breeding used for all of history."

        But when it's time to apply for patents, it's "this is our invention! Nothing like it has ever existed before! It it so unique and precious that the federal government should use force to prevent anyone else from using it without our permission!"

        How about feeding people?

        Great idea. Best way to do that is to let developing nations grow native crops for local consumption. The solution to hunger requires food sovereignty [foodfirst.org], not patented GM crops of questionable safety grown for the profit of agribusiness giants.

    • by witherstaff (713820) on Monday April 14 2008, @08:52AM (#23062648) Homepage

      Some reporters at fox news found strong evidence that the Monsanto BGH hormone to make cow's produce more milk was pushed through too quickly. They tried to report on it, Monsanto threatened to sue. Fox pulled the report before the air and set about having their reporters change the story. Finally the reporters were told to lie outright, they refused. Hilarity followed with the courts ruling that corporate media has no legal obligation to tell the truth.

      There has been ongoing lawsuit coverage [foxbghsuit.com] and other related issues.

      Monsanto reminds me of the Ag firm in the Clooney movie Michael Clayton .

      • by Minwee (522556) <dcr@neverwhen.org> on Monday April 14 2008, @09:49AM (#23063440) Homepage

        When... er... If they did I don't think they would issue a press release about it.

        Then again we are talking about Monsanto. They might not only brag about it but also try to sue the families of the zombies for theft of their patented 'Under Ground Ready" embalming fluids.

  • Hire me (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 14 2008, @07:23AM (#23061686)
    Although I do think modifying crops to prevent offspring is not a nice thing to do, I do think nothing forbids the
    farmers from hiring me to "crack the copy protection" (male sterility [in plants] isn't that hard to circumvent these days). Now if they offer me a better job compared to the current situation in research (shouldn't be to hard), I am all in for it.

    waiting for your offers,

    a biotechnologist.
  • by canUbeleiveIT (787307) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:27AM (#23061716)
    I suggest checking out the documentary "King Corn."

    The problem is mostly farm policy, which--like Social Security--seems to be too complicated a problem for our legislators to do anything about.
  • by filesiteguy (695431) <kai@perfectreign.com> on Monday April 14 2008, @07:29AM (#23061726) Homepage
    I often wondered why it is that a milk manufacturer who doesn't use BST (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bovine_somatotropin) in their product has to put a label that states something to the effect of "there's no scientific difference between cows treated with BST and those who aren't").

    The fact that a company can force a manufacturer to put a disclaimer on their product for NOT using the drug is really scary.

  • Castle Law (Score:5, Funny)

    by Space (13455) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:44AM (#23061852)
    Texas has the "Castle Law" stating that a person can defend their home, vehicle, or workplace with deadly force if they feel threatened. I wonder if Texas farmers can shoot lawyers on sight based on this law? ...seriously officer he came right at me with a briefcase...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday April 14 2008, @07:47AM (#23061868)
    This has been reported in several newspapers over the last few years.

    An important financial aspect that is very much overlooked with this Monasanto thug, is the thousands of dollars Monsanto expects famrers to pay when say a neighbouring field contaminates the fields of another farmer. Monsanto demands the contaminated farmer pay for the removal of these GM plants, even though the farmer is not at fault for these invading plants into his own land.

    How is this for an equivalent example?: What company forceably installs it's software onto your computer network and then demands you pay to remove it form all areas of that same network or they will sue you. They don't even tell you were all portions of the software is located in your network but if they inspect, without warrant, and find any remaining portions they will sue you.
  • F.Y.I.: (Score:4, Informative)

    by TripMaster Monkey (862126) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:54AM (#23061938)
    An excellent resource documenting the myriad evils of Monsanto can be found here [aye.net].
  • 1. company invests billions in developing a wheat strain that grows in the desert, or orange rice with vitamin a in it, etc.

