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The Internet Science

Visualizing "Answer People" In Online Discussions 123

Marc Smith writes "'Answer people,' the folks who contribute much of the value in the Internet, are a small minority of all online users. According to a recent paper my co-authors and I have published in the Journal of Social Structure, less than 2% of authors in Usenet newsgroups are likely to be the helpful 'answer person' type — authors who reply to many other people with brief replies. The paper Visualizing the Signatures of Social Roles in Online Discussion Groups contains social network visualizations of the ties created when authors reply to one another. These images highlight the difference between these helpful folks and other types of contributors. The findings may apply to other threaded discussions, maybe even here at Slashdot."
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Visualizing "Answer People" In Online Discussions

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  • And yet ... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by WrongSizeGlass ( 838941 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:04PM (#19700973)

    less than 2% of authors in Usenet newsgroups are likely to be the helpful 'answer person' type
    And the other 98% think they're helpful 'answer people'.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:26PM (#19701107)
      You "answer people" exist for one purpose and one purpose only: to tell me what I want to know when I want to know it.

      Of course I am not an "answer person." I have more important things to do.

      I paid for my access to the Internet, which means I paid for my access to you. Dont expect any gratitude from me.
      • Re:And yet ... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Aladrin ( 926209 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:48PM (#19701231)
        Mod this insightful!

        No, not because it's insightful on purpose, but because it's an accurate representation of how most of that 98% think. For some reason, they honestly believe that they -deserve- an answer just because they post a question.

        I'm talking about the people that post things like 'What, 98 views and nobody answers my damn question!?' and 'Doesn't anyone know the answer?' and 'HEY I NEED HELP HERE AND HURRY UP'.

        I'm an answer person. I actively enjoy helping other people. I'm not a selfless do-gooder, though. I do it because I'm happy when I make others happy. A selfless do-gooder would take all the abuse on forums without losing his top. They'd answer the question, even if the person was ignorant and rude. That's not me, because rude jerks don't give me that feeling of pride and happiness, but instead make me feel used and unappreciated.
        • Re:And yet ... (Score:5, Insightful)

          by digitalsushi ( 137809 ) <slashdot@digitalsushi.com> on Saturday June 30, 2007 @05:41PM (#19701825) Journal
          you can tell an answer person for real when an answer person asks a question, gets no reply, and then answers their own post with the solution a few days later.
        • by Mondak ( 775074 )
          Well said! You sound like a person who has recently read "Atlas Shrugged" or "The Fountainhead" by Ayn Rand

          Lets face it, Mother Teresa liked what she did. She didn't do it for them, she did it for herself.
          • Lets face it, Mother Teresa liked what she did. She didn't do it for them, she did it for herself.

            That's pretty selfish.

        • by Xymor ( 943922 )
          Very well put.
          I used to be like that, before became a programmer and got involved with the open source community. I think they are just used to reality of "Rights, Duties and Money".
          People need to understand that as a community, every help, no matter how small, is valid and contributes to the higher goal. It's much like bittorrent, sharing the pieces of the puzzle everyone holds we can accomplish much.
        • I am the type of person who would answer my own question a few days (months) later at least half of the time. In your opinion once your thread has hit the second page and you know for sure there are people who know the answer how would you gain their attention? Bump up the thread? Message some of the people you think know the answer? Add in any new information you may have found?
          • by Aladrin ( 926209 )
            The last suggestion there has the most merit. Prove that you haven't just sat on your ass and that you really ARE looking for an answer. Also, you may not have provided enough information in the first place, and nobody -could- answer the question. Adding more useful information may also jog someone's memory as well.

            But generally, if it's a fast board and you get ignored, there's nothing you can do. If it's a slow board and you get ignored, nobody can answer the question. I just keep working at the prob
        • by AP31R0N ( 723649 )
          You've not described a 'selfless do-gooder', you've described ad wussy, a doormat, a passive person. Whereas you describe yourself as assertive and helpful. People who take abuse do themselves harm which usually will mean harm to someone else down the line.

          i see it like alignments in D&D. Internalizing - Externalizing on one axis. Strong - Weak on the other. Externalizing/Strong = Agressive, a bully. Internalizing/Strong = Assertive, stands up for itself, is not a bully. Internalizing/Weak = Passi
    • by Colin Smith ( 2679 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @04:01PM (#19701301)
      Which ironically could be why it's so popular.

