Slashdot Log In
Boeing Helping to Develop Algae-Powered Jet
Posted by
ScuttleMonkey
on Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:48 AM
from the powerful-pond-scum dept.
from the powerful-pond-scum dept.
jon_cooper writes "Air New Zealand, Aquaflow Bionomic Corporation and Boeing are working together to develop and test a bio-fuel derived from algae. Aquaflow Bionomic Corporation began operating in May last year after it met a request from the local council to deal with excess algae on sewage ponds. Boeing's Dave Daggett was reported this year as saying algae ponds totaling 34,000 square kilometers could produce enough fuel to reduce the net CO2 footprint for all of aviation to zero."
Related Stories
[+]
Technology: Boeing Working on Fuel Cell Aircraft 163 comments
"Boeing is working with development partners on a fuel cell-based small aircraft. It seems like a logical use of the technology. Now if they can come up with a quiet, personal-sized VTOL craft a la Paul Moller's Skycar (which is anything but quiet), we'll really have something." From the article "A Boeing research director was quoted as saying, "While Boeing does not envision that fuel cells will provide primary power for future commercial passenger airplanes, demonstrations like this help pave the way for potentially using this technology in small manned and unmanned air vehicles."
[+]
Boeing's New 787 Wings — Amazingly Flexible 564 comments
An anonymous reader writes "Boeing is making the wings of its new 787 out of carbon fiber instead of metal. That means the wings are so strong and flexible that they could bend upward and touch above the fuselage — or come close. The company is expected to deliver the first 787 to All Nippon Airlines in May 2008. 'Boeing has completed static testing of a three-quarter wingbox, but engineers are still considering whether to limit testing of the full wing to a 150% load limit held for 3 sec. or to continue bending it to see when it breaks. 'There's a raging debate within the engineering team to see if we should break it or not,' says [787 General Manager Mike] Bair.'" They have come a long way in wing flexibility.
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
And in response... (Score:5, Funny)
The irony wars have just been joined!
Re:And in response... (Score:5, Funny)
What I really want to see is a mushroom-powered Air Force. If you thought those Hellfire missile explosions were pretty before...
Parent
cost... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:cost... (Score:4, Informative)
Actually, they're talking about converting the harvested algae into bio-jetfuel, not straight hydrogen. It's pretty easy to get biodiesel from algae--extract the oil, then some fairly simple chemical reactions yield fuel that will work in any modern diesel engine with no modifications. This is nothing new. What's interesting is this company is working with Boeing and adding or changing a step in the conversion process to derive a fuel from algae suitable for jet engines instead of diesel engines.
Hydrogen isn't all that great as a combustion fuel. Energy density is weak, it's expensive to produce, store and transport and the added temperature and pressure regulating gear adds a lot of dead weight--which is especially bad for an aircraft.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Except that Algae yields vegetable oil, not petroleum. Transesterification of vegetable oil yields something almost entirely not quite unlike diesel fuel. It's similar enough that a diesel engine won't care, but there are certainly differences--it's biodegradable, non-toxic if processed correctly (some methanol is used in its production, it's still possible to have dangerous levels of methanol in a 'bad batch' so you really don't want to drink the stuff). And one of the biggest reasons you'll usually fin
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Other costs (Score:3, Insightful)
We should be working on getting carbon back into the ground and not on pulling more out.
In other news (Score:3, Insightful)
The FAA is making this an initiative as well.. (Score:5, Interesting)
However, check this out:
http://www.faa.gov/news/speeches/news_story.cfm?n
The FAA has been showing interest recently in reducing the environmental impact of the aviation industry.
Personally, I'd love to see bio-fuels take off (no pun intended). Turn Death Valley into a big algae farm (although watch that impact global weather patterns somehow).
Opening Line (Score:5, Funny)
--
Looking for a C/C++ job in Silicon Valley? [slashdot.org]
Good! (Score:5, Interesting)
Where to put it? (Score:5, Insightful)
The same place you'd put a refinery large enough to refine every last drop of oil we use today: NOT IN ONE PLACE, DUMBASSES.
Is it really that hard to imagine that these ponds will be spread out over multiple areas? There are many large cities producing tons of the waste this stuff is supposed to thrive on, so logically the processing plants would be near them. Aside from that, it only makes sense to have your production facilities spread out so that one hurricane or whatever doesn't knock out the entire world's supply of jet fuel.