    2. poor people get a hold of the crop, and grow it to feed themselves, but don't repay the company

    do you force them to pay, and they starve? or do let your investment fizzle? how do you pour money into a venture which has a moral hazard attached to it?

    the answer is simple, and taken straight form medical research: you only invest in research which guarantees a return. what do i mean? you spent trillions on heart attack medication, because most people having heart attacks (and are willing to treat them) are overfed overpaid rich people. meanwhile, you completely ignore malaria, which kills millions every year, because the only people who die from that are poor

    so monsanto will invest billions in wheat, because wheat is primarily grown in rich northern climes, and will completely ignore tropical foods, as those crops are grown in poor countries

    sorry africa, so gm yams for you

    compare the prevalence of various diseases according to socioeconomic status, and you will find a direct correlation to the amount of money that goes into medical research into those diseases

    now compare the prevalance of various food crops according to the GDP of the countries they are grown in. you will also find a direct correlation to the amount of $ into the biotech research in those food crops

    this is the world we live in. morals and money don't mix. for those of you involved in medical or biotech research, please notice where your progress actually falls in the grand scheme of things. you serve filthy lucre, not the progress of mankind. the poor, the ones who can benefit the most from medical and food crop research, are served last, and can only hope for trickle down progress after many generations

    in such a way, we are allowed to look very poorly on ip lawyers. yes, progress is served by the ip they protect, but progress only for the rich who can afford to pay for those expensive fruits (literally) of progress. but frankly, shaming people will not reverse this truth about the world we live in. a sense of high and mighty moral superiority does not pay the bills

    however, it does make you immortal in terms the fame one achieves if one could find a way to serve the poor instead of serving the rich. we remember martin luther king, and mahatma gandhi. we don't remember the peers of those great men in the 20th century who served filthy lucre instead. i didn't say the way was easy, or cheap. but whoever can find a way to make it work, and give us wheat that grows in the desert, or rice with vitamin a in it, for free, for the poor, without any ip strings attached, will earn the accolades of the ages, if not a fancy BMW in the driveway

    in 100 years, your nice house in the suburbs and your fancy bmw will be rust and rotting floorboards, and you will be a bunch of ash or bones. all that will live on is your name. what will you do with your time, who will you serve?
  • by throatmonster (147275) on Monday April 14 2008, @09:20AM (#23063042)
    There is currently a bill in the Missouri (USA) house, obviously written by Monsanto lobbyists, and brought to the floor by their bought-off legislators. The bill specifically prohibits organic milk producers from being able to label their product as BGH-Free, but fails to force any BGH-based milk from labeling their products as being produced with this substance.

    Sorry, but that's evil. As a consumer, regardless of whether I like BGH or hate it, I have a right to know. There are enough people concerned about the possible effects of BGH that they want to steer clear. But if Monsanto gets their way with this bill, how will a Missouri consumer be able to know?

    This is just one example of Monsanto's evil-ness. There are similar bills in other states in the US that are written by Monsanto lobbyists as well. It needs to be stopped. Yes, I've written my house representatives and told them I am against the bill.
    • Re:Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)

      by aurispector (530273) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:19AM (#23061660)
      Mmmmm, no.

      Monsanto and others have been pursuing this type of policy for years. The farmers get caught because the yields really are better and can't compete as well if they don't buy the patented products. Although I think Monsanto ought to be able to profit from their research, the tactics they use are questionable at best. The trouble is that if congress ever does seriously consider patent reform, they'll do it in a half assed manner that compounds rather than solved the problems.
        • Re:Sigh (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Stradivarius (7490) on Monday April 14 2008, @08:15AM (#23062180)
          I didn't see anything in the post that would imply Monsanto should only get a one-time payment, or be unable to negotiate what price they can get for their product.

          I saw it simply as noting that:
          1) Monsanto uses highly questionable tactics that end up hurting its own innocent customers, and
          2) Those who object to being treated in this way have little recourse, given their dependence on the Monsanto product.

          In any case, I don't think the behemoth that is Monsanto is in any danger of being "owned" by farmers anytime soon. Quite clearly, the relationship is the other way around. Even farmers who try to avoid Monsanto products can end up with their fields being contaminated with seed from other farmers' nearby plots, and then Monsanto sends their lawyers after them. Hell, Monsanto even sends the lawyers after companies that advertise the fact that they DON'T use Monsanto products (e.g. the dairy in the article advertising its avoidance of hormone treated cows).

