Slashdot Log In
Octopuses Have No Personalities and Enjoy HDTV
Posted by
kdawson
on Sun Dec 21, 2008 06:08 PM
from the or-was-that-redundant dept.
from the or-was-that-redundant dept.
Whiteox writes about an Australian researcher named Renata Pronk, who has discovered that octopuses prefer HDTV. She recruited 32 gloomy octopuses from the waters of Chowder Bay. Previously, researchers have reported little success when showing video to octopuses. Miss Pronk's insight was that the octopus eye is so refined that it might see standard PAL video, at 25 fps, as a series of stills. She tried HDTV (50 fps) and her subjects reacted to the videos of a crab, another octopus, or a swinging bottle on the end of a string. A further discovery is that octopuses show no trait of individual personalities, even though they exhibit a high level of intelligence. It would certainly be possible to quibble about the definition of "personality" employed, and whether Miss Pronk had successfully measured it.
Related Stories
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
"Octopuses Have No Personalities and Enjoy HDTV" (Score:5, Funny)
When I read that headline, I thought it applied to many of the people I know as well...
I shall name my first child Renata Pronk (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I shall name my first child Renata Pronk (Score:5, Funny)
poor boy...
Parent
Re:I shall name my first child Renata Pronk (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:I shall name my first child Renata Pronk (Score:5, Informative)
It's up to the individual. My wife prefers Mrs instead of Ms. Perhaps the researcher in question prefers Miss instead of Ms.?
You could always ask her [mq.edu.au]. (thanks slushdork)
On your doctoral point, in the above site she states that she is an Honours student. That's post-grad. Next step is Masters or Doctorate.
As she is not a Phd, Richard Macey (the author of the article ) entitled her as 'Miss'.
Parent
Octopi are Awesome! (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Octopi are Awesome! (Score:5, Informative)
jdb2
Parent
Re:Octopi are Awesome! (Score:5, Interesting)
We should selectively breed some octopi for greater life span. They are beautiful and fascinating creatures and it would be wonderful if we had some longer lived ones to watch and spend time with.
Parent
Lifespan isn't the most critical. (Score:5, Interesting)
What's hindering them from developing a civilization soon ( In geological time of course ;) is the fact that their lifespans are so short.
Humanity has been able to carry on numerous projects on a bigger scale than the average human's lifespan.
My personal idea about the prerequisite for a civilisation are :
- A decent way to interact with the environment (at least octopi have plenty of tentacles - dolphins on the other hand, however big their brain is, don't have the physically mean to put their brain at work on much things)
- A good a quite developed communication system (we humans have speech - octopi seem to have colour-changing communication)
- A life cycle including nurturing the small. If the parents of a specie have to take care of their kids during their first months/years, that gives also a chance to teach them (thanks to good communication) what they have learned to do with their arms. As opposed to animals whose children are 100% autonomous after birth and can immediately wander on their own.
That's where this whole business of "programmed death after reproduction" sucks. Not because 4-5 years is short, but because they are genetically programmed to self-destruct (or starve to death if the self-destruction glands are removed) not long after laying eggs (about the time the eggs hatch according to wikipedia).
There's no nurturing of the kids. Whatever cool and neat trick the parent octopi may have learnt dies with them. They don't get a chance to transmit it to their children.
Because of this no culture can be carried on, and with this : no civilisation.
But don't despair there's a kind of mutation called neoteny [wikipedia.org] where some individual are able to reproduce without having acquired all characteristics of adult and still retaining some juvenile trait. Some future octopi may mutate and be able to reproduce, yet not die once the eggs hatches.
Parent
Re:Lifespan isn't the most critical. (Score:5, Funny)
A good a quite developed communication system
...and that boys and girls, is the definition of irony.
Parent
Octopusses announce Reseacher has no Personality (Score:5, Funny)
Oceanianica News (Deep under Chowder Bay): In an important press release today the octopuses involved in the Cowderbay Excursion report on their scientific excursion into the ape territory to assess the intelligence and personality of the horrific to look at four creatures with four limbs that only move on two of them that call themselves humans. The 32 members of the scientific team were specially trained in observational techniques that emphasized uniform behaviors so as to minimize the impact of their presence on the lower life forms being studied.
A four limbed creature who self identifies as "Miss Pronk" was extensively interviewed and examined. She attempted to use primitive externalized colored skin image projectors to get the 32 excursion members to react. Her primitive attempts at communication failed with what she called "PAL". Then the subject attempted to communicate using something she called "HDTV" by showing images of food. At the sight of a captive octopus the excursion members elected for a quick withdrawal back to the forward base camp in Chowder Bay (human's name for it). The members of the excursion ensured at all times to not reveal any individuality by using the uniform motion training instilled in all octopus from birth.
