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China to Use Silver Iodide & Dry Ice to Control the Weather
Posted by
Zonk
on Thu Mar 27, 2008 08:21 AM
from the definitely-not-a-step-towards-a-weather-machine dept.
from the definitely-not-a-step-towards-a-weather-machine dept.
eldavojohn writes "While we made light of it before, the MIT Review is taking a serious look at China's plans to prevent rain over their open 91,000 seat arena for The Olympics. From the article: 'China's national weather-engineering program is also the world's largest, with approximately 1,500 weather modification professionals directing 30 aircraft and their crews, as well as 37,000 part-time workers — mostly peasant farmers — who are on call to blast away at clouds with 7,113 anti-aircraft guns and 4,991 rocket launchers.' They plan on demonstrating their ability to control the weather to the rest of the world, and expanding on their abilities in the future."
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Idle: China Vows to Stop the Rain 214 comments
Since the Olympic stadium doesn't have a roof, the Beijing Meteorological Bureau has been given the task of making sure the games remain dry. According to Zhang Qian, head of weather manipulation (best title to have on a business card ever) at the bureau, they've had success with light rain but heavy rain remains tough to control. I see a hurricane cannon in some lucky country's future.
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Hmmm... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hmmm... (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Hmmm... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Hmmm... (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Hmmm... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Re:Hmmm...Here We Go Again (Score:5, Funny)
China alleged that the violent weather activities were "masterminded" by the Mother Nature "clique" with the "vicious intention" of undermining the Olympics and splitting China. Mother Nature has denied the charge, and said she is ready for a dialogue with Beijing.
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Re:Hmmm...Here We Go Again (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Sad, funny, History repeating itself (Score:5, Interesting)
"the country's biggest four evils - rats, flies, mosquitoes and sparrows? "
Read the article (those of you who don't know this important bit of history so we don't repeat it)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3371659.stm [bbc.co.uk]
which ended in disaster and famine. Well now its the weather. Too bad the weather in one part of the world effects all other parts, the butterfly effect.
Between genetic engineering on the "oh it will be alright, we have taken into consideration all the possible consequenses" and massive weather modification (for some games). I think we have made great evolutionary progress towards total survival and total good life for everone forever, don't you?
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And all they need... (Score:5, Funny)
Wyoming Tested This (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Wyoming Tested This (Score:4, Interesting)
Very true, but one thing to consider:
91,000 seats at this stadium.
37,000 workers for weather control
Probably another 5000 general workers in and around the stadium (at a minimum)
133,000 people in the 'effect' area.
Now consider that Wyoming is a very large state, and only has a population of 493,782.
To me, that seems like a rather large concentration of people who will be exposed to this.
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No, they will not (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:No, they will not (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:No, they will not (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Wyoming Tested This (Score:5, Funny)
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Cloud seeding has been used in Alberta too (Score:5, Insightful)
For the past dozen years, the government has regularly seeded clouds in its hail damage mitigation programme [weathermod.com]. As a Calgary resident I can say that it has noticeably reduced the frequency and intensity of hail storms, and has probably contributed to millions of dollars in savings in disaster relief and insurance claims.
Given that this is not only an old practice, but one that occurs frequently around the world, I don't see where the news-worthiness or controversy is in China's application of cloud seeding to divert precipitation from Beijing during Olympic events, aside from the mildly amusing reason behind the project.
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All part of the master plan (Score:3, Funny)
Step 2 -- sharks with lasers
Step 3 -- Global domination!
Also from the article... (Score:5, Insightful)
Someone please try to justify evicting one and a half million people for the Olympics.
I'm sure someone will try...which just proves that China's subtle information campaigns to attempt to make the world think that everything is rosy or somehow justified are working like a charm.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, from a Chinese collectivist, 'end's justify the means' perspective, why does it matter if 1.5 million drones are relocated?
Re:Also from the article... (Score:5, Informative)
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Eminent Domain (Score:5, Interesting)
In ATL, the citizens at least could use the 5th Amendment's taking clause [wikipedia.org] to get just compensation for any property lost to the government.