          • Re:Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)

            by UbuntuDupe (970646) * on Monday April 14 2008, @08:43AM (#23062540) Journal
            Defending Monsanto (even in a qualified way) isn't good for one's karma, but ...

            Even farmers who try to avoid Monsanto products can end up with their fields being contaminated with seed from other farmers' nearby plots, and then Monsanto sends their lawyers after them.
            Actually, not quite. If your fields get contaminated with Monsanto crops, they won't sue. If you sell the contaminated plants for money, they won't sue or demand royalties. They will only sue if you collect the seed and replant it. I don't think that's too unreasonable. Let's face it: most of these hick farmers should know it wasn't their ingenuity that led to them having these superior crops, and know exactly what they're doing by replanting.

            That said,

            Monsanto even sends the lawyers after companies that advertise the fact that they DON'T use Monsanto products (e.g. the dairy in the article advertising its avoidance of hormone treated cows).
            this practice on Monsanto's part, I absolutely do not support. People have the right to make true statements about their products, even and especially if it's irrational to buy based on that. There's no evidence that Monsanto technologies are bad for you? Even if that were the case, so what? There's no scientific evidence that a rabbi's blessing will make your food healthier, or that a kosher diet will help you in the afterlife, yet we still permit products to be labeled as kosher.
            • Re:Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)

              by Overzeetop (214511) on Monday April 14 2008, @09:04AM (#23062804) Journal

              They will only sue if you collect the seed and replant it. I don't think that's too unreasonable. Let's face it: most of these hick farmers should know it wasn't their ingenuity that led to them having these superior crops, and know exactly what they're doing by replanting.
              That would be fine if seeds came from the seed fairy. But they don't. Seed come from plants, and farmers have been harvesting seeds for replanting for millenia. Now if you happen to farm next to a field that has Monsanto(r) plants, you can't use the same technique used for 1000s of years, simply because the bees next door didn't absee the "no cross pollination" sign.
                • Re:Sigh (Score:4, Insightful)

                  by drinkypoo (153816) <martin.espinoza@gmail.com> on Monday April 14 2008, @10:04AM (#23063726) Homepage Journal

                  Well, while I'm clearly out of my depth in agricultural knowledge, I doubt they needed *those specific seeds* for a full replanting. Even if that were the case, that would at best justify Monsanto compensating them for the lost seed (which is up to what now, ten cents a ton?).

                  Seed blows in the wind. So does pollen. Birds pick up seed and deposit it with handy fertilizer.

                  The beginnings of agriculture were like so: we ate the best plants, and their seeds were propagated as we dropped or pooped them. (Well, that's dropping, too. And again, with fertilizer.) Today, Monsanto can sue you if you follow this completely natural process.

                  The very idea of being able to patent a life form is ridiculous, for just this reason! Life exists to self-perpetuate. And there HAVE been cases in which Monsanto crops self-seeded on a small part of someone's land and they ended up losing the entire farm.

                  First thing, let's shoot all the lawyers.

                • Re:Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)

                  by mr_mischief (456295) on Monday April 14 2008, @10:05AM (#23063738) Journal
                  What the guy you're arguing with is saying is that a farmer who didn't buy licensed and restricted seeds has every right to do with his harvest what he damn well pleases. He bought the seed, he owns or leases the land, he planted it, fertilized it, applied herbicide to the weeds around it, harvested it, and insured it against hail, fire, and drought. He owns what he takes out of the field that he grew, and he can eat it, sell it, burn it, or use it.

                  The guy who buys Monsanto's seeds and signs a no reseeding contract gave up some of his rights in the contract. He didn't give up his neighbor's rights, as those aren't his rights to give up.

                  The farmers who don't buy patented GM seeds aren't trespassing onto the land of those who do and stealing pollen. The wind (yes, wind -- corn is self-pollinating or wind-pollinated as often as pollinated by bees) or bees do that naturally. The unnatural pollen many farmers consider dangerous crud actually invades non-GM farms and perverts their botanically hybridized crops. For that, should Monsanto be the plaintiff or the defendant?

