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Another Way the LHC Could Self-Destruct
Posted by
kdawson
on Mon Sep 29, 2008 06:58 PM
from the no-physics-whatsoever dept.
from the no-physics-whatsoever dept.
KentuckyFC writes "Just when you thought it was safe to switch on the LHC (though it won't be for a while yet), another nightmare scenario has emerged that some critics worry could cause the particle accelerator to explode. The culprit this time is not an Earth-swallowing black hole but a 'Bose supernova' in the accelerator's superfluid helium bath. Physicists have been playing with Bose Einstein Condensate (BECs) for over 10 years now. But in 2001, one group discovered that placing them in a powerful magnetic field could cause the attractive forces between atoms to become repulsive. That caused their BEC to explode in a Bose supernova — which they called a 'Bosenova,' a name that fortunately did not catch on. This was little more than a curiosity when only a microscopic blob of cold matter was involved. But superfluid liquid helium is also BEC. And physicists have suddenly remembered that the LHC is swimming in 700,000 liters of the stuff while being zapped by some of the most powerful magnetic fields on the planet. So is the LHC a Bose supernova waiting to go off? Not according to the CERN theory division, which has published its calculations that show the LHC is safe (abstract). They also point out that no other superfluid helium handling facility has mysteriously blown itself to pieces."
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LHC Offline Until April 2009 (Or Longer) 298 comments
rufey writes "The recent problems at the Large Hadron Collider will now keep it idle until spring 2009. The official press release is here. The LHC went offline due to a suspected failure in a superconducting connection, which overheated and caused around 100 of the LHC's super-cooled magnets to heat up by as much as 100 degrees. This resulted in the accidental release of a ton of liquid helium. The process required to repair the failed superconducting connection involves weeks of warming up the affected area from -456 degrees Fahrenheit to room temperature, and then several more weeks to cool it back down after the repair is made. The total amount of time to do this will spill over into CERN's scheduled winter maintenance/shutdown period, which is partly done to save money on electricity during the period of peak demand."
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Black Holes From the LHC Could Last For Minutes 672 comments
KentuckyFC writes "There is absolutely, positively, definitely no chance of the LHC destroying the planet (or this way either) when it eventually switches on some time later this year. And yet a few niggling doubts are persuading some scientists to run through their figures again. One potential method of destruction is that the LHC will create tiny black holes that could swallow everything in their path, including the planet. Various scientists have said this will not happen because the black holes would decay before they could do any damage. But physicists who have re-run the calculations now say that the mini black holes produced by the LHC could last for seconds, possibly minutes. Of course, the real question is whether they decay faster than they can grow. The new calculations suggest that the decay mechanism should win over and that the catastrophic growth of a black hole from the LHC 'does not seem possible' (abstract). But shouldn't we require better assurance than that?"
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let me assure you... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:let me assure you... (Score:5, Funny)
You had me going there for a moment, but I just checked the webcams and everything seems fine:
http://www.cyriak.co.uk/lhc/lhc-webcams.html [cyriak.co.uk]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:let me assure you... (Score:5, Funny)
While the LHC might be perfectly safe, the LHC I'm building in my basement will be extremely volatile.
Dubbed the Large Hatred Collider, its function is to see what happens when enraged 'haters' are collided at speed.
First into the test chamber are a Daily Mail [google.com] reader (who is also a confirmed supporter of the BNP [wikipedia.org]) and an enraged Digg user, who's just discovered that not everybody likes Macintosh compters as much as he does.
It is expected that the two will cancel each other out when they collide. What is unknown is how much energy will be released when this happens. Does anyone on Slashdot have an equation for this?
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Re:let me assure you... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:let me assure you... (Score:5, Funny)
e=mc^2
Where e = energy, m = the marketing power of Apple Corp. and c = the certainty of Apple fanboys exploding in a fiery rage whenever their platform choice is called into question.
In short- a hell of a lot.
Parent
This is easy (Score:5, Funny)
Does this mean we can just blame it on the Bosenova [wikipedia.org]?
Re:This is easy (Score:5, Funny)
BLAME IT ON THE BOSENOVA
Blame it on the Bosenova,
That blew up so well.
Blame it in the Bosenova,
That we're in hell.
Super-cooled He and big magnets
Turned attractive forces
Right around.
Blame it on the Bosenova,
That CERN went boom!
Blame it on the Bosenova,
That blew up so well.
Blame it in the Bosenova,
That we're in hell.
How we ended up as just a pile of ash,
When the Large Hadron Collider
Made a flash.
Blame it on the Bosenova
Pheno-omenon.
(to the tune of... well, that should be obvious!)
