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Supercomputer Adds Credence to Standard Model

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on Fri Feb 29, 2008 08:22 PM
from the start-watching-for-vogons dept.
Supercomputing Science
ScienceDaily is reporting that researchers at the University of Edinburgh and Southampton in cooperation with partners from Japan and the US have shed some light on the Standard Model of physics using a new computer model. "The project's enormously complex calculations relate to the behavior of tiny particles found in the nuclei of atoms, known as quarks. In order to carry out these calculations, the researchers first designed and built a supercomputer that was among the fastest in the world, capable of tens of trillions of calculations per second. The computations themselves have taken a further three years to complete. Their result shows that the Standard Model's claim to be the best theory invented holds firm. It raises the stakes for the riddle to be solved by experiments at the Large Hadron Collider at CERN, which will switch on later this year. Physicists' efforts to confront Standard Model predictions using the most powerful computers available with the most precise experiments offer no clues about what to expect."
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[+] Entertainment: CERN Scientists Looking for the Force 284 comments
An anonymous reader writes "National Geographic has a fascinating article on the God Particle, which can help explain the Standard Model and get us closer to explain the Grand Unified Theory. The obligatory Star Wars-angle summary is even better: 'CERN's scientists, the fine people who brought us the W and Z particles, anti-hydrogen atoms and hyperlinked porn web pages, are now hard at work building the Large Hadron Collider to discover something even cooler: the Force. Yes, that Force. Or like physicists call it, the Higgs boson, a particle that carries a field which interacts with every living or inert matter.'"
Feed: Supercomputer Confirms Theory Of The Universe by sdfeed (1083223)
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  • Wow! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Why does the number 42 come to mind?
    • ...but a Clearwater Revival does.

    • No! (Score:4, Funny)

      by TheWanderingHermit (513872) on Friday February 29 2008, @09:11PM (#22607474)
      I am Vroomfondle and that is not a demand, it is a solid fact.

      We are philosophers (though we may not be). We are here as representatives of Amalgamated Union of Philosophers, Sages, Luminaries, and Other Professional Thinking Persons and we want this machine off and we want off now.

      What's the use of our sitting up all night saying there may (or may not be) a God if this machine comes along next morning and gives you his telephone number?

      We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!

      You'll have a National Philosopher's Strike on your hands!
    • Well, the word "supercomputer" has 13 characters. 14, if you count the terminating '\0'. The supercomputer was running for 3 years. Now 3*14=42. That should explain it. :-)

  • Boycott ScienceDaily (Score:5, Informative)

    by jnana (519059) on Friday February 29 2008, @08:33PM (#22607258) Journal

    I wish people would stop posting crappy science articles from ScienceDaily and related sites.

    From this article, we learn that computer modeling confirmed something "about the behavior of quarks". That's it. There is nothing of substance in the article other than this and that the computation took three years.

    • Re:Boycott ScienceDaily (Score:5, Informative)

      by wizardforce (1005805) on Friday February 29 2008, @09:08PM (#22607454) Journal
      it's much worse than that, the article was pretty much mirrored from the source university of south hampton article here: http://www.soton.ac.uk/mediacentre/news/2008/feb/08_31.shtml [soton.ac.uk] which has absolutely nothing to add on the subject. three years of work and they don't even say what it is that they were modeling... what exactly was the point? perhaps a better article is required like the one here: http://www.physorg.com/news121963192.html [physorg.com]

      • The first two sentences from the physorg article give more information than the entire ScienceDaily article:

        A new calculation, reported in the January 25, 2008 issue of Physical Review Letters, confirms the six-quark theory of particle-anti-particle asymmetry. This is the first complete calculation of this phenomenon to employ a highly accurate description of the quarks that adds a fifth dimension beyond those of space and time.

        Which was my point exactly. Thanks for the link.