                  If Monsanto is so concerned about their unnatural crops cross-pollinating other corn and beans, then they should GM it to keep it from doing that. It's not the fault of people trying to avoid it that the wind blows.

                  That's like running over a kid in a crosswalk while the walk sign is lit and suing the kid for being there because he dented your car. The kid's doing what he's supposed to do, you're infringing on his space, and then you blame him. That's what Monsanto is doing.
            • Re:Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)

              by crmarvin42 (652893) on Monday April 14 2008, @09:51AM (#23063452)
              As a member of the college of Ag at a Big 10 University I have to say that this article was an obvious smear job. Yes, Monsanto is a big company that makes GM crops. Yes, Monsanto acts to defends it's patents by preventing people from reusing the seeds and will occasionally go after the wrong person when they think someone is using their product without paying for it. The tone I got from the article was that GM is bad and Monsanto is a big company so it is bad as well.

              As to the case of suing over labeling I have to disagree with your statement

              People have the right to make true statements about their products, even and especially if it's irrational to buy based on that.
              This is a problem because of the implied statement as to the safety of other products. It's a scare tactic because the labeling is intentionally misleading. It's akin to my recent change of mind over "Organic Food".

              I used to be a huge fan of the Organic Foods movement because it meant that farmers received more money for their goods. I have never read a reputable article that shows organic to be any healthier for the consumer or the environment, but until recently farmers were getting screwed when they sold their goods so I thought it was a good idea because it was essentially those with too much money that were paying the Organic Tax. The problem is that now people are convinced that it is superior to normally produced food and people who cannot afford the extra money are forced to purchase organic either out of fear, lack of options, or peer pressure (applied by not only friends but half of the talking heads on TV)
            • Re:Sigh (Score:5, Interesting)

              by electrictroy (912290) on Monday April 14 2008, @09:23AM (#23063086)
              The Amish-American farmers that I live next door to don't seem to be having any problems. (Probably because they choose to use "open source" corn seeds, rather than patented Microsoft....er, Monsanto seeds.) Maybe my neighbors idea of "keeping it simple" is not such a bad idea after all. They certainly appear to be stress-free, and no need to worry about mega-corporations descending upon them like giants.

                • Re:Sigh (Score:4, Insightful)

                  by electrictroy (912290) on Monday April 14 2008, @10:45AM (#23064422)
                  STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. Nobody said anything about living like Amish. (Poor debating tactic.)

                  The point of my previous post was: If you use "open source" products, you can do whatever the hell you want and live free from corporate dictatorship. However if you use "copyrighted" or trademarked products, then you have to be complying with your chosen corporations' rules and restrictions. ----- It's a choice, and each has pros & cons. Welcome to the "real world".
            • Indian Farmers (Score:5, Insightful)

              by ringmaster_j (760218) on Monday April 14 2008, @10:29AM (#23064138)
              Yes, let's all blame Monsanto for the farmer suicides. After all, it couldn't be a huge, institutionalized problem created by years of government mismanagement? Nope: it's the big bad guy from the West! Wait, well, let's look it over, shall we?

              The Indian government, during the "green revolution", convinced huge numbers of ordinary joes to take up farming. The government subsidized their crops, and held a monopoly over them. They then instituted rationing programs across the country. Huge, rousing success. Famines were nearly eliminated. Problem was, it created a huge number of new farmers who used to be auto mechanics, dhobi-wallahs, shopkeepers...etc These guys had never farmed in their lives, and had no experience. Their efficiency rates didn't matter back in the days of the Green Revolution, they just needed to produce anything. Fast forward to now, however, and the problem this created is apparent. The Indian government has opened the market up to international trade, and these farmers can't be competitive. They're competing with Thai and Indonesian farmers who are two to three decades ahead of them in terms of technology, and whose families have been farming for ten generations. So, big problems. What does the Indian government propose? GM seeds! They dole them out by the tonne without explaining that they can't be reseeded (it's not illegal, it's just impossible: the crops can't be replanted). The farmers plant them, get huge yields, go apeshit, take out huge loans, and then go bankrupt when they realize that the have to buy seeds for the next year.