Parent
More Cassandra warnings... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:More Cassandra warnings... (Score:5, Insightful)
When testing a car for the first time, the worst that could happen is the tester of the car dies.
It is very easy to find one person who believes the science - and therefor is willing to test the car.
We should not expect the entire planet to be happy to "test" the LHC and its physics. We know they are safe...and don't mind testing. But some people aren't, and you can't really complain about that.
Oh and the bombs where made to end WWII, so there was obviously a very imminent need for the nuke...unlike the LHC physics...which are immensely interesting, but not really important for everyone.
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Re:More Cassandra warnings... (Score:5, Funny)
The problem is that the LHC has caused the production of strange moron particles, which seem to bump into normal people and turn them into more strange morons. The collective outgassing of stupidity causes a supernova brain implosion.
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
With the "arrow", we have invented the weapon that makes war too terrible to wage!
Cassandra's predictions were right (Score:5, Informative)
That's the point of the myth: Apollo granted her the gift of prophesy, then cursed her by making it so nobody would ever believe her predictions.
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Re:More Cassandra warnings... (Score:5, Insightful)
oh and BTW, the windshield is necessary to allow a human driver to continue breathing at today's highway speeds. it's very hard to properly exhale at 50-60 mph.
This is getting way OT, but I thought a windshield was also to protect my face from flying objects (stones, bugs, etc.). Considering my windshield just got chipped by a stone the other day, I'd rather not have to endure something like that hitting me in the eye.
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Re:More Cassandra warnings... (Score:5, Insightful)
For your information, I have no problems breathing while falling at 120mph. Goggles help though if you want to open your eyes.
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Re:More Cassandra warnings... (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:More Cassandra warnings... (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:More Cassandra warnings... (Score:5, Informative)
Uh huh. And the various (admittedly foolish) motorcycle drivers I see riding on their bikes at 80mph without helmets are just holding their breath?
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Re:More Cassandra warnings... (Score:5, Insightful)
the LHC is not a commercial corporation. it's not even an organization. it's a particle physics experiment/apparatus
CERN is the organization that funds the LHC. and they are not a commercial corporation either. they're a particle physics laboratory and research institution. they're concerned with scientific & academic research, not making money. they're driven by the desire for knowledge, not the desire for profit.
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We're scientists, trust us. (Score:5, Insightful)
True, but, no other SFH2 facility was wielding a 1Tev particle beam like it was a toy light saber, either.
bad physics, bad press (Score:5, Informative)
An expanding BEC isn't anywhere close to a supernova. This would be similar to snapping the valve off of a liquid helium tank. The guys at CERN could blow themselves up with this, but that's about it. They could blow themselves up lots of ways.
It was called a "bosenova" because it shrinks before it expands, not because it's super destructive.
the monkey's are afraid (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:the monkey's are afraid (Score:5, Funny)
Moonwatcher said to ask you to please quite disparaging semi-simian anthropoids. After all, HE's not frightened, and he's got a big black (or clear, if you prefer the book) slab to back him up.
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Look at your CPU (Score:5, Insightful)
The physics that allow us to build 5GHZ chips at 5nm is due to a thorough understanding of the atom. Our understanding of the atom is due to work done in 'atom smashers' like these.
This is not pointless science. Yes, we don't know what we will find, or how we will use it, but we will find something, and we will find it useful.
I can't say what history will record about the LHC. But it will be important, I can grant yo that.
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Re:the monkey's are afraid (Score:4, Insightful)
Throwing a single molecule of H20 into the Pacific ocean would have a much larger effect than what the LHC is capable of.
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LHC Joke of the Day! (Score:5, Funny)
A: Nothing
Worser (Score:5, Informative)
Could it be worse than melting a 40-ton magnet, which actually happened?
First Law? (Score:5, Insightful)
In this (imaginary) case, the energy in would be that of the magnetic field. Trying to spin this as a possible supernova plays on ignorance, is scaremongering, and is just plain wrong.
When did Slashdot turn into Fox News?
Re:First Law? (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:First Law? (Score:5, Informative)
In addition, magnets have been run at that temperature before.
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Law of conservation of energy (Score:5, Interesting)
I know it's out of vogue, but I'd like to point out that if the LHC were to explode in a fireball whose energy exceeded the energy we put into it, it'd be a good thing for science -- imagine a new energy source we can use to power our further expansion into the universe?
The law of conservation of energy makes for some very unsexy conclusions, like the lhc is probably fairly safe from destroying the universe.
Re:Law of conservation of energy (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
I'm from a small town (Score:5, Funny)
and we used to blow stuff up for fun when I was a kid. Now I work in an MRI research lab.
This sounds like something I need to try tomorrow.
Give me a friggin' break... (Score:4, Interesting)
.
At best, this is one notch above voodoo....
