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Ohio Researchers Advance Heat Reclamation Technologies
Posted by
timothy
on Sun Jul 27, 2008 04:30 PM
from the from-warmy-to-volty dept.
from the from-warmy-to-volty dept.
Downchuck writes "Researchers at Ohio State University claim to have synthesized a new material capable of delivering electricity directly from heat, at an efficiency far better than existing thermoelectric materials. Scott at ArsTechnica has an interesting take: 'Merge this with the new MIT solar dish and you're in business!'"
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Yeah, frying ants with a parabolic is cool and all (Score:5, Interesting)
But I like this [enviromission.com.au] better.
Finally! (Score:5, Funny)
Finally, we have a truly renewable source of energy - we can just harness all the hot air coming from our politicians.
Technical point (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Technical point (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Technical point (Score:4, Funny)
The other campaign may call it pandering, but I think the American people deserve a temporary holiday from the Laws of Thermodynamics.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I also propose a 90-day gravity holiday, during which time I will get rich selling flying cars.
Re:Technical point (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
What's hard is converting the "water" into "wine"...
So what you're saying is that Jesus can create electricity directly from heat? I'm confused...
Re:Technical point (Score:5, Informative)
heat != temperature
But you are right that you have to have a cold reservoir to get any work from the system. But heat in thermodynamics is not the same as temperature, and it generally denotes the amount of transfered thermal energy between two systems of differing temperature.
I'm assuming that the cold reservoir is the cooler temperature air surrounding the device.
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Technical point (Score:5, Informative)
But quadrupling them would. The old max zT these researchers were improving was about 0.87. They've now got it to about 1.5. And are targeting about 3.0 in their current research.
Freon refrigerators have a zT of about 3.0. Which makes these new materials look directly competitive with them for cooling when they reach that efficiency. Since zT 1 materials are about 10% efficient, zT 3 will be able to reclaim about 30% of waste heat. That would be about 20 points of the ~60% of gasoline energy wasted as heat in car engines. Since car engines are about 20% efficient now, that would mean doubling their fuel efficiency.
If these materials can be made, deployed, and recycled with close to (or less than) the energy inputs required now to make the car radiators/manifolds/exhaust systems they'd probably mostly replace, the benefits would be revolutionary.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re:Technical point (Score:5, Interesting)
The Technology Review [technologyreview.com] article about the tech is more specific about the material's heat/electricity conversion efficiency. Evidently the current zT:0.87 material is about 6% efficient; the zT:1.5 material already achieved therefore is about 10% (about 10.3448276%) efficient. A zT:3.0 device is about 21% (about 20.6896552%) efficient.
10% of the 60% of gasoline's energy content wasted as heat is 6% of the gasoline's energy. If the car got the average 20% fuel efficiency, that extra 6 points would be 30% more than the original 20%. A zT:3.0/21% would be 12.6 points extra, or 63% more than 20% to 32.6%.
A 30MPG car today would get 39MPG tomorrow with the current version material. It would get 48.9MPG with the forecast zT:3 material.
What I'm really interested in seeing is how embedding the higher zT materials inside fuelcells boost their efficiency. Because fuelcells aren't heat engines, they're not limited to the Carnot Cycle's 40% max efficiency. They already get 50% efficiency or greater at "native" voltages (like 1.48V), where their max theoretical efficiency is 83%. But still, much of their 17%+ inefficiency is generating heat. So they can be even more efficient with heat reclamation, perhaps in practice actually approaching that 83% efficiency.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Yes but if we were driving our cars around on Pluto, even a tiny temperature gradient could be made to do far more useful work than the same difference in temperature on Earth. This planet is a little too warm for these gizmos and so you see signs of desperation such as thallium.
We need to build a giant ring in space that orbits the sun and keeps the Earth in perpetual shadow. That would allow a wider selection of designs for engineers trying to use exhaust heat to turn wheels. Of course, that's only if you
Put that in a power plant? (Score:4, Insightful)
Hot technology (Score:3, Interesting)
But there are a lot of areas where heat is produced, and some of this could be used to get extra electricity.