              "But ringmaster_j," you say, "isn't that proving that Monsanto is responsible?!?!" No. The crops themselves are not to blame. They have the potential to bring prosperity to the farmers of the Green Revolution, and make India competitive. No, what needs to be seen is the horrible way in which the farmers have been treated by their government. This is a very typical Indian government move: dump tonnes of grain from on high, get elected, move on to the next town. No planning, no advice on how to use the grain, no caveats; just "Apne GM grain he! Vote BJP/Congress/AIADMK/DMK/CPI(M)! Namaskar!" It's horrible. Then, when farmers start killing themselves, they blame it on "evil grain", and burn effigies.

              Yours,
              -A Canadian Living in India
    • by Bronster (13157) <slashdot@brong.net> on Monday April 14 2008, @07:21AM (#23061674) Homepage
      they can keep planting the old garden variety ones

      right until the modified crop contaminates their supply and they get sued for keeping the seeds [wikipedia.org].

      • by advocate_one (662832) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:29AM (#23061724)
        Also recent trials have shown that GM seeds remain viable for up to ten years after the initial sowing... so even if you've stopped using their seed on your fields, the damned things can still germinate several years later and leave you liable, or your successor (if you've cashed up and sold on) liable to IP violation charges...

        [farmonline.com.au]

        A Swedish study has found viable GM canola seed persisted for up to 10 years under European conditions, but Dr Preston said Australian research had found canola seed persisted only for 3.5 years under local conditions.

        This still presents challenges for farmers wanting to switch in and out of the GM/non-GM markets by sowing alternate crops, Dr Preston said.

        If a farmer wants to sow non-GM canola following a GM canola crop, they will need to wait up to four years to be assured of not getting GM contamination.

        note 4 years for Australian farmers, ten years for EU farmers...

        • by Technician (215283) on Monday April 14 2008, @08:27AM (#23062326)
          Also recent trials have shown that GM seeds remain viable for up to ten years after the initial sowing... so even if you've stopped using their seed on your fields, the damned things can still germinate several years later and leave you liable, or your successor (if you've cashed up and sold on) liable to IP violation charges...

          The point missed is what happens when the farmer uses clean seed from his heritage and his crop is cross polinated from the GM field next door? Now his seed crop is a half breed of GM stock. As the years go by, the cross contamination from the field next door continues until his crop isn't much diffrent than the field next door. This is done without stealing a single seed.

          He still gets hit with the same lawsuit for theft of IP when the genetic crop is found in his field.
      • by will_die (586523) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:48AM (#23061878) Homepage
        The example you showed is NOT a case of crop contaimination.
        If you read the decision, not the various sites put up supporting Mr Schmeiser, you find it came about because Mr. Schmeiser identified the round-up resisant plants, then isolated them so they would increase in strength and then saved those seeds. He was deliberatly breeding seeds he knew were contaminated.
        • by Nursie (632944) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:58AM (#23061982) Homepage
          So fucking what?

          Seriously, you have a field of crop X. Other farmers around you have a field of GM crop X from company Y.

          You find that next year your crop has gained some of the properties/genes of the GM version through airborne cross pollination. You think this is a good thing and keep growing it.

          Why should there be any consequences? Their modified genetic material has invaded your crop. You haven't stolen anything. Why should you be sued?

          hell, the guy should be able to sell it on as his own roundup resistant strain in any sane world.
          • by h4rm0ny (722443) <{h4rm0ny} {at} {tarddell.net}> on Monday April 14 2008, @08:07AM (#23062090) Journal

            You find that next year your crop has gained some of the properties/genes of the GM version through airborne cross pollination. You think this is a good thing and keep growing it.

            Bit of a bugger if you don't think it's a good thing though. For example if you're entire market is based on selling Organic Produce.
            • by Random Destruction (866027) on Monday April 14 2008, @09:21AM (#23063062) Homepage
              if the money transport van was designed in such a way that it spewed money onto my property as it drove by, maybe. Especially if the transport owners knew it would do this.