Along the same line of reasoning as the last reason, it also makes sense to have widely distributed production facilities so that you don't have to ship the final product halfway around the globe to serve, say, Indonesia.
Half of West Virginia (Score:3, Funny)
Area of West Virginia? 62,361 km^2
Half of West Virginia covered in algae? Priceless!
So... they run on pond scum? (Score:3, Funny)
Where are these numbers from... (Score:4, Informative)
Based on a research conducted by the National Renewable Energy Lab, http://www.nrel.gov/docs/legosti/fy98/24190.pdf [nrel.gov], a 1000 square meter out door pond at Roswell, New Mexico was used to grow algae with controlled conditions (Ph value, CO2...). Algae could grow at a peak value of 50 gram/m^2/day and average value of 10 gram/m^2/day. Then some people on the good old internet translated (manipulated) this number as algae can grow at 10-50 gram/m^2/day. Then the number was redefined as biofuel can be produced from the pond at a speed of 10-50 gram/m^2/day. An acre is 4047 m^2. So that's 40470-202350 gram/acre/day and 14,771,550-73,857,750 gram/acre/year. Diesel density is 850g/liter, and one gallon is 3.7854 liter, so one gallon of diesel is 3218g. Then the pond production rate become 4,600- 23,000 gallon/acre/year, then some other people at the Wiki thing estimated 10,000-20,000 gallon/acre/year, and then comes the Boeing number.
I really hope we can fly cleaner, but, man, there is a dead fish smell.
old research (Score:4, Informative)
The problem is a lack of existing stakeholders able to make it happen. We already have corn, nuclear, wind, and solar lobbies getting their piece of the government handouts (and public interest), but there aren't many people sitting on massive algae resources and a large bank account. Biodiesel from palms has become big business, especially in Malaysia, but algae will provide a huge improvement in yields.
Yield of Various Plant Oils (Lipids)
Crop / Oil in Liters per hectare
Castor 1413
Sunflower 952
Safflower 779
Palm 5950
Soy 446
Coconut 2689
Algae 100000 (order of magnitude due to large variance in yield by species)
http://www.oilgae.com/algae/oil/yield/yield.html [oilgae.com]
The nice part about using algae is that marginal land (desert or poor soils) can be used, and high nutrient waste streams are excellent feedstocks, e.g. the American southwest and the Salton Sea.
Another take (Score:3, Insightful)
I dont know how to figure this out, but if one takes a look at all the sewage treatment facilities around the world, what would the total area of them be?
Also something else to take into account, it is talking about NET CO2 being reduced to 0. From what I can tell that meens that if 100% of all aircraft were running on this algae made biofuel, the production of CO2 from aircraft would balance the CO2 intake of the algae used to make the biofuel. It isnt saying that they would no longer make CO2, just it would balance with natural intake by organic processes such as algae growth. Nice goal, probly wont happen for a while though. It would meen aircraft moving completely away from the finite nonrenewable resorces of oil.
It looks like something worthy of trying, does make me wonder if Big Oil is going to try something against this though. People have been fighting to get electric, hydrogen, biodiesel, and other nonoil vehicles on the road for years. Just sounds to me like this war has finaly gotten wings.
Just my opinions
Typical human arrogance (Score:3, Funny)
If we're going to subjugate a species for our conveniences, we should choose a less sentient form of life with easily harvested fat. I suggest we start with NASCAR fans.
Re: (Score:3)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, but consider this... (Score:3, Funny)
Wait, what were we talking about?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But no no, I'm being hugely irrational because I don't associate an unrelated person's private life with the benefits of biofuels.
The thing that bothers me isn't the attack on Gore; I co
Re:Only (Score:4, Funny)
Well, someone must be able to think of something.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Hey, if it saves the planet, then I say screw the Netherlands.
Now, seriously, if this is the strain of algae I'm thinking about, it is very high in oil content. Not all algae are. It is also very sensitive, and other more aggresive forms of algae are prone to force it out. So, like wine making, it has to be done in the right conditions where the wrong airborne yeast getting into the mix will turn your wine into garbage, or worse, Gallo, letting the wrong algae get into the ponds will be bad.
