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Mayor Orders Mandatory Evacuation of New Orleans
Posted by
Soulskill
on Sun Aug 31, 2008 09:35 AM
from the everybody-out dept.
from the everybody-out dept.
Pickens writes "City officials ordered everyone to leave New Orleans beginning Sunday morning — the first mandatory evacuation since Hurricane Katrina flooded the city three years ago — as Hurricane Gustav grew into what the city's mayor called 'the storm of the century' and moved toward the Louisiana coast. 'This is the real deal. This is not a test. For everyone thinking they can ride this storm out, I have news for you: that will be one of the biggest mistakes you can make in your life,' said New Orleans mayor, C. Ray Nagin. Already, hundreds of thousands of residents had begun streaming north from New Orleans and other Gulf Coast areas stretching from the Florida Panhandle to Houston. Bush administration officials took pains not to be caught as flatfooted as they were in Hurricane Katrina, announcing that President Bush had called governors in the region to assure them of assistance and that top federal emergency officials were in the region to guide the response. 'We could see flooding that is worse than what we saw with Katrina,' said Louisiana Governor Jindal."
The US Geological Survey will be running a real-time "Map of Hydrologic Impacts" to monitor flood levels, and the National Weather Service has charted direction and wind-speed probabilities. Reader technix4beos points out the need for IRC transcription of FEMA and NOAA feeds.
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what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's below sea level in one of the most hurricane prone places on earth. Why are rebuilding and living there?
Make it an industrial zone and be done with it. Use the money to permanently relocate the population, not rebuild their soon-to-be blown away homes again.
Re:what the hell? (Score:4, Insightful)
Economics - New Orleans is a major port that services nearly 2/3 of the land area of the US. Not to mention the petroleum industry, fishing, cruise ships, etc... etc...
This isn't Sim City where you can just 'declare something an industrial zone' and call it good. Where you have industry, you also have to have (nearby) the people to operate the industry and the people who support them. Which means in turn, the whole infrastructure enchilada - roads, schools, hospitals, etc. etc.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Interesting)
This isn't Sim City where you can just 'declare something an industrial zone' and call it good.
Apparently you've never heard of a zoning commission. Those morons do it all the time.
Where you have industry, you also have to have (nearby) the people to operate the industry and the people who support them.
Apparently you've never heard of New York or LA. Can't afford to live with an hour of some places.
They should go ahead and rebuild the port and industrial infrastructure, then build some mass transit(light rail, it's cheaper per tile:) to the nearest STABLE and ABOVE SEA LEVEL region and put the residential & commercial there.
That way they just have to repair the tracks and the "stupid end" of the rail system when it floods and nobody drowns.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
It's below sea level in one of the most hurricane prone places on earth. Why are rebuilding and living there? Make it an industrial zone and be done with it. Use the money to permanently relocate the population, not rebuild their soon-to-be blown away homes again.
Although New Orleans had its share of tough hurricanes, Katrina was the first big one that turned it into the costliest hurricane in US history. It was also ranked the sixth strongest hurricane to hit the US.
Your comment is insightful, but I'd only argue like this if this troubled area was hit by hurricanes more frequently than it currently is. Forcing people to leave their homes is more than just a material loss. There's history, lost ones and more.
At the same time, you could easily use this argument for places like Tokyo and other areas that are and will be struck by tremendous earthquakes.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Funny)
At the same time, you could easily use this argument for places like Tokyo and other areas that are and will be struck by tremendous earthquakes.
And monsters. Don't forget the monster attacks.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
At the same time, you could easily use this argument for places like Tokyo and other areas that are and will be struck by tremendous earthquakes.
I get real tired of hearing the earthquake or {Insert misc. disaster here} argument. It's generally rather large areas that are vulnerable to earthquakes, the same can be said for tornadoes and hurricanes. The difference is that while there is a wide coastal area that is vulnerable to destruction from hurricanes, New Orleans is the one that's frigging underwater.
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Re:underwater vs. earthquakes (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:underwater vs. earthquakes (Score:5, Funny)
California doesn't drop chunks into an abyss every time the power drops out.
Thankfully not, what with rolling blackouts.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
We can't force millions of people to move, but they can't force millions of taxpayers in other regions of the country to fund their decision to live there either.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
We can't force millions of people to move, but they can't force millions of taxpayers in other regions of the country to fund their decision to live there either.
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. A million times yes! Let people live there if they want, but there's a huge time consistency problem that creates moral hazard when you give people federal money to build there again.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
The Microsoft campus is built on solidified mud that flowed down during the last big eruption of Mount Rainer. In fact the entire Seattle/Tacoma area is at risk from such an eruption including Microsoft, the PacNorth software industry, and Boeing. Where do you suggest we move Seattle?