An assessment from the team after their safe return to Aquatica City was that the human subject lacked any personality during any of the tests. She failed to move on her two upper limbs and also failed to use her lower limbs except for moving about. In addition she had enclosed herself inside an flexible and rigid outer shell and refused all attempts to leave her shell so that we could examine her personality up close.
Naturally the humans require additional study. Under no circumstances should attempts be made to communicate with them until the safe return of the captive octopus hostages can be executed.
In addition it was discovered that while some humans have an additional appendage that is usually kept in the shell the human self identified as Miss Pronk failed to accept any of the advances by the others to have her interact with this appendage. For this reason we conclude that Miss Pronk has no personality.
HDTV inaccuracies in article (Score:5, Informative)
Ok, a couple of problems here:
- Standard video is not 24 frames per second, as the original article states. That's the speed for film, not video.
- 1080i HDTV is displayed at the same frame rate as standard definition TV. In PAL land, that's 50 fields per second, which makes 25 frames per second.
- Even at 720p's 50 full frames per second in PAL countries, that does not give the perception of smoother motion. SDTV will give you 50 half-resolution fields per second, and 720P will give you 50 full-resolution frames per second. The motion smoothness will be essentially the same. The real difference is the resolution delivered with each picture.
Re:HDTV inaccuracies in article (Score:5, Informative)
1080i HDTV is displayed at the same frame rate as standard definition TV. In PAL land, that's 50 fields per second, which makes 25 frames per second.
Only if it's 1080i25/1080i30 and not 1080i50/1080i60
Even at 720p's 50 full frames per second in PAL countries, that does not give the perception of smoother motion.
Yes it does. There are no interlacing artifacts for the horizontal component of the motion.
The motion smoothness will be essentially the same
No, because the claim is that the octopus can see the individual pictures (i.e. fields) at 25/30 fps. Where there is significant horizontal motion in an a picture where each field is only updated every 1/25th of a second, the octopus may be able to see each field being updated. At 50 progressive fields per second the entire image is updated at twice the rate. This of course depends on the display type.
We have to remember that one reason CRT's look "smooth" to us is persistence of vision. We don't notice the light intensity fade over 1/25th of a second as the electron beam scans out the rest of the picture. However, the octopus's persistence of vision may be different. Imagine for a moment that the octopus see's the old "standard definition" display the same was as we see an old CRT when viewed through a camcorder: With big bands running across it due to the scanning done by the electron beam. Maybe with HDTV, where CRT technology is less likely to be used, this is no longer the case and thus the octopus sees the picture as real.
Anyway, to me this is perfectly plausible. We shouldn't be dismissive so quickly towards a behavior that has actually been observed for several subjects, even if we can't instantly explain it.
Parent
Octopuses Have No Personalities and Enjoy HDTV (Score:5, Funny)
So, in other words, they're just like most slashdotters?
Re:Octopuses Have No Personalities and Enjoy HDTV (Score:5, Funny)
--
May your tentacles catch many turtles.
Parent
"otako slashdotters" -- too punny! (Score:5, Informative)
Oh, that's just too punny -- only I'm not sure if you meant it, or just made a typo.
For those not familiar with Japanese, otaku is the word for "nerd" -- generally not in any positive sense. The word stems from the roots o-, being a generic honorific prefix to refer to things not your own (simply speaking), and taku or "residence", the underlying implication being someone who never leaves the house.
Meanwhile, tako is Japanese for "octopus".
I once heard of an idea for opening a chain of Mexican-themed seafood fast-food restaurants around Japan, called "Tako Taco"...
Cheers,
Parent
Test and control (Score:5, Interesting)
"that it might see standard PAL video, at 25 fps, as a series of stills. She tried HDTV (50 fps)"
So she changed the resolution, and the framerate... and so she now does not know if it is the pixel desity or the framerate that made the difference. In addition, it would be good to note the display type as analog and digital displays work differently...
No Personality? (Score:5, Funny)
I disagree [dailymotion.com].
Those wacky austrailian octopi games ... (Score:5, Funny)
This almost seems like an Ig Nobel coming in early. But being that this is the holiday season, I'll bite, at the expense of our Australian folks.
She recruited 32 gloomy octopuses from the waters of Chowder Bay.
Um, not for me to peck around at Australian dialect, but I think the proper word would be incarcerated.
