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NASA's Mars News Is Not Life, But Perchlorate
Posted by
kdawson
on Mon Aug 04, 2008 09:01 PM
from the somewhat-less-than-alive dept.
from the somewhat-less-than-alive dept.
leighklotz writes "In an update to the little green men story of not-life-on-Mars, NASA has twittered: 'The buzz this weekend was due to an interesting soil chemistry finding, still preliminary, but now avail here:' where 'here' is NASA Spacecraft Analyzing Martian Soil Data. The exciting bit: 'Within the last month, two samples have been analyzed by the Wet Chemistry Lab of the spacecraft's Microscopy, Electrochemistry, and Conductivity Analyzer, or MECA, suggesting one of the soil constituents may be perchlorate, a highly oxidizing substance.' Also, 'NASA will hold a media teleconference on Tuesday, Aug. 5, at 2 p.m. EDT, to discuss these recent science activities.'"
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White House Briefed On "Potential For Life" On Mars 610 comments
Veeoh writes "FTA: It would appear that the US President has been briefed by Phoenix scientists about the discovery of something more 'provocative' than the discovery of water existing on the Martian surface. This news comes just as the Thermal and Evolved Gas Analyzer (TEGA) confirmed experimental evidence for the existence of water in the Mars regolith on Thursday."
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Contamination? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
These are intermediate results, and should be treated as such. From TFA,
The team also is working to totally exonerate any possibility of the perchlorate readings being influenced by terrestrial sources which may have migrated from the spacecraft, either into samples or into the instrumentation.
Parent
Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
These are intermediate results, and should be treated as such. From TFA,
The team also is working to totally exonerate any possibility of the perchlorate readings being influenced by terrestrial sources which may have migrated from the spacecraft, either into samples or into the instrumentation.
Wouldn't it be amusing if some joker, before launch, had sprinkled a handful of dirt into the analysis chambers? (And by "amusing", I mean in the "How close do you think I can steer this ocean liner to that iceberg?" sort of way.)
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
Eh, maybe. First, Mars missions aren't launched from the SS cargo bay, but often (and virtually always for interplanetary missions) the Delta 2's have solids attached for boosting as well as a solid third stage. But it's rare for launch material to get into a payload. If something did get in, it's likely to be a particle or two, not a whole spray, so it is possible only one sensor was contaminated.
But we'll hear soon enough. Either that, or that perchlorate was left by some gooey, amoeba-looking alien of the week that feeds on salt...
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
Quit giving the martians ideas.
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
This means that neither the propellant or the resultant chemicals are perchlorates, so this substance can be ruled out as a contaminant due to propellants. So contamination theory is out. See also the following excerpt from the same site you sourced:
Will Phoenix's descent thrusters alter the composition of its landing site?
Altering the chemistry of our landing site due to our thruster exhaust is unavoidable. The Phoenix Lander uses hydrazine, a hypergolic propellant that turns into ammonia during combustion. So essentially, we are spraying the surface with ammonia and a small amount of hydrazine that was not combusted. The way we get around that is by 1) knowing that we are going to be producing ammonia and 2) by designing the wet chemistry cells to carefully quantify the amount of ammonia in the regolith. We then use this information to interpret our other results.
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Informative)
Scientific American reported that "The fuel in the thrusters that Phoenix used to land on Mars was made of hydrazine, not perchlorate."
http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=perchlorate-found-on-mars-makes-soi-2008-08-04 [sciam.com]
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Re:Contamination? (Score:5, Funny)
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Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, me neither.
Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Informative)
Wikipedia is your friend:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate [wikipedia.org]
Perchlorates are the salts derived from perchloric acid (HClO4). They occur both naturally and through manufacturing. They have been used as a medicine for more than 50 years to treat thyroid gland disorders. They are also used as an oxidizer in rocket fuel and explosives and can be found in airbags, fireworks, and Chilean fertilizers.
Now, do you know what that means?? We could have tons of Chilean fertilizers YEAH!!!!