And while every local area should have good emergency planning in place, and Louisiana's prior to Katrina was not and did not, it was always my belief that in a true disaster situation the federal government, backed by the goodwill of the entire nation, should and would step in to help to the limits of human capability. Turned out, not so much.
sPh
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Interesting)
Bullshit.
FEMA has been a clusterfuck sense day-one (or at least the '80s which is the first data point I have). Talk to any former FEMA employee or contractor. FEMA has never been able to find its ass in the dark. FEMA shadow government tinfoil hatters are flat out funny.
Katrina's emergency response from the feds was very similar to previous storms. What changed was the magnitude of the disaster AND the gross ineptitude of local authorities and _citizens_.
There is a cost of learned helplessness beyond dependence on the dole. When it came time for them to do for themselves they fell flat of their faces (as will most).
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Wrong on all counts (Score:5, Insightful)
Funnily enough, I happened to be in Louisiana during Katrina and happened to be working for the government at the time. A small portion (like 25%) of our state's national guard was in the process of standing down from Iraq when Katrina hit, and they were actually rotated into the city during the aftermath because our governor wanted to try and save face and look tough by deploying "combat hardened troops" that will "shoot to kill." One of the main Reserve bases in Louisiana, funnily enough, is IN New Orleans and the other 75% of our National Guard was sitting on their asses waiting for orders, as they were under control of the state government, not the federal government. Bush moving in and federalizing those troops would have been seen as a huge violation of states rights and an assurpation of power, as essentially the only legal basis he could have used for it would have been to declare the state of Louisiana to be rebelling and essentially removed the state government from power. In hindsight, that probably would have been a better option.
FEMA, funnily enough, responded more quickly to Katrina in New Orleans than they did to Andrew in Homestead, FL. The cynic in me would say that's because of the demographic differences between the two locations, but such baseless theorycrafting serves no one. FEMA (and pretty much any federal disaster relief agency) is in fact paralyzed without local and state government support and cooperation, as their primary role is organization and logistics; ie: figuring out who needs what and seeing that they get it. They need state and local governments (like the national guard, state police, etc.) to provide the actual manpower to accomplish anything, and in the case of Katrina our lovely (and unsurprisingly deposed) governor just sat around and dithered while people died. She even admitted herself (not realizing that the cameras were on) that she should have sent the guard in earlier and when the president offered to take over for her (since she was obviously in over her head) she told him she'd think about it and get back to him in 24 hours.
But of course, it's obviously Bush's fault, he's such a big meanie that Blanco was too scared to call and ask for help...
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
And therein lies the problem - entitlement. Folks seem to think that they're entitled to live wherever they want, without repercussions. If something bad happens, the Fed will bail them out, right?
Folks seem to have lost an ability to take responsibility for their actions. If you choose to live in an earthquake/flood/volcano zone, fine. I respect your freedom to choose. However, don't come complaining that something bad happened to you, expecting me to pay for your decisions. I think the country's goodwill response to folks displaced by Katrina was phenomenal. I'm completely offended by the folks who bitched about it being "not good enough."
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Interesting)
Bzzzt. I'm not talking about some mythical "safe" zone. Everywhere has risks. However, I fail to comprehend why someone in Arizona should be paying into a fund to support flooding in Louisiana. Similarly, the Louisiana folks shouldn't be paying into a drought fund for Arizona. Choose an area to live in; accept the risks associated with doing so. DON'T live there with a Government Bail-Out being your disaster plan.
I have a "go kit." The wife and I have discussed our disaster plan, and know *exactly* what we need to "get out, right now." We can grab the kids, abandon non-essential stuff, and be on the road in about 10 minutes. Seriously. We understand the regional risks where we live, and are prepared accordingly. I *expect* exactly zero assistance from the government. That, it would seem, is my point.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, in that case...we need to stop sending all that tax money to the Federal govt., and start keeping it to ourselves to fund our needs and rebuilding zones.
And...one big help for LA, would to be to just take posession of all those nice oil rigs/drilling operations and leases for sure from the Federal govt. and keep all that lease and royalty money for ourselves, rather than having it go into the US general funds. With that, we could MORE than take care of our rebuilding problems.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Informative)
When Rainer goes, and when it likely blows apart Redmond and Tacoma, it'll be like a nuclear device went off, look at Mount St Helens to see the effects. A Hurricane, even Cat 5s, don't cause that kind of damage.