Previously, researchers have reported little success when showing video to octopuses.
WTF?!?! Austrailian scientists: "Hey, what should we do this afternoon?" "Ah, let's show some video to the octopi." Try "Buckaroo Banzai," I think that they will like that one. It's kinda funny, if you understand octopi humor. "Miami Vice" is right out.
She tried HDTV (50 fps) and her subjects reacted to the videos of a crab, another octopus, or a swinging bottle on the end of a string.
After this treatment, I'd grab for the bottle in an instant.
A further discovery is that octopuses show no trait of individual personalities, even though they exhibit a high level of intelligence.
Just the other day I tossed a chick out of the bed, and said, "You *really* have a great personality, but you are so cold and slimy."
Me too! (Score:5, Funny)
Pronk! (Score:5, Funny)
Kinda like humans... (Score:5, Funny)
In other words, they are like 90%+ of the human population. Except for the high level of intelligence part, of course.
Re:Personality (Score:5, Informative)
FTFA:
"The definition of personality," she said, "is having repetition in your responses, for example, being consistently bold, or consistently shy, or consistently aggressive."
She went on to say that any individual octopus had random, inconsistent, reactions to the same stimuli on any random day.
Parent
Re:Personality (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Personality (Score:5, Funny)
No, octopuses are not inherently evil. You are thinking of krakens.
Parent
Re:Personality (Score:5, Informative)
-1, irrelevant pedantry
We have borrowed words or phrases into this language that include non-native morphology. With the exception of some Latin and Greek plurals, we generally ignore the non-native morphology and use our own endings. So, for example, not only is it acceptable, but it is required to say "the La Nina" or "those La Ninas" and not "*La Nina" or "*the Nina" or "*those Las Ninas" or "*Estas Ninas". The lexical item is "La Nina", which cannot be decomposed into smaller morphemes like it can in Spanish.
Another example, also Spanish-related, is the presence of a number of words of Arabic origin in Spanish that begin with "al-", such as "algodon". Originally, this was the definite article in Arabic, but it is now a meaningless part of the word in Spanish and does not prevent the use of the native definite article.
Or, going back to English, it is generally correct to use a native s-plural for words of Latin origin, except in a small set of common loanwords: "formulas", "nexuses", "moratoriums", etc. Again, this is okay because English isn't Latin and isn't required to use Latin morphology. The fact that it does at all is a more a testament to the high standing Latin had and still has in our culture. Those non-native plurals are actually affectations, rather than the rule. You don't see people generally trying to use non-native plurals with words from other languages (the less important the language, the less likely we are to use anything other than the native s-plural).
So, my point is, it doesn't really matter what the original morphology was in the language we borrowed from. We borrowed the word as "kraken" and it is not decomposable into any smaller morphemes. The correct *English* plural is "krakens" and not "kraker", "kraks" or "krakulations".
Parent
Re:Personality (Score:5, Funny)
...who can only breathe under water and then you put him in a field of broccoli, refusing to return him to the salty depths until he has picked five times his own body weight. There are few things will motivate a Mexican Octo-man to work harder than such an immediate threat to his mortality. During my days in the Raj we were sure to keep a few brine filled baths of Mexican Octo-men handy come the spring. Harvesting time is upon us, fetch the Mexicans, eh what!
Parent
Re:Personality (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, parent and I are both losing karma for this. We are getting modded up Funny (+0 Karma), and then getting modded down (-1 Redundant/Flamebait/Troll). So even though the resultant post scores are high, we are actually going backwards.
Meh, I have karma to burn
Parent
Re:Personality (Score:5, Interesting)
But whether you'll observe consistent responses to stimuli will depend on whether you're (a) measuring the right responses and (b) using the right stimuli. In this case, the stimuli were video images. Other researchers [inist.fr] have found personality differences when using real stimuli. Maybe there is something about video stimuli that overwhelms individual differences?
Parent
Maturity? (Score:5, Insightful)
So I wouldn't pass judgement on octopus personality until somebody compares younger octopuses to older ones.
Parent
Re:Personality (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Personality (Score:5, Funny)
Come to think of it, I think the plural of 'octopus' may be 'sushis'.
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Funny)
...your standard geek.
Hey, I know tons of geeks with tons of personalities... just check their character sheets!
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Funny)
I once met a guy who had to role a die to decide whether to laugh or cry.
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Funny)
It is...*rolls*...a pleasure to meet you!
Parent
Red Mage? (Score:5, Funny)
Is that you?
