Fish Can Count to Four

Khemist writes "Fish can count, according to scientists, who have found that North American mosquito fish have the ability to count up to four. Previously it was known that fish could tell big shoals from small ones, but researchers have now found that they have a limited ability to count how many other fish are nearby. This means that they have similar counting abilities to those observed in apes, monkeys and dolphins and humans with very limited mathematical ability."

Makes sense

[clonan (64380)]

They are in School!!!

(Yes I know, I know! It is a stupid joke)

Clever Hans

[suso (153703)]

Have they ruled out the Clever Hans [wikipedia.org] effect? Doesn't look like it.

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[aproposofwhat (1019098)]

Well if there is a Clever Hans effect, it's even more astounding, because it would imply that these fish are able to pick up on the experimenters' body language!

Re:Clever Hans

[esocid (946821)]

Have you seen a mosquitofish? Those things are most likely not able to discern body language and cues from humans nearby. Even if they were, I doubt that the fish had any interaction with humans during this experimentation. In TFA the females were observed being harassed by male fish and given a choice of either a 3 fish or 4 fish school, and chose 4 over 3. Those characteristic decisions were on par with human infants 6-12 months old, which is pretty impressive for a type of minnow.

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[suso (153703)]

Did you ask them? Humans can notice things on a large scale, like weather changes, a supernova, etc. Why couldn't fish see at our scale. Maybe its not even that, perhaps starting the experiment triggers something that we are not aware of.

I Can count to Four...

[Jeremiah Cornelius (137)]

...therefore; I am a Fish!
Q.E.D.

Now, back to this fascinating "Dianetics" you were talking about....

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[immcintosh (1089551)]

Given the setup of this experiment, I don't see how this reference is even remotely applicable. I would say that the "Clever Hans effect" may be ruled out by default.

Re:Clever Hans

[spun (1352)]

I doubt researcher in the field of animal intelligence would know about this completely obscure effect. I mean, it's not like the clever Hans case was a seminal event in the field of comparative psychology which completely changed the way everyone did animal experiments for the past 100 years. Thanks for bringing up this little known incident.

Sorry, sorry, it's a pet peave of mine when some /. poster thinks that scientists don't consider the most obvious and well known aspects of their field. If you, someone not in their field, have considered it, chances are pretty damn good they have too.

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[hullabalucination (886901)]

Could you please speak up? I'm hard of herring.

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[dgatwood (11270)]

My clownfish, you're gonna have a halibut time making people laugh with that old joke. That said, something does seem fishy about the whole situation.

Hmm. Something tells me you just got schooled.

Or not..

[Brian Gordon (987471)]

Neurons fire when a certain threshhold of other neurons are firing around them, does that mean they can "count"? It's an electrochemical reaction, not intelligence.

Re:Or not..

[clonan (64380)]

By that deffinition please explain how "intelligence" is any different...it is bigger, more complex but still the same general idea.

BTW they never said that fish were "intelligent" only that they could descern 4 from 3.

That could...

[jd (1658)]

...be hard to do, without a working definition of intelligence. (This is the bane of all studies on intelligence in animals, computers, etc. Until someone can determine what it actually is that people are trying to look for, nobody can be certain whether or not they've found it. All they can be sure of is that they've found something, where the something has properties in common with another something that is believed associated with what they're really interested in.)

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[esocid (946821)]

TFA didn't mention any brain monitoring. It simply observed whether a fish preferred to enter a school of 4 or 3 fish when being harassed. So it can discern the difference between those two, either because it can tell 3 from 4, or the school looked bigger. Either way, it can tell the difference between a small number of fish and a larger number of fish. Can your dog do that?

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[Brian Gordon (987471)]

I'm not talking about brain monitoring, I'm just using it as an example of other "counting" in nature that doesn't have any sort of thought behind it. And the reason I say thought is because the article summary says counting like fish can think.

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[Bloke down the pub (861787)]

Either way, it can tell the difference between a small number of fish and a larger number of fish. Can your dog do that?

I doubt it, my dog isn't interested in fish at all.