24 megatons thermal energy (7 by blast, rest through release of heat) in seconds, a Cyclone releases 10 megatons of thermal energy every 20 minutes, on average. 300 mph blasts...
Pyroclastic Flows - At least 1,300 ÂF, what does a hurricane have to compare to that?
When Rainer goes off, the damage it could do will be more than all of the hurricanes that hit a major metropolitan area like NO.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, that is exactly what we need to do....do it right like the Netherlands did for Amsterdam, which is much farther below sea level than NOLA is.
One major thing that would protect NOLA, is to rebuild the wetlands, nature's barrier to the storm surrge. That alone would help...and much of it was destroyed by the laying of all the oil pipelines from the gulf into shore, which helps bring in much of the energy needs of the country as a whole. Also,fill in the MRGO (Mississippi River Gulf Outlet), which should have been closed off before Katrina...it acts as a direct pipeline for storm surge, and as it narrows increased its speed and force...that is what largely wiped out the 9th ward and the lower parishes.
The city of New Orleans IS important not just to the people there, but, to the nation. It is there for a VERY special reason, as the port city at the end of the MS river. A great deal of imported goods comes in through there, and a large majority of the goods exported from the middle of the US goes through there. It does not make sense to go further up the river. Also, a great deal, I think 30% or more of the oil/energy comes through there and is refined not far away...you have to have a city close to house the people that work those oil rigs and refineries...not to mention the fishing industry that works out of near there and below NOLA...supplying a large amount of seafood to the country.
Those are just the practical economical reasons that NOLA is important to the nation...and is worth the investment...don't even have to mention the contributions to US culture from there, nor the fact that the city is historical, and pre-dates the United States itself.
But for those that bitch about the rest of the country footing the bill for idiots that live there...do consider that most EVERY city in the US is in some danger zone from nature. How many times (annually at least) do we hear about the wildfires and mudslides that plague CA? You do know that New York city has the same nightmare hurricane scenario that NOLA does don't you? It is way overdo....SF has its earthquakes, the midwest has floods and tornadoes (Didn't we just see Iowa flooded out for the 2nd time in like 5 years?)...
The thing is...we all are in this country together, and need to help each other out...but, it should be done right, and unfortunately in this day in age, it seems impossibe somehwo to get things fixed right. The Army Corps of Engineers blew it on the levees that failed during Katrina. There has been a great deal of evidence of substandard repair on the levees this time around, and they haven't even attempted to build them to greater standards to resist a Cat 5 storm, which should be the plan. Do it right once, and be done with it....
But really...it isn't like NOLA is the only city that is in almost constant jeopardy of natural disaster...yet we don't hear people bitching about all the other cities that keep getting damaged or blown away. And at the very least, do consider the base economical importance that NOLA and the surrounding regions have to the US as a whole before you start spouting off nonsense like moving an entire fucking city and its people. If that is the argument, then lets be fair and suggest to most everyone else in CA that in in wildfire zones to relocate, and lets move NYC, since it is a hotspot for terrorist attacks, and the coming hurricane there...just to be proactive. Does that sound ridiculous? Yep...on all counts.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
This time they are going to make the opposite mistake. And McCain-Palin (sounds like a comedian) will be going off to campaign in the disaster zone during the disaster.
This is the reason they have a VP, or rather one of the few uses that has been found for a VP. You send the VP off to the disaster zone because they have the same clout and get it fixed capacity as the President in those situations but only require one tenth the amount of secret service etc. entourage. When Bush visited New Orleans to make a PR stop after it was realized he had blundered, they shut down relief for a day.
It is all deeply unserious, its about managing the next news cycle, not getting stuff done. Bush did not need to go to NOLA, he could have demonstrated he was in the loop by holding daily press conferences in the White House.
James T. Kirk made the exact same mistake in Star Trek TOS. When it came to TNG they realized that it somewhat strained credibility to have the captain of the ship lead the away teams each week. That was clearly Riker's job.
And talking about unserious choices, manipulation of the news cycle etc, I wonder which VP would be more competent in a situation like this.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree.
The town closest to me (on the Ohio River) was was nearly wiped out during the '97 flood. The government helped them once to move out of the area. The response for those that decided to rebuild in the flood plain? No flood insurance, no disaster insurance and no help if happens again. Private insurance won't touch it. Good luck.
Don't forcefully stop people from making dumb decisions, but don't subsidize it either.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh yes they can. They federal money to rebuild after Hurricane Flossy, Hurricane Betsy, and Hurricane Katrina and they'll get more money this time.