Maybe the most important point, at what cost? how rare/expensive is that new material? If is very, maybe the main use would be not for our normal lifes, but maybe for i.e. space probes.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe the most important point, at what cost? how rare/expensive is that new material? If is very, maybe the main use would be not for our normal lifes, but maybe for i.e. space probes.
Lead is very cheap, Tellurium is about 20 some odd dollars per pound, but Thallium is damn expensive. In the late 90's Thallium was running about $600 per pound. That said, I'm not sure how much Thallium will be needed for this application.
Re:Hot technology (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
Geothermal plug in (Score:3, Interesting)
Detailed Scientific Analysis Here (Score:5, Informative)
The article at the Green Car Congress site titled New Approach to Developing Thermoelectric Materials Doubles Efficiency" [greencarcongress.com] has a lot more scientific details than that article linked from the summary, especially on the actual formula that determines "zT", which is the thermoelectric conversion efficiency coefficient:
And also detailed nanomaterials engineering analysis of the quantum structure of the quantum chemistry's thermoelectric effects.
The comments attached to the fine article... (Score:5, Informative)
... contain a link to a possibly more useful article with some more comprehensible numbers:
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/21125/ [technologyreview.com]
e.g. The device could increase fuel efficiency of vehicles by approximately 10 percent.
2. ??? (Score:2)
Merge this with the new MIT solar dish and you're in business!'
Ah cool, now we know:
Themoelectrics Already Pretty Good (Score:5, Interesting)
Even though that article linked from the summary says that typical engines in cars get about 25% of the gasoline's energy content into car motion, it's actually about 20% [wikipedia.org]. That's a lot of wasted energy: about 4:1 waste:use.
But lots of combined cycle plants [wikipedia.org] (like CCGT gas turbines) reclaim a lot of their waste heat into more power. Taking a maximum mechanical power extraction of 60% of the gas' energy up to 85% by heating steam, which is an additional 25% of the original mechanical power.
CCGT reclamation tech is probably not practical for vehicles, so this new material is a welcome advance. Especially if the researchers get the zT from its new 1.5 high to its predicted 3.0 or so. But in fact DARPA has funded Trinh Vo at Lawrence Livermore National Labs to grow nanowires that already have a zT at 3 [llnl.gov].
More of that kind of material research is very welcome, because at zT 3, these materials can replace freon refrigerators with the same electrical efficiency. Since freon refrigerators require lots of energy to build, and then to recycle, replacing them with a simple material that can scale to any size (including very small, as in microelectronics), means a vast sector of modern industry, including transportation, could switch. If making the material is less energy intensive, and less reliant on a limited critical resource than the freon refrigerators or the CCGT reclamation systems, global energy efficiency could take a giant leap.
A leap that could be just around the corner, in Ohio.
Re: (Score:2)
>at zT 3, these materials can replace freon refrigerators.
Uh, how? The Freon cycle can give EERs of 15.
An average Peltier device has an EER of under 0.4.
The numbers don't seem to work out.
Re:Themoelectrics Already Pretty Good (Score:4, Informative)
"A thermoelectric material designed to replace a conventional Freon-gas refrigerator [llnl.gov] must have a ZT of at least 3."
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
But this new material is already projecting a zT:3 as part of their current scope of R&D.
A Technology Review [technologyreview.com] article explains that in car engines, these zT jumps deliver efficiency from the old 6%, to the new 10%, looking at 21%. So it seems that this material does quite well at that hard job.
Re: (Score:2)
It would also likely have dramatic health & nutrition impacts in developing countries, as refrigeration becomes economically accessible to people who would not previously have been able to afford it.
That might partially offset the energy savings, but since it would have direct benefits in reducing food wastage, it's still a very good thing.