      1: Most don't initiate a topic. Simply reading the latest cool stories.
      2: Look at the social network diagram of an answer person. Few interconnections. It indicates introverted social behaviour, which is classic computer/science etc geek/nerd. It's not like we're short of those.
      3: Hands up the system administrators and technical support analysts.

      In fact, the way Slashdot is structured with the constant new topics may even attract "answer people" over other bulletin board cultures. It'd be interesting to see an analysis done here. It'd be interesting if different bulletin board systems encouraged different types of people to use them. Hmm, you could even track the types of interactions based on the age of the story and by UID to see if the general culture has changed.

      Interesting social research.

       
      • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

        by ozmanjusri ( 601766 )
        If you want to make a dot point list in a Slashdot posting, you can use the <ul> and <li> tags. It looks cleaner and indents nicely.

        Your list, for example, would look like this:

        <ul>
        <li>Most don't initiate a topic. Simply reading the latest cool stories.</li>
        <li>Look at the social network diagram of an answer person. Few interconnections. It indicates introverted social behaviour, which is classic computer/science etc geek/nerd. It's not like we're short of those.</li
    • I bloviate much too much to be an answer person.

      Plus, I often use the discussions to think about things which I had not previously considered.
    • by Tablizer ( 95088 )
      And the other 98% think they're helpful 'answer people'.

      Dude, My "try rebooting" has been very successful.
           
  • Hey (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    authors who reply to many other people with brief replies
    Me too!
  • is... (Score:5, Funny)

    by cosmocain ( 1060326 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:08PM (#19700999)
    ... RTFM a helpful answer? if so, i'm one of the 2%!
    • Re: (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      > is RTFM a helpful answer?

      RTFM!
    • Re:is... (Score:5, Funny)

      by m0nkyman ( 7101 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:46PM (#19701219) Homepage Journal
      RTFA and find out for yourself.
      • nah. TLDR!
      • RTFA and find out for yourself.

        Actually, I've noticed in the last few years that instead of saying RTFM (the value of which advice, incidentally, can't be overstated), is that people post Wiki links [wikipedia.org] instead. My guess is that it may be more useful for those unaccustomed to reading a terse man page and has the added bonus of being a brush-off that appears polite.

        Similarly, offering linkies to popular websites is becoming increasingly common. There's more and more good websites, of course, but most people lo
        • by J0nne ( 924579 )
          The man pages for pretty much anything are mirrored all over the web, so I don't see why you wouldn't use Google. If the answer is on a man page, Google will find it anyway. The 5KB you spent downloading the answer means nothing any more, nowadays.
          • interestingly, for example, I seem to be more likely to google "man smb.conf" than I am to type it into a console.
    • Well apparently being concise is a quality of answer people so you qualify.

      Sometimes RTFA is the answer. Some folks are SFL.
  • by gEvil (beta) ( 945888 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:09PM (#19701003)
    The findings may apply to other threaded discussions, maybe even here at Slashdot.

    Won't apply to me. I use the "nested" view for comments.
  • hmmm (Score:2, Interesting)

    by jadin ( 65295 )
    I've noticed when browsing for answers for specific problems I'm having, I'll find an answer I could post to some random web forum. Most of those however require registration, and I never bother. If I'm already a member I'll post it, but sometimes it's just not worth jumping through a dozen hoops to post a random answer. Especially considering they might never check that six month old post ever again.

    I'm sure I'm not alone.
    • Especially considering they might never check that six month old post ever again.

      You know what peeves me off. Obscure Windows OS and Application problems that the only results in Google are slew of 6 month old newsgroup posts with no replies. ;)

      And its usually the ones that fit my problem down to a T with the symptoms and error messages. The only consolation is the fact that some poor smuck out there has faced the same problem I am faced with now but with no solution.
      • by FLEB ( 312391 )
        Or, the one that I hate even more: An exact description of the problem, aaaaand... "To see the rest of this discussion, become a subscriber! Only $29.99 per year!" (Yes, I'm looking at you, ExpertsExchange.)

        These things should be downlisted like spam-sites, IMO, but they have enough signal to stay on top of the rankings, just nothing actually helpful.
        • by Bigbutt ( 65939 )
          Yea, my default google search for tech questions generally end with excluding the "expert sex change" site.