Any politician with the common sense to say "Hey, rebuilding here again is a bad idea" would be demonized as wanting to move people from their homes and probably called a racist.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seeing as New Orleans is the largest port in the world by gross tonnage, I don't think it'd be too easy to just shut down.
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Re:what the hell? (Score:5, Informative)
America isn't going to function without a port at New Orleans. Incredible amounts of produce from the breadbasket of the country flow through that port. You can't run that port without a city to support it. New Orleans is important to the economy of the entire country.
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Where is "safe"? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Where is "safe"? (Score:5, Informative)
Where in the world *isn't* there a natural disaster waiting to happen
Some parts of northern Europe, at least. It's actually a bit boring.
(Every now and then there's a storm that brings down a few trees. We do call those "disasters")
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Re:what the hell? (Score:4, Interesting)
Just because you spent your weekend trip to New Orleans puking in a gutter in the French Quarter instead of listening to jazz, I wouldn't assume that means it's "just a ghetto" and no longer the home of jazz. Every year, at the N.O. Jazz and Heritage Festival, hundreds of internationally renowned local acts play some of the most innovative and exciting jazz you'll ever hear.
And, as far as "Most of the great places where jazz got its start" being gone, the last time I checked, Chicago, Kansas City, Newport, Memphis and New York are still there. And, if you're so inclined, you can still hear the real thing.
In fact, here in Chicago, at 8:30pm tonight I'm going to check out some guy named "Ornette Coleman" when he headlines at the Jazz Festival, under the stars in Grant Park.
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Re:Huh? (Score:5, Insightful)
There is nothing wrong with people devoting their time, energy and money preserving New Orleans. It's your life after all. The problem is when you discover that you don't have enough and need to take some of my money too.
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Oh for goodness sake... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Oh for goodness sake... (Score:5, Insightful)
About 100,000 people got the hint last time(unless it's taking them 3+ years to walk back from Texas), so 2 or 3 more large hurricanes in close repetition should have the place cleaned out.
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Re:Oh for goodness sake... (Score:5, Interesting)
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Is this allowed in the US? (Score:4, Interesting)
Are the mayor really allowed to do this? Last time New Orleans had an evacuation there where looting of the abandoned properties. Should it not be up to the owners to them self decide if staying behind to defend it is worth the risk or not?
Disclaimer: I am European. I don't think the government would have any problem doing it here. But are not Americans more concerned about their liberty (for example to risk drowning and looters) then we are?
Re:Is this allowed in the US? (Score:5, Informative)
It's a bit of a misnomer. They can't and don't force you to leave. They sweep the area and strongly suggest you leave, but they won't make you. In Florida at one time they (Charlie) had you list your next of kin so they knew who to contact.
It basically means that if you decide yo stay, you are on your own.
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Re:Is this allowed in the US? (Score:5, Insightful)
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You can't defeat nature (Score:5, Insightful)
So New Orleans is likely to be flooded yet again, but this is not a unique occurance. Florida is often trashed by hurricanes, and here in the UK much of our housing is on flood-plains, and some of our villages are crumbling into the sea due to coastal erosion.
You can't beat nature, but we've all got to live somewhere, and there is normally a very good reason for a settlement to be where it is.
It's a balancing act. Sometimes you need to put resources into sustaining a town/city, and elsewhere this may be inappropriate. The big question is 'Who decides?'
Real-time Transcriptions... (Score:4, Informative)
We do have a pressing need for personnel who can type fast, have a good ear for "American" dialect, and is willing to spend several hours transposing into IRC.
Please head to the linked wiki (either wiki.interdictr.com [interdictr.com] or gustavwiki.com [gustavwiki.com] ), or directly to the irc.freenode.net and join #interdictor
Cheers, see you there.
"Hurricane Relief" sites already in the works... (Score:5, Interesting)
http://www.dshield.org/diary.html?storyid=4954 (dshield.org)
"Here we go again - Hurricane Relief Sites
Remember three years ago when hurricanes Katrina and Rita hit the US Gulf coast? On the day Katrina hit New Orleans hundreds of donation sites appeared online, many if not most were scam sites. Well this time around it looks like the people who like to register domain names in anticipation of a storm's arrival have already started registering them for Gustav and Hanna. I'm not suggeting that they are up to no good, but simply pointing out that the rush has started and we need to make sure our users are aware of the potential for scam sites appearing online in the next few days."