I had to look, but China does surprisingly have a version of the "eminent domain" clause in their Constitution [peopledaily.com.cn] - See #6 of "Amendment Fourth" down the page. Note it doesn't say "just compensation"... it just says they can take private property, and pay you something for it. Somehow I don't think, unless you are a Communist party big-wig, that value is decided by an impartial tribunal in a court of law.
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What does China gain from hosting these? (Score:3, Interesting)
So my question is, other than saying "we hosted the olympics in 2009", what benefit is it to them to do so? I'd think that they'd get more res
Re:What does China gain from hosting these? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:What does China gain from hosting these? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:What does China gain from hosting these? (Score:5, Insightful)
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The number 8 as in 8/8/8 (Score:5, Interesting)
Assuming you meant to say "2008" rather than "2009", I can only give you a partial answer. More specifically as to why it has to be 2008.
In Chinese culture, as well as other Asian cultures that share that heritage, the number 8 is a very lucky number and is also associated with prosperity. This belief is also applied into dates. The olympics is scheduled to start on August 8, 2008, or in number representation 8/8/8. I recall back in August 8th of 1988 (8/8/88), many Asian people where I lived (San Gabriel Valley, California which is otherwise known as the new LA Chinatown) bought up many lotto and lottery tickets.
I would imagine this number thing is so central in their beliefs such that the Chinese govt must really want to display prosperity.
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Re:Also from the article... (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Also from the article... (Score:4, Funny)
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Bush failed in New Orleans. (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm a long time Bush supporter and I have to concede that I was very disappointed with the way that he handled Katrina. Let me put it this way. If I was President, I'd have had an army in there on day one, stopping at every Home Depot on the way to pick up stuff to build with and sending the bills to Congress. I'd have had generators in there and the water out. That didn't take place. It doesn't mean that he's racist, as the original poster states, and nor does it absolve the local residents from their own admittedly corrupt local government, but, by the same token, when a man is drowning, you don't sit there and yell at him for not following proper safety regulations on the boat. You pull him out.
I wanted to see Bush with the megaphone in downtown New Orleans, the same way as he was on top of the WTC rubble. I thought that moment in September in NYC so long ago was Bush about as good as a President could get, and by contrast, the Bush we got for Katrina flew over the region in Air Force one, delegated the disaster to a low level functionary that wound up failing at the job, and then, to top it all off, gave us some vague excuses about seperation of federal powers and the posse commitatas act. The guy was already breaking the law doing wiretaps without a court order, so, if you are going to argue the President can bend the rules to protect the American people, then he should have bent them in New Orleans.
I mean, if Bush could muster the national purpose to turn an attack by a rogue group into an invasion of not one, but TWO countries, certainly going against the spirit of our own signing of the UN Treaty, then, he could have bent a few rules, and been that figurehead again, and mounted a national effort to rebuild New Orleans. The man had an opportunity to become a living legend, and he blew it, and America is lesser for it.
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Re:Bush failed in New Orleans. (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Bush failed in New Orleans. (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:Also from the article... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm not being an apologist. I'm horrified at some of the actions undertaken by my Government in recent years. But anybody with any sense of objectivity can see that it's not nearly as bad as what's going on in China right now. Or Pakistan. Or Burma. Our people aren't jailed if they speak out against Government policy towards an oppressed/conquered racial group. Our opposition leaders aren't being assassinated. Our Supreme Court isn't under house arrest.
I will speak out against human rights abuses by any Government, including my own. This idea that we don't have the right to point out abuses in other countries because our own isn't 100% perfect benefits nobody besides the oppressive nations of the World.
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Re:Also from the article... (Score:5, Informative)
First, the "big box" stores like Wal-Mart, Target, Home Depot, etc. try to find unoccupied land when they can because it's cheaper. Sure, in urbanized areas that's difficult or impossible, which is why their second choice is demolishing/renovating older shopping centers, warehouses, and so forth. There's several of these going on within ten miles of my home right now. Again, this is cheaper (and easier on the PR) than going after residential areas. The absolute last choice is a residential area because it's more expensive, more time consuming, and -- as you've noted in your argument -- it pisses people off sometimes.