              I think the analogy is getting stretched a bit though.
            • by Nursie (632944) on Monday April 14 2008, @09:51AM (#23063462) Homepage
              "*sigh* If a money transport van crashes into your garden, is the money yours?"

              *sigh*

              That's the worst analogy I've ever heard. And I'm not kidding laddie, that one could win prizes.

              Money doesn't require your own nutrients and your own plants to interact, breed with and nourish it. Money doesn't waft over walls with nobody to miss it, somebody probably cares and takes effort to stop money floating away. Money doesn't invisibly turn up and change your crops into something someone else has patented.

              In short, sorry, but that analogy is so wide of the mark you may as well have said "*sigh* If a pizza truck crashes into your toenails, is the cat dead?"

    • by EdIII (1114411) * on Monday April 14 2008, @07:27AM (#23061714)
      I think you entirely missed the point. The way that Monsanto attempts to protect it's intellectual property rights is egregious. You say that they can "keep planting the old garden variety ones". They actually are. The vast majority of these farmers never purchased, or obtained in any way, the genetically modified seeds.

      They were brought to these farmers fields outside of their control.

      It would be like having a huge server farm with various flavors of Linux and then walking in one day and having Microsoft "pop" up out of nowhere. Microsoft then charges up the road with the BSA and sues you for IP theft.

      What makes it even harder for farmers is that there are no "logos" on the plants. Farmer Bob cannot walk through his fields and look down and say, "Awww Shit! Got Monsanto up and growing in the fields again. MA! Get the kids we got to pull them bastards up outa the ground before they get here".

      How do you deal with intellectual property that has "legs"?
      • by h4rm0ny (722443) <{h4rm0ny} {at} {tarddell.net}> on Monday April 14 2008, @07:47AM (#23061872) Journal

        They also take a sort of "first one's free" approach to get people hooked. Through cheap rates or donated seed, they put whatever pressure or enticement or deceit they can to get people to the point where they no longer have stocks of unpatented seeds to grow. When that happens, you will see a gross change in policy because Monsanto will have patents on the food supply.

        Aside from the ethics of patenting food, there are significant dangers to all of us. The spread of engineered crops removes the choice from the rest of us as we can no longer secure a "pure" alternative. Furthermore, Monsanto's aggresive pushing of its patented varieties brings about a homogenity of crops to a degree we've never seen before. Whilst the food supply is already more uniform than it used to be, the genetically identical crops being spread world wide by Monsanto go even further. Google for the Irish Potato Famine if you want a reminder of the dangers of putting all our eggs in one basket. Only in this scenario, it's world wide. And then there is the wider context to consider about what this technology actually offers us. For example, Monsanto's "Golden Rice" which is enriched with Vitamin A to help those who are deficient in it in the third world areas where they grow rice. The problem being that they are deficient only relatively recently since international agriculture business has forced them to only grow rice for commercial reasons. The Golden Rice looks like a good thing from a narrow perspective, consider the larger context and you realise it's comiong from the same root as what causes the problem in the first place. And all the issues about bio-diversity, establishment of monopoly, ethics of patenting food still stand.

        Monsanto need to be stopped for all our sakes and I would love to do it.
    • has the same "problem". but you will note that patents on new drugs run out quickly. that is, in a few years, not in a few lifetimes. this is because people needs these drugs to live. likewise, poor countries thumb their noses at things like patents on AIDS drugs, and the world community pretty much supports them

      why?

      see, in the field of morals and ethics, there is actually something more important than *gasp* profit. so your high holy moral indignation doesn't ring true, that anyone would not consider monsanto's search for profits a god-given right... how dare they!

      its not like music. you can live without music. but you can't live without life saving drugs... and you can't live without food

      so i agree with you that monsanto deserves some reward for its efforts. but don't you think there is a difference between a modest protection of a few years, versus a greedy ip grab supported by legions of lawyers that extends far beyond a logical concept of financial gain?

      however, what is the motivation then to say make rice with vitamin a, or wheat that grows in the desert?