          5 thumbs down

          [John]
          • If you scroll ALL the way down, past the blurred out answers and the advertisements, the questions and answers are there in plain text. Still not a very good way to run a site, though.
            • by FLEB ( 312391 )
              Wow... in my blind fury (well, mostly annoyance, really) I never bothered to see that. Thanks for the tip.
    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by fbartho ( 840012 )
      Use the bugmenot firefox extension! That's what I do... I don't know about the long term effects of giving good karma to random usernames on random boards, are, however it lets me feel good about helping out, even if in the end it's anonymous and nobody can ever tie it back to me.
  • by weinrich ( 414267 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:14PM (#19701037)

    only 2% of authors in Usenet newsgroups are likely to be the helpful 'answer person' type -- authors who reply to many other people with brief replies.
    Another typical marker for an 'answer person' posting is the fact that the conversation (usually a random flurry of replies to the original question) usually stops quickly once they chime in, as everyone else recognizes that their answer is correct and complete.
  • by binaryspiral ( 784263 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:14PM (#19701043)
    Answer people enjoy solving problems and helping people. I won't consider myself one, but I do get a sense of accomplishment when I can help someone solve a problem or further a discussion.

    And yet, Yahoo and other online corporations are (imho) exploiting these people by establishing "Answer" areas that reward people for answering questions with useless points. Do they get compensation or a cut of the advertising profits that yahoo is making on them? No. They get honor points.

    Yahoo makes a mint on the viewership of the site and the answer people get a warm feeling... maybe it breaks even. I stopped answering questions after reading the hundredth obvious "I don't want to do my homework, so I'll ask it here" question.

    At least sites like ePinions.com rewards it's reviewers with a pittance of the revenue their reviews generate.
    • by Colin Smith ( 2679 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:18PM (#19701069)

      And yet, Yahoo and other online corporations are (imho) exploiting these people by establishing "Answer" areas that reward people for answering questions with useless points. Do they get compensation or a cut of the advertising profits that yahoo is making on them? No. They get honor points.
      I'd mod you insightful if I had any points.

       
    • by Khaed ( 544779 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:53PM (#19701257)
      And yet, Yahoo and other online corporations are (imho) exploiting these people by establishing "Answer" areas that reward people for answering questions with useless points. Do they get compensation or a cut of the advertising profits that yahoo is making on them? No. They get honor points.

      then don't go to Yahoo! Answers and offer your services. It's not like you can't tell they're making money. I personally don't think Yahoo deserves my time, and they don't deserve to make money off my knowledge, so I don't go there and answer questions. But some people apparently don't care -- hey, their choice.
      • by homer_s ( 799572 )
        The guy was having so much fun playing the victim and blaming the EVIL SLIMY CORPORATIONS and you had to spoil all that with your logic.
        • Yahoo is making money of people who are acting altuistically. It's like charging for band-aids when a bomb has gone off outside your store.
    • by ribuck ( 943217 )
      If you pay the "Answer people", then you generally also need to charge the "Question people".

      That's the model we use at paid Q&A site http://uclue.com/ [uclue.com]

      The downside is: we're not in a position to take on more "Answer people" until we get a higher volume of paid questions.
    • I consider myself an answer guy and also noticed the Yahoo! Answers!! thing. Since I was an answer guy enjoying answering stuff (I think because I then usually learn a lot in the process), I signed up there and started answering. Then I saw Yahoo only used us basically as human bots to run their service and drive revenues from ad profits and building an active service on us without giving us anything back but some abstract idea of "points" that I had absolutely no economic use for whatsoever. Then I stopped
      • About those stupid answers - they just might be on purpose for the person who obviously is not making an honest effort to find something out on their own.

        Frequently question/answer boards and forums light up with questions around finals/semester project/term paper times. It gets really old and it's unfair to those who actually do their own research instead of leeching off the good will of others to the detriment of their classmates.

        That is frequently why a lot of people will give bogus answers - to ca
    • by catbutt ( 469582 )
      How is that "exploting"? Well, any more than slashdot is "exploiting" you and me, since we are working to provide content and they are making money off us. And google is exploiting people who put up web pages. And, well...you could apply it to just about anything on the web where people participate without making money, while the site shows ads.

      They are providing a simple service, and charging for it (it does cost them money to program and host it, you know). They assume those using it, whether asking
    • I won't consider myself one...

      Interestingly, I find that's a trait of most "answer people. I don't know whether that's a cause or effect, though.