This is Andrew, not Katrina (Score:5, Interesting)
The forecasts are powered by Linux (Score:5, Interesting)
The National Hurricane Center [noaa.gov] did an excellent prediction job, just as they did with Katrina. The storm is almost exactly on the predicted track from the last three days. It's all done on Linux [computerworld.com]. The forecaster's desktops run Red Hat Linux. The back end systems run Linux. The supercomputing clusters run Linux.
What I'm sick of (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm sick of people calling out Bush for a slow response to Katrina. There's plenty to dislike about Bush we don't need to make crap up.
For anyone who for some reason doesn't know this: The federal government cannot go in and provide aid in a place like post-Katrina New Orleans unless the governor asks for it. It's against the law and the very basic nature of our country for the federal government to just go and do that kind of stuff. The governor in Louisiana was slow to ask for aid and was therefore slow to get it.
Bush actually tried to pass a law that would allow the federal government to quickly respond to such disasters and he was accused of trying to take over with an oppressive hand.
Seriously, I dislike Bush as much as the next guy but I'm not so stupid that I can't see the reality of a situation.
Re:News for nerds huh? (Score:5, Funny)
That frickin falling tree will knock out your INTERNET ACCESS dweeb!
That's fricking news to some of us!
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Re:Lessons of Katrina? (Score:5, Funny)
I really just curious - do feds or anyone from government did their work _after_ Katrina?
Of course they did, they're highly trained professionals after all.
They put up signs
However they didn't expect Gustav and forgot to translate them in German.
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Re:I'M NOT LEAVING NEW ORLEANS (Score:4, Insightful)
Unless a FEMA limo drives me out this city. I'm Black, I demand it! If not, I'll stay and loot!
Why mod Funny? I am sure this is happening. I am sure there will be chopper rescues on CNN. And I am sure we will pay for people who refuse to take care of themselves. (Not just those unable to) We saw it in Houston the first time, and most people I know used up all the compassion they had then...
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Re:The mayor's statement: (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:The Shock Doctrine (Score:5, Insightful)
The Cato Institute is a neo-liberal/neo-conservative "think tank" and lobby group. Of course they're trying to attack Naomi Klein
And your point is? By the same token: Naomi Klein is a leftist, so of course she is trying to attack free economies. But that isn't what undermines her argument, what undermines her argument is that it is false.
Read Norberg's full report here:
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9384 [cato.org]
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Re:Fuck it (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Fuck it (Score:5, Informative)
...and guess what. All democrats. Learn your history. Stop being a drone.
Apparently you think history stopped in 1964. Maybe you should pay attention to what happened since then: pretty much all the Democrats who opposed integration and civil rights legislation had become Republicans by the end of the 1960s. One of the very few exceptions was, yes, Robert Byrd, who has over and over recanted his racist views, apologized for the evil he did, and worked hard for racial equality. For decades now, the KKK crowd has been the property of the Republican Party.
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Re:Fuck it (Score:5, Informative)
Care to cite the links between the KKK and the Republican party. Apparently I'm uneducated since I failed to find any.
Don't try to pretend I said something I didn't. I said "the KKK crowd" rather than just "the KKK" quite deliberately; there aren't really any links between any political party and the KKK itself any more, because except for a few die-hards the KKK as an organization has been pretty much defunct for decades -- thanks in large part to the efforts of Democratic Presidents Kennedy and Johnson, and Democratic Attorneys General Kennedy, Katzenbach, and Clark. By "the KKK crowd" I mean, of course, the sorts of people who would be Klansmen if it were still socially acceptable ... including, again, almost all the ex-Dixiecrats except Byrd, who nearly alone among his contemporaries had the guts not only to admit that he was wrong, but also work to do something about it. Meanwhile, Thurmond's and Helms' spiritual heirs go Republican in overwhelming numbers.
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Re:Fuck it (Score:5, Insightful)
Byrd's a Republican now? Shit, when did he switch parties?
When his party changed around him, Byrd saw the error of his ways, apologized, and set to work trying to undo the damage he had done. Most of his "Dixiecrat" contemporaries, like Thurmond and Helms, never did ... so they went over to the Republicans, who welcomed them with open arms.
It's simultaneously amusing and sad how Republicans have to reach back decades to find slurs for Democrats, while the current Republican Party presents such a target-rich environment for those Democrats with the guts to take advantage of it.
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Re:Sigh (Score:4, Insightful)
Because the last time a hurricane hit the Netherladns was... uhh... never? The fact that it's deep below sea level is not what makes new orleans problematic, but its proximity to one of the few places in the world that have big big storms.
Ok, katrina was the first big one, but now is coming the second one, and maybe in five years we'll see the third and so on. I call it basic survival instinct to leave and put your family in other place.
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