Power Efficiency Rating? (Score:2, Insightful)
Old news (Score:2)
Here's a link to the cached Nature article : http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:RV6U7lxRqFUJ:www.nature.com/nsu%255C/nsu_pf/020128/020128-3.html+quantum+laser+heat+car+exhaust&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us [209.85.141.104]
jdb2
Link to paper (Score:2)
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/quant-ph/0105135 [lanl.gov]
jdb2
I have a cheaper way (Score:2, Funny)
Just attach a generator to the lower jaws to my husband and his mother. The energy they produce by moaning about the heat should cool the whole of Cologne for the summer.
What is the %Efficiency of a 1.5 zT? (Score:2)
This advance's benefits are all described in terms of an increased zT [wikipedia.org] now up to 1.5, predicted to go up to 3 or so in the really perfected version of the material. But what does "zT" mean in actual efficiency?
In real terms, let's say that a car engine today consumes about 300KW total contained in its gasoline flow, converting about 20% of that into 60KW for forward motion, and about 60% of that into about 180KW of heat (out the exhaust, and heating the engine/radiator, car and road). If the zT 1.5 material
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
zT doesn't tell you the efficiency because that would depend on the delta T (next para), but it is roughly proportional to it for given operating conditions. zT = 1 materials have efficiency maybe around 5% under best conditions, for zt = 3 yo
Nuclear Reactors (Score:2)
Imagine a Geothermal Cluster of This Stuff (Score:2)
If this stuff can efficiently convert heat to electricity with very little energy input to manufacture it (compared to, say, steam engines), and can withstand high temperatures without being destroyed, what would it do to geothermal electric production?
Would it not only increase the efficiency of the plants, but perhaps also make accessible lots of geothermal that is expensive to reach with today's bulky mechanical probes? Could we just drill to hot depths, then snake cables down it, and "plug into the grou
Pity it sounds pretty poisonous (Score:5, Insightful)
An achievement made up of toxic elements, the first being rat poison, the last being the rarest there is. Chances are this won't be cheap to make nor to dispose of, and I wonder what hazards it would pose to the environment if released (vehicles do crash or get abandoned from time to time).
But how does it compare to the JTEC? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:For those who didn't RTFA: (Score:5, Informative)
And since I can't make hyperlinks correctly on slashdot, I'll try again: thallium [wikipedia.org].
Nasty stuff, as its compounds are very easily absorbed through potassium uptake pathways in your body, but behave very, very differently from potassium. I seem to remember a chemist friend telling me that if you deal with thallium, you practically need an entirely separate lab for it.
Parent
Thallium (Score:3, Interesting)
Thallium accumulates in your testicles. I remember hearing stories about labs handling thallium where only women were allowed.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Thallium (Score:5, Funny)
Thallium accumulates in your testicles. I remember hearing stories about labs handling thallium where only women were allowed.
Well, the article does explicitly state that "The material does all the work."
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"I remember hearing stories about labs handling thallium where only women were allowed."
True. While I was at the U of I my chemistry professor was trying to stick thallium atoms to a cyclopentadiene molecules for some odd reason. The students working on it were all girls.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
my chemistry professor was trying to stick thallium atoms to a cyclopentadiene molecules for some odd reason.
Usually when they stick goofy metals on organic compounds they intend for the metal to be replaced with some organic moiety. The metal guides the reaction so that the organic replacement attaches to the right carbon atom. Thallium cyclopentadiene is a starting material for prostaglandin synthesis. You add methoxymethyl chloride to it, and the methoxymethyl group replaces the thallium and you get meth
Re: (Score:2)
I'll take the continuation of gradual environmental change with its multiple solutions over widespread exposure to fast-acting poison, thank you very much.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
It's doped with thallium, that means that the thallium is imbedded in the metal alloy. I don't think it's going anywhere.
Re: (Score:2)
If there's no issue, then there's no issue.
Re:So, this is a reverse peltier? (Score:4, Informative)
This allows better RTGs, but they would only be marginally efficient for, say, reclaiming computer case waste heat. This is especially so as you can't put them on the CPU directly, where the differential is great, because they are insulating as well. You will need to put it at the radiating end, over a large surface.
Parent
Peltier devices work both ways (Score:3, Informative)