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Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Funny)
Chilean fertilizer is a euphemism for bird shit.
Holy Cow, there are birds on Mars...
Slashdot.... deductive reasoning at it's best.
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Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Informative)
Don't miss the point!
Perchlorates mean OXYGEN! They can breath the stuff AND make rocket fuel! The chemistry is relatively simple too! - 4 oxygen atoms for every potassium (I read somewhere NASA found concentrations of potassium).
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Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Funny)
If NASA hypes this up a bit, we'll be SO there next year!
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Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Insightful)
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Re:Holy cow, do you know what what this MEANS? (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah, me neither.
I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with the earlier Viking Labelled Release [space.com] (LR) experiments, as mentioned in this post [slashdot.org].
According to that link, the LR experiment gave a positive result for life. But since a complementary experiment gave a negative result, an alternative explanation posited for the LR data was that there was an oxidising agent in the soil that created a false positive. Since perchlorate is an oxidant, perhaps these latest data represent a conclusive explanation of the Viking LR results as a false positive?
In other words, the data would point to the non-existence of life on Mars. (But that's just a wild guess, I should add.)
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GW Bush (Score:4, Funny)
So who had the job of explaining this to Pres. Bush, and how long did it take before he understood?
So what exactly are they saying? (Score:4, Interesting)
Because it sure sounds like "whole heck 'o alot of rocket fuel just lying on top of frozen water on a planet with 38% of the gravity of Earth"
Sounds like it would make space travel / trips to / from Mars dramatically easier.
Why this is important to non-chemists (Score:5, Informative)
OK, so at first I read "highly oxodizing" and was thought, "neat; now they know why Mars is rust colored." However, even after RTFA, I was still clueless as to why I should care. Luckily, Wikipedia comes to the rescue.
From the wiki [wikipedia.org]:
Both potassium perchlorate (KClO4) and ammonium perchlorate (NH4ClO4) are used extensively within the pyrotechnics industry, whereas ammonium perchlorate is a component of solid rocket fuel. Lithium perchlorate, which decomposes exothermically to give oxygen, is used in oxygen "candles" on spacecraft, submarines and in other esoteric situations where a reliable backup or supplementary oxygen supply is needed. Most perchlorate salts are soluble in water.
So, it seems to me that the important discovery is that there could be a relatively massive supply of a chemical compound which is able to produce breathable oxygen, if and when we can ever get people to Mars. If this is indeed the case, then YES, this is exciting news, a whole lot more important than why Mars is red, and is on the level of the sort of thing that the President might want to know about.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Get your ass to Mars!
Re:Why this is important to non-chemists (Score:5, Informative)
First water, now rocks that you can burn to get oxygen. All we need now is a monkey and some sausage vines. "Robinson Crusoe on Mars" is beginning to look more and more plausible.
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Re:Why this is important to non-chemists (Score:5, Funny)
So, you're saying that after we send all of the people with The Right Stuff to Mars, that they'll end up just as fat as the average America, but will at least have an excuse?
I know... but I've got karma to burn.
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Perchlorate (Score:5, Funny)
Oxygen Generation (Score:5, Informative)
Perchlorate does three things:
-Treats thyroid gland disorders
-Used as rocket fuel
-Used in generating oxygen (O2) chemically
Seems like good happenstance to land on a planet with frozen water on tracts of rocket fuel and solid oxygen-generating salts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator
Mars + highly oxidizing substance + Governator (Score:5, Funny)
Great - a planet made of perchlorate (Score:5, Funny)
RS
I never... (Score:5, Funny)
NASA has twittered
God help us.
Re:I never... (Score:4, Interesting)
Or maybe Twitter is more useful than the average Slashdotter wants to believe. I was baffled last time when I read the Slashdot reactions on Identi.ca and microblogging. Apparently people here have never heard of microblogging as a way to keep in touch with one's friends.