      balance: you harness greed in order to serve mankind. you create ip to create incentive to reward companies. but that shit gets out of hand. it metastisizes, corporate greed takes on a life of its own, and then it deserves a smackdown, to remind it that it serves us, we don't serve it

      progress in the fields of technology exists to serve mankind. human society created the legal framework so that corporations serve us through progress. but if corporations begin to think that the pursuit of the almighty buck eclipses all else, such as with the idiocy ip law has become, it deserves to be broken. and don't worry about it: legions of lawyers have proven to be ineffective against music hungry teenagers. how effective do you think they will be against literally hungry people?
    • by A beautiful mind (821714) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:48AM (#23061882)
      In a fair situation Monsanto would be allowed to research things, but would be sued into oblivion if their crops would contaminate a farmer's crop and then terminate. Farmers should be able to sue Monsanto for destruction of their property, instead of the other way around.

      If we allow corporations to own species or subspecies, then the incentive is in the direction of biological warfare between corporations. Artificial species are then corporately designed to spread more aggressively, treat other species with more hostility and be more resilient. This is a disaster waiting to happen.

      The reason we have ethics that say it's not reasonable for anyone to own a whole species is because of the problems we encounter down the road, on the long term. If millions of dollars are needed to create a GM crop and there is no way to recoup investment other than owning a species, then that business model should FAIL. There are lots of business models that should fail, because society is not willing to pay the price of sustaining such business models. From the business' perspective, this might make sense, since they are not the ones that are directly bearing the cost of their business model, but from society's standpoint: no deal.
    • by DanMc (623041) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:55AM (#23061942)
      One of the problems with this argument is that the seeds are organisms that naturally strive to reproduce. If I develop a gene therapy that cures a man's sickle cell disease, can I sue his children & grandchildren for licensing fees? They are reaping the benefits of my genetic research. This is an exact analogy to what Monsanto is doing to many farmers. It's not really a case of famers intentionally stealing the GM seed and using it without a license. In my example, at least humans who have my IP could decide not to procreate to incur the licensing fees, but how do you tell a plant not to reproduce?

      Throw in the old fashioned monopoly building of a megacorp, and you have viral licensing of life.

      Step 1. Develop Roundup weed killer.

      Step 2. Develop a seed that is resistant to roundup.

      Step 3,4,5,6. Buy over 80% of seed companies so customers have almost no choice.

      Step 7. Partner with large agri-businesses who buy up farms so they earn record profits while family farms can't stay profitable...

      ... I could keep going. Anyone who reads up on it, even if they're not at all into conspiracies, realizes this is wrong and leads to tight control of the world's food suply.

      • by Jason Levine (196982) on Monday April 14 2008, @07:45AM (#23061856) Homepage
        You're not misquoting. That's one of the main problems with the GM crop lawsuits. Farmer Bob decides that he's not going to use GM seeds and only plants non-GM seeds. His neighbor, Farmer Jim, though, plants GM seeds. One day a breeze blows a few seeds from Farmer Jim's property to Farmer Bob's property. These seeds take root and grow. The crops are similar, just GM versus non-GM, so there's no way for Farmer Bob to tell the difference.

        Monsanto, knowing that Jim is using GM seeds but Bob isn't, sues Bob for infringing their rights. They check his field and find a few GM plants growing. He's then forced to pay Monsanto for the "right" to have those plants growing in his field. (Whether he wanted them or not is irrelevant to Monsanto.) And since the GM plants might pop back up in subsequent years or might blow over from Farmer Jim's field again, Farmer Bob's field is now contaminated and he must pay yearly fees to Monsanto or face legal action enough to make him lose his farm.

        The lesson here is: Buy genetically modified seeds from Monsanto or you'll lose your farm.

        Or put another way: Dat's a nice farm you've got dere. If you buy these seeds from us, we can ensure that you'll be "protected." Otherwise.... Well, it'd be a shame if something *happened* to dat farm of yours.
      • Re: rBGH and more... (Score:5, Interesting)

        by will_die (586523) on Monday April 14 2008, @08:49AM (#23062622) Homepage
        The main problem is that there are groups of people who are against any type of GM modified food, the fears range from stories out of Outer Limits to fears that they will increase poverty(you cannot produce the better product no-one wants yours) to loss of diverisity.