Why is this news? (Score:5, Interesting)
From the summary:
"So is the LHC a Bose supernova waiting to go off? Not according to the CERN theory division, which has published its calculations that show the LHC is safe. They also point out that no other superfluid helium handling facility has mysteriously blown itself to pieces."
So, a "Bosenova explosion" under LHC-like conditions (1) can't happen according to theory, and (2) hasn't happened according to experiment either. Sheesh. I can concoct LHC disaster scenarios that are impossible according to theory and experiment too. Can I get on the Slashdot front page?
Trust Top Geeks (Score:5, Funny)
I'm sure glad there's more certainty in economic and finance theory than physics; otherwise banks would be ....... we're fucked
But it DID destroy the planet. . . (Score:5, Funny)
It went on line and the economy crashed.
Coincidence? I think not. Clearly it takes unbalanced chaotic systems and collapses them into the state most likely to actualize. The cloud of dreams which has been our economy since Reagan began inflating it with voodoo has been begging to collapse for some time. Thank-you Higgs Boson! Clearly, the LHC is a kind of Probability Drive.
I look forward to seeing what will happen next when they get it up and running again. If they run it in reverse, maybe it will turn missiles into potted plants and whales.
-FL
Yeah, right. (Score:4, Funny)
Doomsayer from "Little Nicky" (Score:4, Insightful)
Holy shit! We really ARE all gonna die!
DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!
Pardon my snark. We've had particle particle accelerators for HOW long now? This is simply a bigger and better one.
Did we all die from those?
Did we all die when trains got faster than 50Mph?
Did we all die when we were finally able to surpass the sound barrier?
Did we all die in an ignited atmosphere when the Trinity test went off?
This stupid fucking technophobic bullshit is REALLY wearing on my nerves.
If you don't like it, move to Mars already and set up a hunter-gatherer utopia there. Just stop yammering in my fucking ear about how we're going to all kill ourselves fiddling with low mass particle collisions.
Press/Public Wants it Stopped (Score:5, Insightful)
I admit that in not fully understanding as a whole the general science behind the LHC that I'm hesistant in having the experiment go on. I studied biology but particle physics lost me a long time ago. I think its neat that the technolgy, knowledge and scientists are available to have this experienment come to fruition. Moreover, the contruction of the LHC is amazing.
The problem: The public sees the media as being the credible source of information. Not the physicists at CERN nor independent ones.
I think that the public and media are hesitant to have the experiment go on because they really don't understand or remeber anything about science past 9th grade (if that even). Whether the reason (religion, education, moral, fear, end of the world, conspiracy theory, etc.) it seems that this is the same resistance to other science experiments of the past. Nuclear weapons had the same public reaction (and the world is definately not the same since then). But more comparatively 'simple' things in complexity either science-wise or the ability for the public to understand the science behing it like the Human Genome Project, Stem Cell research, Robotics have met the same media and public resistance. The world will end with Dolly the Sheep.
Particle physics is tough to understand. I've read the articles in the AP and watched some slightly more detailed interviews with CERN scientists. The general public isn't buying it. I think the CERN guys should do a piece for a major magazine(s) or newspaper. PR is where it's at.
Phase change (Score:4, Insightful)
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Re:Phase change (Score:5, Funny)
Or it could split the planet wide open if the uninformed hyperbole gets to hot and detonates.
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Re:Phase change (Score:5, Funny)
And now we finally know how the ancient Atlantians created the moon and killed off the dinosaurs all at once.
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Re:Phase change (Score:5, Informative)
also, lolwtfsig
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Re:Phase change (Score:5, Insightful)
If you have a cup of super-cooled water, and tickle it so that it suddenly freezes, it's going to release a lot more energy that you used to trigger it. I don't understand the math here, but I think that (even though a BEC is a "cooler" phase than liquid) transition from a BEC to a liquid releases energy. Perhaps liquid helium just takes up more space than superfluid helium, so a rapid transition would be bad? In any case, rapid state changes in a material can release or consume more energy than is used to trigger the state change.
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Re:Phase change (Score:4, Informative)
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Re:That would be bad (Score:5, Funny)
Depends which side you ask.
None, because after careful analisis we've determined it won't happen
-Science
An explosion that would likely cause the END OF THE UNIVERSE AND KILL GOD! (add video clip of a van exploding)
-Fox News (story at 11)
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Re:That would be bad (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:I was worried, but am ok now (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know how this FUD even came up. It's such a ridiculous idea to begin with.
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Sure! Okay! Yeah right! (Score:4, Funny)
The kind who actually understand science?
Man... are you in for a surprise. Sorry, but we're just the general public, who can't be bothered to learn how our garbage disposal really works. Too gross.
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