    • Re:Boycott ScienceDaily (Score:5, Informative)

      by ortholattice (175065) on Friday February 29 2008, @09:22PM (#22607514)

      I wish people would stop posting crappy science articles from ScienceDaily and related sites.
      I've found a better site to be http://www.eurekalert.org/ [eurekalert.org] which is run by the AAAS (American Association for the Advancement of Science) and has less annoying ads. A very high percentage of ScienceDaily stories - although oddly not this one - are the same as those on Eurakalert, but Eurakalert seems to have them first (at least based on RSS feed). I think Eurakalert also provides the original press release from the university/organization - not a watered-down, clueless-journalist-rewritten "adapted from materials provided by [university/organization]" - and also gives the link to the actual "materials", usually not provided by ScienceDaily.

      • Thanks for the reference. Eurekalert does look much better than ScienceDaily.

        I get most of my science news from Science News [sciencenews.org], which I'm really happy with, but they are a little slower (and more thorough), so a bit behind the quickest to publish.

        I just wish Slashdot editors would exercise some judgment. A good first step would be never linking to ScienceDaily.

    • From TFA: the Standard Model, which encapsulates understanding of all the material that makes up the universe.

      The Standard Model actually encapsulates understanding of just under 5% of the material which makes up the Universe. ~20% of the material is dark matter which is not consistent with any SM particle and ~75% is dark energy which we don't even have a good theory for!
      • I'm pretty sure Haken and Appel would take exception to that.

        • I'm pretty sure Haken and Appel would take exception to that.


          What did they model? The answer is: nothing, because math is not reality. They used a computer to create a proof of a mathematical problem. The rules of the problem do not map, or even purport to map, to the real world.
          • And yet the proof was all about mapping the real world...
            • No it wasn't. It was about coloring regions of an area when the regions are restricted to certain arbitrary criteria. For example it does not apply to non-contiguous regions.

          • math is not reality
            I'm glad you cleared that up for us. I was confused.
            • You'd be surprised at how many people don't understand that fact.
                • No I mean that the arbitrary rules of logic and construction that are mathematics do not control or define the laws of the universe. Math is a language no different than any other language. The fact that I can describe something in English doesn't make what I describe a reality. Why would something I can describe in math be any more real?

                  • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

                    by TapeCutter (624760)
                    "Why would something I can describe in math be any more real?"

                    Don't know, but it often is - perhaps maths is just mapping the functioning of our perceptions. Anyway because math has been usefull we continue to use it to model the real world and make testable predictions. TFA is describing a prediction that the LHC may falsify.

                  • No I mean that the arbitrary rules of logic and construction that are mathematics do not control or define the laws of the universe. Math is a language no different than any other language. The fact that I can describe something in English doesn't make what I describe a reality. Why would something I can describe in math be any more real?

                    I disagree. Knowledge of math is a priori, language is not. There is a reason for this. While we still haven't unlocked all of the secrets of mathematical modeling th

      • Re:Boycott ScienceDaily (Score:5, Insightful)

        by jnana (519059) on Friday February 29 2008, @09:36PM (#22607580) Journal

        All this has done is said "We made a computer program that gives us the results we would expect from running this computer program."

        No, it's not nothing more than a tautology as you're implying. You're ignoring the nature of the program, which aims to embody the standard model well enough to make predictions about reality for phenomena that it's not been possible to directly observe. It's a little more than just a program that spits out arbitrary but predictable results, since the results do in fact have some relation to reality. If the model is any good at all, the correspondence will be very good.

        Nothing in computer modeling makes a connection to reality and truth.

        You must also believe that computer models of aerodynamics that predict a racecar will experience less drag than a Hummer also have no connection to reality and truth. I'd argue that to the extent that a model makes accurate predictions again and again, there is some connection to reality and truth.

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Score Whore (32328)

          You're ignoring the nature of the program, which aims to embody the standard model well enough to make predictions about reality for phenomena that it's not been possible to directly observe. It's a little more than just a program that spits out arbitrary but predictable results, since the results do in fact have some relation to reality. If the model is any good at all, the correspondence will be very good.