Second, I question your use of the term "evict." Evict means they're forcibly parted from their property. This does happen from time to time, and when it does it makes news. There have been documented cases of eminent domain abuse centered around these types of stores, and you're quite right to complain about them. That is your argument: the encroachment on private property rights by local city zoning councils (which are after sales tax dollars) and the businesses they "work" for (who want your sales dollars and pay politicians with campaign contributions). You hurt yourself, though, by claiming it happens "almost every 6 months" to 30 families. The aforementioned abuses are inexcusable, but they are much rarer than you claim.
Third, you attempt to draw some equivalence between China displacing 1.5M people and our eminent domain abuses. That is a poor analogy for many reasons, not the least of which is that the Chinese have much more limited property rights than Americans do to begin with. Also, using your very own numbers, you claim 30 families are uprooted every six months in the U.S., and you claim it's been going on "for decades." By my calculations on your numbers (numbers I disagree with, BTW), the "fuckers in the USA" displace a maximum of 60 families a year. Assuming 3 people constitutes a family, that's 180 people per year. At this rate it would take over eight thousand years for the "fuckers in the USA" to displace 1.5M people, something the Chinese are doing in far less than a decade. Even that number pales when compared to the relocation required for the Three Gorges Dam project. Yet you seem to have a problem determining the difference in scale, morally equivocating one to the other.
Like I said, your argument against eminent domain abuses are quite valid, but your exaggeration and hyperbole degenerates your argument into frothing at the mouth. What we're doing with eminent domain abuse in this country is bad, but what's going on in places like China is much, much worse...so much so that it really diminishes the more egregious abuse by trying to link it with the lesser abuse.
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Boycott the Genocide Olympics (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Boycott the Genocide Olympics (Score:5, Insightful)
Saying "Foreign involvement and investment in Sudan might actually be helping the place" is ridiculous. It's like saying that you can send 10,000 pounds of cereal to a corrupt African government and actually expect them to pass the food on to their starving citizens. The reason their citizens are starving is precisely because of government corruption and interference. Those people are never going to see the food if you give it to their government.
Likewise, expecting a government that is actively slaughtering its people to somehow pass on any of their profits to those same people is ludicrous. The companies you reference are doing business with the government, not with the country's population, and certainly not with any resident of the Darfur region.
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control the air (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:control the air (Score:5, Funny)
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Isn't silver bad for you???? (Score:3, Insightful)
If china pumps a ton of this stuff out, this will obviously get into the drinking water and then the athletes will drink that water as well as the local citizens and so you get blue skinned Chinese and athletes!
I think the US, UK, and its allies should boycott the Olympics. Of course I'd like our country to show China that democracy is way better than communism like we did to the Russians back in the hey-day, but China has smog (high levels of mercury and lead than any smog city in the world) and now silver iodide in their drinking water. I wouldn't want our strapping young athletes to end up with lungs like that of a smoker and have asthma attacks.
Well, isn't that convenient... (Score:3, Funny)
Let's just hope the farmers load the shells from the wooden boxes with the clouds on them, not the skull and crossbones, during the Olympics.
Where's the tag (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Where's the tag (Score:5, Funny)
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Messing with climate oscillations (Score:4, Interesting)
At last.... (Score:5, Funny)
Now I can sleep happy knowing that the Chinese are going to be spraying them into the atmosphere. I'm not a chemist, but as someone with an interest in photography, I predict a negative effect on our climate which may take some time to develop but will take a whole lot of sodium thiosulfate to fix!
This Reminds Me (Score:5, Interesting)
The first was from the Lonely Planet's China guide, wherein one of the contributors said he was an avid jogger who moved to Beijing. Upon discovering the poor air quality, he decided it was better for his health to stop jogging.