Is not... Is so?

[spacey (741)]

Apparently it's been demonstrated that our basic ability to count to around 4 is controlled by specific neurons firing upon recognition of the specific quantity. That's why the OP spoke of fish having the same basic ability to count as apes, people with learning problems, etc. See http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/03/03/080303fa_fact_holt [newyorker.com] on page 3 for this:

"Dehaene has been able to bring together the experimental and the theoretical sides of his quest, and, on at least one occasion, he has even theor

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[2names (531755)]

I wonder if this subitizing (on a much larger scale of course) is what we see in savants when they are able to seemingly instantly count high numbers of objects, e.g. the spilled toothpicks in Rain Man.

Re:Or not..

[Ed Avis (5917)]

"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine can swim." -- Dijkstra

I think a similar principle applies to this experiment. They showed that goldfish can count to four. Whether this signifies 'intelligence' in some abstract sense is a different question, and not really relevant here.

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[soren100 (63191)]

Neurons fire when a certain threshhold of other neurons are firing around them, does that mean they can "count"? It's an electrochemical reaction, not intelligence.

All humans have going for them is electrochemical reactions in neurons as well (in terms of intelligence). If your statement was at all correct (which it isn't) you would be "disproving" intelligence in humans as well.

Research on fish intelligence is showing some interesting results -- here is an impressive video of fish swimming in unison in response to hand signals . Science is busily proving that fish are smarter [nootropics.com] than most people realize [telegraph.co.uk].

If you believe in the theory of evolution, which most Slash

Interesting fish video

[soren100 (63191)]

Sorry for replying to my own post, but here's the fish video [youtube.com] that I was referring to in the previous post.

The trainer gets four goldfish to swim in some very interesting synchronized patterns that he appears to communicate to them through hand signals.

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[Brian Gordon (987471)]

Oh come on, quit questioning "but what does intelligence really mean?" this is not even close to intelligence. Nor is the trainer communicating with his goldfish, they've just recognized through manipulation of food/pain what they're supposed to do when they notice a particular pattern. Don't even think of saying "but isn't that communication?".. that's so far from real symbolic communication that it's almost as aburd a comparison as neurons firing to counting.

Hmm...

[mckinnsb (984522)]

"Limited mathematical abilities?" I wonder if they can shift left one bit...

one fish, two fish

[stoolpigeon (454276)]

red fish, blue fish

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[jd (1658)]

But only blue fish can speak whale.

Does that make it "1 in 4"?

[Loibisch (964797)]

Does that mean the child molestion rate among fish is even higher than among humans [slashdot.org].

if you're a fish politician

[thegnu (557446)]

you can probably only count to 3. which makes for an alarming 1 in 3.

Bad for cardassians...

[geminidomino (614729)]

Gul Madred: There are five lights.
Jean-Luc Salmon: I only count four. ... ...
*6 hours later*
Gul Madred clicks on a fifth light.
Madred: How many lights do you see?
Salmon: There are FOUR lights!
Madred: *facepalms*

I;m not sure

[techpawn (969834)]

Not sure if the can count but I think my betta fish is learning how to lift the gate that separates it from the other betta in the dual betta tank [animalworldnetwork.com]. A few minutes after I close the gate he's there at the bottom trying to lift it. I know fish are smarter than most give them credit for, thank god there not a reverse scuba suit...

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[esocid (946821)]

Too late [technovelgy.com] my friend, better keep an eye on your betta. Or sleep with one eye open.

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[techpawn (969834)]

Okay, when it comes with a machine gun and lotus notes then I'll worry.

Re:I;m not sure

[Rogue Haggis Landing (1230830)]

The betta I had as a kid could recognize me. When I opened the lid to his little tank he would come to the surface on the right side, where I would drop food. He wouldn't come when my brother (who never fed him) did the same thing. We were both about the same height, same hair and skin coloring, etc., so that's pretty clever, at least for a fish. Hell, my own father still can't tell us apart. I suppose I should have fed him more often.

Anyway, the point is that fish aren't mindless automatons like everyone thinks. They have a (limited) ability to learn (simple) things.