          If you can't observe the phenomena in the real world, then how do you know the model has any correspo

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by jnana (519059)

            If you can't observe the phenomena in the real world, then how do you know the model has any correspondence?

            The whole point is that many phenomena are observable, and predictions by the model have been verified again and again. Those that cannot currently be verified may be verified in the future, and if they are falsified, that tells us that one of the simplifications that was made in order to create the computer program was not warranted or that there is some factor that our program failed to incorpora

          • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

            by dario_moreno (263767) *
            the point is that 99% of physical equations are non-linear, N-body, ordinary or partial differential equations and thus do not have an analytical solution. So the only approach to check if as you say the hypothesis are correct is numerical. Even the great Fermi had to recur to an army of mechanical calculators staffed by humans to see if his equations had a meaning. Since Galileo mathematized physics there have been 300 years without computers so people (and teaching up to nowadays) are used to approximatio

  • Uncertainty (Score:5, Funny)

    by Sorthum (123064) <slashdot@s[ ]estered.net ['equ' in gap]> on Friday February 29 2008, @08:36PM (#22607266) Homepage
    So they talk about how fast this new supercomputer is.

    I presume that means they have absolutely no idea where it is?

  • Higgs (Score:5, Informative)

    by Lord Byron II (671689) on Friday February 29 2008, @08:44PM (#22607310)
    Before we claim that the Standard Model is the end all of particle physics, lets see if we can find the Higgs Boson. Afterall, Fermilab has come very, very close, so the LHC should be able to seal the deal.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by dreamchaser (49529)
      I'm pretty sure Fermilab found the Higgs on a few occaisions. It's just that procedure calls for a certain number of data points before making such claims. It's still quite possible that Fermilab will announce solid findings on the Higgs before the LHC really even picks up steam. Either way, we should know in the next couple of years.

      I for one am hoping they find something totally unexpected with the LHC.

      • I for one am hoping they find something totally unexpected with the LHC.

        As cool as that would be (and I think it is actually quite likely) I tend to be more impressed by a new observational tool that finds exactly what was predicted then one that is used to "look at new weird stuff". Serendipitous discovery is good, but observational confirmation of what you think you know is the bread and butter of science.

  • Like what they used the supercomputer to calculate? I already RTFA, and tried a Google search.

  • It has to be said... (Score:3, Funny)

    by Toe, The (545098) on Friday February 29 2008, @09:02PM (#22607420) Journal

    Supermodel Adds Credence to Standard Computer

    Did Dell get Gisele Bündchen as a spokesmodel or something?

  • the researchers first designed and built a supercomputer that was among the fastest in the world, capable of tens of trillions of calculations per second. The computations themselves have taken a further three years to complete.

    If my own purchases are any indication, three years out the damned thing's now completely outmoded, and a pocket calculator will do the same thing ...

  • An article with actual substance (Score:5, Informative)

    by Vellmont (569020) on Friday February 29 2008, @09:05PM (#22607440)
    Rather than "they used a supercomputer to do physics"

    http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/PR_display.asp?prID=08-x5 [bnl.gov]
  • Supercomputer Confirms Standard Model Theory Of The Universe, Deepens Puzzle

    ScienceDaily (Feb. 29, 2008) -- Scientists have used a supercomputer to shed new light on one of the most important theories of physics, the Standard Model, which encapsulates understanding of all the material that makes up the universe. This 30-year-old theory explains all the known elementary particles and three of the four forces acting upon them - however, it excludes the force of gravity, which is its shortcoming.

  • I asked my supercomputer... (Score:5, Funny)

    by NotQuiteReal (608241) on Friday February 29 2008, @09:11PM (#22607476) Journal
    "Is the Standard Model correct?"

    I only had to wait a few seconds for the answer: "Reply hazy, try again".

  • Observable phenomenon(s) > Theory.


    I would have to agree. Observations tend to provide "eureka" information that theory might miss or not become main stream for a while. Running models can extol supercomputers to a point - and peer reviews may be a big obstacle to the progress of science in many ways. I hope CERN offers us some groundbreaking material.