But, why not g
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Plus, according to Wikipedia, Guinea-Bissau [wikipedia.org] is the smallest, sufficiently-sized country.
serious response to funny post (Score:5, Insightful)
They refuel at these airports.
Airports are usually vast areas of grass interrupted by tarmac and a terminal.
Nobody wants to live under the clearways on either end of the runways anyway.
Most large airports are near urban centers that product loads of free nitrogen fertilizer (otherwise known as effluent).
Why not produce the fuel at the source - eliminating a significant amount of transportation and infrastructure?
Parent
Re:serious response to funny post (Score:5, Informative)
There are many instances where the effective clearway is a body of water.
These ponds do not need to be so deep that they would constitute a hazard for the plane sinking into the depths. In fact if they were less than a meter deep and the bottom was firm (concrete) the water would actually provide a relatively safe place for the plane to come to rest (dissipating a great deal of energy).
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Only (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
It's not that hard to come up with that land... (Score:4, Informative)
Regardless, many companies are experimenting with this and it is much more efficient then corn or any other sort of biofuel production. As for the 34,000 square kilometers, you don't need ponds to do it. Many companies are using clear plastic bags to do it. Think zip-lock bags. The algae only needs water, sunlight, and CO2 to reproduce, and fast. This process can take place anywhere, even in non-desirable desert lands that get plenty of sunlight. The land is cheap, not in competition with cities and other industries because quite frankly, it is a desert. I imagine that once this becomes viable (still in the research and refinement stages) Arizona and New Mexico will have a major industry popping up.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You don't want to use valuable fresh water for that. If you pipe in sea water (assuming you can grow the right kind of algae in sea water), I imagine you might have trouble with salinity levels as the water evaporates from the constant air circulation.
-matthew
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Because algae grows well in waste water from human sources (in fact LOVES sewage) and because it needs no soil, it can be grown in areas where it is utterly impractical to grow crops. UNH typically uses the Sonoran Desert in the U.S. Southwest as an example - Something like 1/4 of that area (which is mostly unpopulated) could supply the transportation fuel needs of the entire country (if all vehicles were converted from gasoline to biodiesel, of cour
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So "only 34,000 square kilometers of algae needed to do this" is an entirely unironic, nonsarcastic statement.
A worthwhile sarcastic statement would be something like "gee, only a century of internal combustion engines, and mere years from the brink of irreparable environmental collapse, before we thought to do this"
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Save the Fish (Score:5, Informative)
The fish deaths are not due to oxygen deprivation from the algae; rather, some algae blooms produce toxins that kill off fish. In smaller waters (like ponds and slow-moving rivers) algae exerts downward pressure on fish populations by outcompeting other organisms in the fish's food web.
While low oxygen concentrations are sometimes observed in waters with a high algae content, this is typically due to low aeration and warm water.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6904249
Re:Save the Fish (Score:5, Informative)
In a system where the algae is harvested for biodiesel, this is not a concern, since dead algae doesn't accumulate.
Parent
Re:Save the Fish (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
34,000/361,000,000~=0.01%
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Travel all over the West, sometime, through the mountains, or through the forests. Get away from cities or the coasts, for that matter. You'll see what I mean.
Not to mention that, but there's a lot of wasted space on building rooftops.
Solar, small-scale wind, or algae would all be viable on a large percentage of building rooftops, if people start thinking small-scale and cheap.
There is *no* magic silver bullet. Howeve
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I don't know what you mean by "practical", but keep in mind that less than 10% of US land is developed while an additional 15% is used for farmland and an additional 35% for pasture land.
That means there are roughly 4 million square kilometers of unused land in the US. So 34,000 square kilomenters is less than 1% of the unused land. A meaningful chunk, no doubt, but there is still lots of empty land out there.
Another way to look at this
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The algae strings together the more desirable longer hydrocarbon chains, as well as concentrating them within the algae cells. Longer molecule chains usually mean a higher energy density. While you could just anaerobically digest the waste and produce methane (the shortest hydrocarbon chain), methane has a much lower energy density compared to biodiesel, not to mention that you would be handling a gas instead of a liquid. You also lose that bonus of extracting CO2 from the atmosphere with anaerobic dige
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Moreover, there certainly are people looking to improve