    • Yahoo makes a mint on the viewership of the site and the answer people get a warm feeling... maybe it breaks even.
      Maybe? By definition, both sides come out ahead, or they wouldn't engage in the behavior. This is true of all non-coerced exchanges.
    • by geschild ( 43455 )
      And I'd mod both you, and the GP, (-1, Cynical) if I could.

      Fortunately, I can't. I can tell you both that for the "answer people", the idea of having made the world a little better, can be enouhg of a reward in itself. You could, of course, call it a waste of time or other resources, but there are far sillier hobbies than this. Besides, you're already participating in the fray just by replying and modding here at /.

      Joke's on you, both. :)
    • by dbcad7 ( 771464 )
      I guess it depends on the question, whether or not someone has "done their homework". If a google search finds you 20 results on a problem, and that person hasn't read any of them, then they are either lazy or don't know how to find answers. If it's an obscure problem, then answering not only helps that person, but others who run into it later.
  • Karmic Value (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Original Replica ( 908688 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:18PM (#19701063) Journal
    "More generally, an answer person's apparent altruism provides an important explanatory challenge for models of collective action raising the possibility that people may be contributing to public goods for social goods like status "

    Well yes people like to be favorably for contributing positively. Is greater status wrong in the light of greater contribution? http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/06/03/194722 7 [slashdot.org]
    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by marcello_dl ( 667940 )
      Indeed but I usually help people out because i feel part of some communities. When I have problems I see somebody took the time to do howtos, so when I can help I do it myself.

      Who cares about the status. (did I mention my ***EXCELLENT*** karma on slashdot?)
    • Well yes people like to be favorably for contributing positively.

      There's an added benefit.

      http://lowery.tamu.edu/Teaming/Morgan1/sld023.htm [tamu.edu]

      The bottom 90% "teach others" is a fabulous aid to learning yourself. If you're interested in a subject, someone asks a question and you answer it after a bit of research, you're going to understand and remember the stuff well.

      • That's why I started, and I keep doing it for two reasons: you keep learning, and you maintain a reputation as the one who knows. The latter is not for ego-stroking purposes, it's for career maintenance purposes.
      • What, a neat little pyramid graphic with no apparent source and no backing data is a reliable source? Hey, I can use MS Paint too! Does that make me an expert on learning?
  • Paying Them (Score:2, Interesting)

    by resistant ( 221968 )
    I'd be willing to bet that an effective universal micropayment system coupled with a decent reputation network would bring quite a few more of these people out of the (lurker) woodwork, especially the ones who otherwise would be more moved to do other things that actually pay the bills. Forums, Usenet groups, Wikis, etc., not only offer no payment, their feedback mechanisms are poor to non-existent. Even the best of the "super-contributors" can become burned out or discouraged. Even minimal payment would
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by anubi ( 640541 )
      You have an interesting take on it.

      Its been my observation that "trying to be useful", regardless of its economic rewards, seems to be inbred in some of us. Maybe its some sort of genetic thing. I cite the entire concept of open-source as my evidence. Some of the best minds in the industry literally give themselves to the public - a "Mother Teresa" type thing, meant in the best of hopes of sharing in the hopes of providing public display of a concept that should work. The Bible is full of it.

      Payments

      • you have just described inforocket.com Archive.org mirror [archive.org]. (something from the 2000-2001 timeframe. The defunct site now redirects to an online psychic network. Get paid to answer burning questions... with a referral network! and your first $5 in questions is free! Dot-com at its best. Guess what happened? Lots of people signing up, blowing through $5 worth of questions, and done. Lots of people signing up, answering lots of those people's $5 worth of questions, then cashing out. Once real cash is i
        • by anubi ( 640541 )

          "Once real cash is involved, it's all about gaming the system."

          You nailed it well. Promises of pay attracts those who strive to get paid.

          I saw this well in some of my previous places of employment.

          I was quite picky over who I wanted to work for. My selection was primarily based on what they did, and did I want to do this... in other words... "Is this gonna be fun?".

          I know myself all too well. If its something I have no desire to do, and I am doing it just to get paid, my own personal economics wi

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Jugalator ( 259273 )
      Google did this with Google Answers, but it's retired. :-( I liked that idea far more than Yahoo! Answers (Google's quality obviously became waay higher) and wonder if there's a well used replacement?
    • I'd be willing to bet that an effective universal micropayment system coupled with a decent reputation network would bring quite a few more of these people out of the (lurker) woodwork

      The motivation for helping is not pay. It's not like work.