    • Theory and Experiment equally important (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Roger W Moore (538166) on Friday February 29 2008, @10:17PM (#22607740) Journal
      Observations tend to provide "eureka" information that theory might miss or not become main stream for a while.

      I completely disagree. It is only when theory and observation both agree that you have a "eureka" moment. For example we have an observation that there is lots of dark energy (not dark matter - that is different) in the universe. However, so far, there is no good theory as to what it is. I don't seem to remember anyone going "Eureka! We have discovered dark energy!". Rather everyone is sitting around scratching their heads and wondering what it is.

      To get a Eureka moment you must have BOTH theory AND experiment in agreement. The SNO experiment is an excellent example. Experiment: not enough electron neutrinos coming from the sun; theory: neutrinos can change flavour from electron to tau or muon so the total flux of neutrinos will be correct; experiment: SNO measured the total neutrino flux and discovered that it agreed with solar model predictions while still seeing a reduced electron neutrino flux. Result: EUREKA! Neutrinos oscillate!

      Conclusion: theory and experiment are both EQUALLY important to advancing science. One without the other may be interesting but not very useful.
      • There is also the slight possiblity that we asked the wrong question.
        • There is also the possibility that the computer might discover exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here. The end is near!

          Or should I say the reboot?

    • Of course, no gravity! (Score:4, Informative)

      by l2718 (514756) on Friday February 29 2008, @09:27PM (#22607538)

      Gravity -- certainly the weakest force -- is completely irrelevant as far as the physics of elementary particles is concerned. In real life there is no way to observe any kind of gravitational interactions on the scales where the other forces are relevant. In particular, if there is physics just beyond the standard model it need not have any connection to gravity. It's true that gravity is relevant on extremely large scales, but for these scales we have perfectly good theories (GR; in fact Newtonian gravity is quite sufficient in almost all cases). You'd have to go to Planck scale before there'll be any guarantee of gravitational effects playing a role.

      This is not to say that a quantum theory including gravity is not an important goal of theoretical physics, it's just to say that so far we have not found any real-life situations where such a theory would be needed, that is when corrections due to quantum gravity would play any role whatsoever. Hopefully the LHC will probe the physics beyond the standard model. The number of orders of magnitude between the energy scales we can actually observe and the quantum gravity energy scale make it extremely unlikely, however, that gravity will be relevant to experimental fundamental physics for many millenia.

      • often contain the most important answers

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by kestasjk (933987)

        Gravity -- certainly the weakest force -- is completely irrelevant as far as the physics of elementary particles is concerned.
        Unless you're talking about the big bang, which is what this computation is all about trying to understand.

        • Unless you're talking about the big bang, which is what this computation is all about trying to understand.

          Actually, this computation has nothing to do with the big bang. This a computation is about trying to see whether we can make sufficiently accurate (computer) calculations within QCD (our theory of quarks and elementary particles made from them) to understand particles at ordinary energy scales. This is actually quite hard (for reasons that would be hard to explain here). Making sure QCD correctl

    • It's been several years since I've taken any physics courses, but I seem to recall that gravity is the weakest of all the forces. At the subatomic scale its effects are negligible compared to the other forces. It makes a large impact in the cosmic scale due to the distance at which it works as well as the large mass of celestial bodies compared to, say, their electromagnetic charge.

    • I'm just trying to think of how I would react, knowing that a computer was going to take 3 years to finish a task. Can you imagine staring at the status bar for that?

      I'm copying 2GB of photos from a share to my pen drive under Vista right now, so I don't have to imagine it.

    • I'm just trying to think of how I would react, knowing that a computer was going to take 3 years to finish a task. Can you imagine staring at the status bar for that?

      Now given that the speed of computers supposedly doubles every 18 months, instead of building a computer now and let it number-crunch for three years, you could wait 18 months while letting your money earn interest; then buy the then biggest computer and do the same computation in half the time...

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