The second was the funny and sad story of the fate of songbirds in Beijing. Apparently, Chairman Mao hated them. So he commanded all the citizens of the city to go outside and bang on pots and pans. The birds, scared by the racket, flew around and around until they dropped dead out of the sky from exhaustion. Subsequently, the insect population soared without the birds to keep them in check.
A reasonable person might have concluded that they should bring back the birds and restore equilibrium, but not Mao. He then decreed that since insects were breeding in the grass and vegetation in the capitol, that everyone should turn out and uproot all the plants and soak the trees down with DDT (a practice which continues to this day, in fact). Then, with no ground-level vegetation around, the city began to experience vexing dust storms.
The Chinese Communist Party efficiently proclaimed it a consequence of being downwind from the massive Soviet industrial complexes in Siberia.
The third anecdote involves the Three Gorges Dam. When the it looked like the CCP would put the plans into action, scientists and experts from around the world unanimously proclaimed it a Bad Idea. It would wipe out endangered species. It would erase one of the two greatest cultural and scenic features of China: the Three Gorges are somewhat analogous to the Grand Canyon and have inspired Chinese poets and artists for thousands of years. It would prove ineffective in generating power over the long run due to the rapid silting up of the reservoir. It would dislocate millions of people pushed out by the rising waters. It would create a potential disaster for the people living downstream (including Shanghai, one of the most densely populated cities in the world), because the dam itself was built across several faults.
But the CCP went ahead, because nature and man must be subsumed beneath the needs of the proletariat. Now it turns out, once the reservoir is filling, that all those concerns were true. For instance, the increased weight of water in the reservoir above the fault lines has accelerated the number of temblors. Also, with restricted water flow, regions downstream are experiencing drought (an unexpected consequence). And with the reduced water flow, pollution has become more concentrated and caused public health problems. And the last unexpected consequence is that the increased water levels in the reservoir have triggered all kinds of landslides.
In short, China's approach to the environment is nothing short of a disaster. And unhappily for them, the effects of the disaster are immediately felt and born by the rank-and-file Chinese, given the high population density. Yet because of the totalitarian presence of the CCP and its totalizing ideology and propaganda, the country and its people are unable to efficiently evaluate proposals and effectively respond to problems.
It's sad, because the Chinese are an incredibly inventive and resourceful group. They've given so much to the world. One wonders what they could achieve in a free and open society. But alas, they have, at least for the time being, chosen to handicap themselves with a system that turns all their genius to idiocy.
The rest of us should observe, and take notes for our own societies.
Not Songbirds Sparrows. (Score:5, Interesting)
Interestingly enough just at the same time that China was facing this massive grain shortage Russia called in, loans that it had outstanding demanding grain and other food in payment. Rather than Default the communists forced the loans to be paid but that ended whatever positive relationship the two countries had. All through the 80's when people talked of a "Communist Conspiracy" they ignored the fact that after that little stunt the Chinese hated the Russians.
One possible consequence of cloud seeding may be hinted at in this Guardian article RAF Rainmakers 'caused 1952 flood' [guardian.co.uk] Let's hope that isn't the case.
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Nice. Instead of raining water, it will rain lead. Good thinking china.
Then it rains bullets.
Then it rains rockets.
Then it rains assorted aircraft parts.
Finally, much to the sha-grin of the Weather Girls, it's raining men!
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:More money!? (Score:5, Interesting)
Around $2 billion, which is less than a week's trade imbalance with the US. [census.gov] So don't worry, they can afford it easily. Where were the last 10 things made that you bought recently?
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Re:More money!? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:China weather control open, US CLOSED! (Score:4, Insightful)
Lets say YOU are in charge of a secret government program to try and control the weather. If you needed to conduct these tests would you:
A. Fly planes and dump chemicals over Cleveland, Ohio. Where any joe sixpack can look up and see the results.
B. Fly planes in one of the vast territories in which the human population is so sparse that you could walk in a straight line for days before even encountering a road? Or, barring that, the Pacific Ocean?
Extra Credit!!!!
For what nefarious purpose is the US government conspiring to control the sunny days in Cleveland?
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