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, I'd have to disagree with the assessment of no personality in octopuses. I had a common octopus (octopus vulgaris) as a pet (her name was Cephus, short for cephalopod) for almost two years and she most absolutely displayed a personality completely different from another octopus that I had as a pet for about a year.
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Funny)
Ah, but were you showing them TV a lot? That tends to destroy even invertebrates'
personalities.
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Interesting)
- Absolutely!
My wife keeps salt water tanks and we had an Octopus named Oglebbie. Oglebbie was such a sweetie. (I'm calling her a female, but that is an assumption.)
We had what can only be called the classic love affair - doomed from the start..
It started with small touching with fingers/arms. It was routine - every day a few times I would put my octopus-looking hand in and she would embrace. And Pull - she wanted me to stay.
They have a very sharp beak BTW. Only try this if you are willing to get bit. She never bit me.
It was definitely love. As soon as I turned on the light she would shoot across the tank to the top door area, and I would open it .. verbally complaining at the time about never get rest.. and Oglebbie would inflate herself with water and climb out to travel across the top of tank to play.
After a sort time (few minutes) she would go back to the door and if I went over there she would shoot the water at my general direction, then dive in.
Tragic love.. She would dream of us romping across reefs, and having fun. I would want to go running through fields of flowers with her ...
One day she lost all her zing. My wife was away and I didn't keep the water level up.. the salt concentration went too high. She didn't die but she lingered, and didn't want to play - which was more torturous for me because she was there.. but not there. And it was my fault.
Thank you for sharing - I'm still getting over it.. (I really did feel terrible - and the way she seemed to haunt the tank - a fraction of her was left. It's like how your non-nerdy spouse see you when you are coding - but permanent.
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Interesting)
Thanks for the story.
Cephus died of old age thankfully and I will say that she exhibited many of the same qualities, including a sense of humor or ability to get people to pay attention to her as she would shoot water out of the tank if she wanted attention. She also snuck out of the tank on more than one occasion to steal fish out of the feeder tank across the table from her own aquarium (which necessitated a large, heavy pot to be placed on top of the tank to prevent that sort of behavior.
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Informative)
......... Actually octopus have relatively short lifespans. The first one was several months old when I got her from a lab that was doing behavioral research and the fact that he lived almost a year after that was pretty good. The second octopus was a bit of a stowaway when I found her on my SCUBA tank at a gas stop about 100 miles away from the ocean. She was tiny then and lived for almost two years which is pretty long lived for an octopus.
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd refer you to the very rich literature on octopus behavior. Octopus have been estimated to be about as smart as dogs with surprisingly adept skills at problems solving and recognition.
If you'd say that dogs have no personality, I'd say you've never spent *any* time around animals.
Parent
Re:Sounds like... (Score:5, Insightful)
There seem to be a *large* number of people who have convinced themselves that animals with the intelligecne of dogs or cats are non-sentient, and any personality or self awareness that they seem to exhibit is just the owners self-deception. I've seen smart and dumb cats, and smart and dumb dogs. There are certainly cats and dogs which seem to have no personality or mental model of the world, and act like simple stimulus-response system. There are also cats and dogs with clear personalities that interact with the world in a thoughtful manner.
I have to agree that those who say that self-awareness (or at least world-awareness, but it's hard to imagine a good mental model of the world that doesn't include oneself) is limited to humans simply haven't spent the time to know better.
Parent
Re:Correlation is not causation (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Correlation is not causation (Score:5, Funny)
People who don't understand statistics and scientific research methods, but like to pretend they are the smartest people on earth, love to say that phrase, just remember that.
I'm in good company, then. I'll remember that.
Btw, I only tried to be funny. Mabye I failed; we'll have to wait for the modding.
Parent
Re:Correlation is not causation (Score:5, Funny)
So if I understand you correctly you're saying that repeating that phrase decreases understanding of of statistics and scientific research methods?
No, correlation is not causation
I can do this all day...
Parent
Re:Did anyone read that as HGTV? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:This will help HUMANS (Score:5, Funny)
Coz when the octopi rise up and enslave us, we will know how to curry favour with our new masters.
Mmmm, curried octopus...
Parent
Re:How could they... (Score:5, Funny)
"Octopuses," Miss Pronk said, "are very smart. I have seen my octopuses open Vegemite jars by unscrewing the lid.
No, no. If they were very smart, they wouldn't open a jar of Vegemite in the first place.
Parent
Re:How could they... (Score:5, Funny)
There is a long standing law in Australia, if a child doesn't eat vegemite, said child is fed to dingos.
Parent