Re:I;m not sure

[matria (157464)]

One summer an orb spinner spider build her web above the porch stairs. I began feeding her when she and the bugs were small; I'd toss them into her web. Towards the end of summer, she was huge, no longer maintained her web, and she would come down from under the eves to the bottom of the matted mess that was left whenever I stepped on the stairs, waiting for me to toss her something, but not for anyone else.

Just like rabbits.

[Stavr0 (35032)]

Rabbits: One, Two, Three, Four, Hrair Fish: One, Two, Three, Four, School

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[dontthink (1106407)]

Wow, first Watership Down reference I've seen on slashdot. Accurate too - right on.

But the real question is. . . .

[smooth wombat (796938)]

are they smarter than a Fifth Grader?

Based on at least one person I've seen on that show [stereogum.com], they very well could be.

humans with very limited mathematical ability ...

[thrillseeker (518224)]

politicians?

Re:humans with very limited mathematical ability .

[AHumbleOpinion (546848)]

humans with very limited mathematical ability ... politicians?

No. Donations, polls, and votes all use mathematics quite heavily. Perhaps you are confused by how they handle "our" money, to get a better evaluation of their capabilities note how they handle "their" money. :-)

Perhaps Best Not to Publish This Research

[hardburn (141468)]

This will only encourage PETA to make loud press releases about how fish are "intelligent, sensitive creatures" and how the Inuit diet is a source of great evil in the world.

Dr. Seuss knew!!!

[jollyreaper (513215)]

One fish, two fish, red fish, blue screen...oh, fuck!

so off the mark

[hesaigo999ca (786966)]

It's sad how they test to see if fish can count, or even assume that they are in fact counting, when they could be looking at the overall size ratio of the school itself and not the fish collective individually. This is one of those studies we pay for with our tax dollars, that I would highly decree to be a waste of money.

If I look over at a group of 2 diff. gangs and by instinct I will go for the bigger gang, then chances are that I will go for the visibly larger gang. Now to test if they were actually cou

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[Skreems (598317)]

Well, they did test whether they'd prefer groups of 12 or 8, which is a larger ratio than 3 vs 4, and found no response in that case. So they did check for the size thing.

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[blueg3 (192743)]

The fact that you didn't read the article is showing. :-)

I'm going to assume from that that you also didn't investigate the source of their funding.

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[by Anonymous Coward]

I think you're misunderstanding the article. They ARE testing instinctive behaviour. Nobody is claiming that these fish are deliberately making any conscious decisions, or that they understand why they're choosing one group over another. The term "counting" might be misleading you, as it does imply intelligent thought, but in this case they simply mean that they can tell the difference between 3 and 4, in certain situations. They probably shouldn't use the word "count", but it's easier to explain to the

Big Deal

[trongey (21550)]

I can count way higher than 4, and nobody's writing research papers about me.
Stupid fish.

We finally have proof!

[Gregour (891193)]

My goldfish is smarter than my president.

Subtle flaw, FEMALE fish can count to four

[SmallFurryCreature (593017)]

They tested the behaviour of FEMALE fish, not male ones. We know that in humans women are not as good at the hard sciences as men are. Offcourse counting to four barely classifies as hard science, except maybe in Utah, but still.

Still the article makes me wonder, how do we count. I am currently looking at the number of open tasks on my taskbar, there are 5, I counted four instantly. I am now trying to convince myself that this is because the fifth "icon" is where in previous KDE versions part of the start menu was so that I overlooked it and not that I have the brains of a fish. A female fish. Some hard liqour maybe inorder, although sadly I then also frequently have a problem counting past the fourth drink.

Fish approved for...

[lpangelrob (714473)]

Well, I suppose this means they're more than eligible to receive their own Holy Hand Grenades then. Science is always causing trouble...

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[apdyck (1010443)]

Only once we learn that they can count backwards from four...that way they know how many mini-torpedoes they have left based on how many they've fired.

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[gardyloo (512791)]

They keep making fencepost errors, though.