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Or maybe not? (Score:5, Interesting)
Or maybe not, based on data from the Viking missions:
http://www.space.com/news/spacehistory/viking_life_010728-1.html [space.com]
"Photos taken on Mars' surface of a Viking magnetic experiment on both landers show material clinging to the magnets. That suggests to Levin that whatever the surface processes are on Mars, they are not innately highly oxidizing. A highly oxidizing soil would convert magnetized materials to oxidized forms. Therefore, the magnet would be free of such particles.
"Similarly, the Mars Pathfinder mission in 1997, Levin added, also had significant amounts of magnetic material adhering to magnets attached to the spacecraft.
"Levin said that the paradigm of a Mars sterilized by a highly oxidizing surface is "too embedded in our scientific fabric to be set aside even by demonstrated proofs. He points to a John F. Kennedy quote that says 'the great enemy of truth is often not the lie --deliberate, contrived and dishonest -- but the myth -- persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.'"
I wish they would just admit it already!! (Score:4, Funny)
This would clear up a few things (Score:5, Informative)
Re:This would clear up a few things (Score:4, Insightful)
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds the most discoveries, is not "Eureka!" (I found it!) but "Hm...that's funny..." ~Isaac Asimov
Parent
Perchorate is not a substance! (Score:5, Informative)
It is an ion. Was it perhaps Calcium perchlorate, hydrogen perchlorate or something else. Maybe it was Uranium perchlorate?
Saying it was perchlorate is as meaningless as saying that the sea is full of hydroxide, In fact H20 is hydrogen hydroxide - or water. We need a more meaningful statement...
same as Viking results? (Score:4, Interesting)
I recall it was Carl Sagan who suggested biological life was locally anti-entropic and one should look for chemical disequilibriums like free oxygen or methane. Over time these substances naturally move into lower energy states through chemical reactions if life wasn't present. However, planetary surfaces and interiors may not be closed energy systems. Mars soil is bombarded by solar UV; Io is heated by Jupiter tidal stress. These energy injections can create life-like chemical disequilibriums too.
Re:Ramifications? (Score:4, Funny)
Perchlorate can be used for explosives ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perchlorate ) and suggests the presence of unlawful combatants on Martian soil.
Parent
Re:Ramifications? (Score:4, Funny)
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Re:Ramifications? (Score:5, Funny)
I am the Lorax I speak for the trees...and algae, and bacteria, and...
...you oxymetabolistic-centric bastard.
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Re:Is this considered fuel for a return trip? (Score:5, Informative)
So as I understand it, perchlorate can be used to make rocket fuel.
Sort of -
Perchlorates are oxidizers, which technically are not the "fuel" in the reaction. Oxidzers are, however, the stuff that is somewhat dangerous to handle / transport - the fuel is normally a rather ordinary substance (i.e. in black powder the fuel is charcoal, in modern rockets, powdered aluminum)
A catalyst is required, but the less you have to ship to mars, the easier it is...
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News Conference on Tuesday LunchTime (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.nasa.gov/news/media/newsaudio/index.html [nasa.gov]
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Re:Listen To James Lovelock (Score:4, Interesting)
There is no life on Mars because life would effect the atmosphere in ways discernible to us.
So where'd all the methane come from ?
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Re:Retro-Rockets?..... (Score:4, Informative)
No Mars probes used perchlorates. And even if some did...do you realise the difference in scale between miniscule amounts such probe would care and the whole f***ing planet?
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Re:Retro-Rockets?..... (Score:4, Informative)
This sounds SO, SO, SO improbable.
At least to me. Ya think they land in previously landed places?
I mean its a whole planet. It would seem to me that if you calculate a, say 1000 kilometer radius from your landing site that is "clean" (noone landed inside the circle) by our records, this posibility you point out is highly improbable to happen.
Even more so if you pick the lannding at random.
In any case, i would be astonished to find out that they knowingly went in and landed in a contaminated site: everything we touch there we contaminate.
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