        As for milk and rBGH it is not the BST that is the main concern but IGF-1, insulin growth factor-1. This is naturally occuring in the human and cow body. High levels of IGF1 has been linked to increased chances of certain types of cancer and mabye the increased chance of giving births to twins. Science has not shown in dietary intake of IGF-1 will increase this amount.
        Injecting cows with rBGH may increases the amount of IGF-1 found in milk, some studies have shown an increase but all of the studies have shown that it amount falls within the normal amounts. There is no scientific test that can tell you if the milk you are drinking comes from rBBGH injected cows or not. FYI you would have to drink around 95 quarts of milk, any kind, to equal the amount IGF-1 the average human body produces in day.
        Now the reason most countries have banned rBGH has not been IGF-1 but because of a udder infection called mastitis. While this is likly to effect all types of cows it can be more common in rBGH cows because they are milked more often. mastitis prevention is mainly done, in the US, by testing at the farms, testing at the plants and pasturization.
        For the US that can work since we generally want to consider all milk and dairy products, (cheese, yogurt,etc) to be dead. We freeze and cool them if there is any type of life(mold) we will toss them. In other parts of the world that is not the case and mastitis can be a problem. FYI test to check for the presence of mastitis are cheap and can be purchased at various lifestock stores on even on the internet.
        However with that all said, cows milk is probably one of the worst things you can drink as an adult, it is full of sugar and other things needed by children not adults. As an adult you are better off switching to goat milk or using cow milk just for the cream, cheeses or yogurts.
          • by bhima (46039) * <Bhima DOT Pandava AT gmail DOT com> on Monday April 14 2008, @08:56AM (#23062702) Journal
            Interesting you object to film "The Corporation". I work for one of the companies mentioned in the film and have for nearly 20 years. I found their treatment of information I had personal knowledge of to be completely accurate.

            I think you'll find links to the actual peer reviewed paper hard to come by. However, there are a variety of sites (readily discoverable thanks to google) which adequately describe the biological processes (which in my opinion are not preposterous but I am not a biologist, I am a chemist) and the risks possed. However from your use of "hippie's wet dream" I conclude youâ(TM)ve already made up your mind... so Iâ(TM)ll leave it you find the links for yourself and decide whether or not to believe them.
    • by swordgeek (112599) on Monday April 14 2008, @10:08AM (#23063780) Journal
      Um...no.

      Roundup Ready crops are definitely a GM product. Specifically, a soil bacterium gene that is resistant to glyphosphate-induced inhibition was inserted into the seed. For corn (strain 603, to be specific), here's the quote from Monsanto in their request to the Canadian government:

      The 603 line of corn (Zea maysL.) was developed through a specific genetic modification to be tolerant to glyphosate containing herbicides. This novel variety was developed from an inbred dent corn line by insertion of a bacterial 5-enolpyruvylshikimate-3-phosphate synthase (EPSPS) encoding gene which provides enhanced tolerance to glyphosate compared to the native corn EPSPS. (a href="http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/fn-an/gmf-agm/appro/roundup_ready_corn_603-mais_603_roundup_ready_e.html"ref: Health Canada.)

      Similar for soybeans and canola.

      Secondly, the key to RR crops is consumer (i.e. farmer) product lock-in. Spraying Roundup on early post-emergent seedlings means that you can ONLY grow RR crops. Even with careful application, the drift will cause significant damage to adjacent crops.

      Finally, No modern farmer "reuses" seeds, GM or no.
      Wrong. Just flat out wrong. It's not as common as it was, but MANY farmers harvest seed crops as well as food crops, get them washed and treated, and grow them again. Besides, whether or not it happens is irrelevant--taking away that option, either by splicing in terminator genes or by suing farmers, is just criminal.

      "Forgetting for a moment the fact that organic crops are less safe..."

      Um...what? I'd love to know what you mean by this.