      The motivation is helping people, and having other people understand you are helpful.

      To draw in helper people, you need to understand how to make it more visible that people are helpful. When helper people see other helper people being recognized socailly, that makes
  • by antifoidulus ( 807088 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:21PM (#19701083) Homepage Journal
    is to imagine a guy in his late 20s sitting in his parents basement sucking down Mountain Dew and inhaling cheetos.....

    Oh wait, thats not what you meant by "visualizing" them, is it?
  • by pr0nbot ( 313417 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:24PM (#19701097)

    The findings may apply to other threaded discussions, maybe even here at Slashdot.


    They don't.
  • Time & place (Score:2, Informative)

    by Joebert ( 946227 )
    There's a few places where I'm an "answer guy", there's a few places where I'm not.

    It really has nothing to do with my personality, it has alot more to do with how the conversation area is setup.
    • That is true, that is why the article describes people as playing the "social role" of answer person, not that they *have* a "personality type" of answer person. Also, if you look at the last plot, you can see that people are measured as playing roles a proportion of the time. Many folks in the kites group in particular are primarily playing a role of discussion person, but at times play an answer person role. So it makes sense that people will, vary from place to place and time to time.
    • Of course it has nothing to do with your personality. They are not trying to guess/predict personalities, but roles. Obviously, people have different social roles in different settings. The role of father (to take their first example in the introduction) is not the same as that same person's role as husband/lover/son/employee/whatever. And when he has the father role with a kid he is playing with, it doesn't say anything about his personality. He could be funny or boring, calm or irritable, selfish or not,
  • Long answer people (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Craig Ringer ( 302899 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:29PM (#19701137) Homepage Journal
    One doesn't have to write lots of brief replies to be useful.

    Some of the most important and helpful - if less frequent - responses are ones that are longer explanations of complex problems or concepts. Disregarding these from consideration is ... interesting.
  • I have no comment.
  • by throatmonster ( 147275 ) on Saturday June 30, 2007 @03:45PM (#19701211)
    Message boards, email discussion lists, etc. are used by an awful lot of companies as a cheap substitute for providing real support for their products. Go to some company's Support web page: you have 3-4 basic options:

    1. Buy a $upport contract or pay-per-incidence
    2. Free email support! It only takes 3-5 business days to get an unhelpful reply.
    3. Visit our support forums. There are plenty of suckers out there who have already bought our product and figured it out, no thanks to us. Get your answer from them because, hey, they supply the knowledge for free and it only costs us a few $ to maintain the support forum!

    Of course if you really do have some sticky problem, or a valid complaint, well, the support forums are not an officially recognized means of communication to the company. Having said that, we'll still delete posts/threads and bar any whiners that make us look bad. So, back to #1 if you really do need technical support.

    I used to be an "answer" guy on a couple of mail lists. Not anymore. Why? because I've moved beyond the products I used to know a lot about. Now I ask the questions for new products I'm learning. That, and the fact that I've realized how much I've "given away" and not gotten anything back from. If I'm going to waste my time, it might as well be on slashdot.
    • "Now I ask the questions for new products I'm learning. That, and the fact that I've realized how much I've "given away" and not gotten anything back from."

      So no one's ever answered any of your questions then?
      • Yes, I still get answers, even if I'm a selfish, flaming prick! The answer people have their own motivation regardless of my contribution - the point of the article, no? If that basic social psychology collapses, I'm left out in the cold. In the meantime...

        Karma is tangible within the confines of slashdot, but I see very little evidence that it exists in the real world.
    • Most implementations of support forums are immature.

      Some of the ideas I have seen for improving forum based support are basic... like paying your level 1 techs to hang out in the forums and elevate complex issues to L2 while resolving basic issues via the forum.

      Other ideas are more complex and some require more active user involvement. One of the most intriguing ideas I have seen is the extension of in-program help files through integrating support forum threads. There is a lot of overhead involved in cla
    • 1. Buy a $upport contract or pay-per-incidence
      2. Free email support! It only takes 3-5 business days to get an unhelpful reply.
      3. Visit our support forums. There are plenty of suckers out there who have already bought our product and figured it out, no thanks to us. Get your answer from them because, hey, they supply the knowledge for free and it only costs us a few $ to maintain the support forum!
      4. IRC live support.

      Helllllooooooooo Ubuntuuuuuuuuuu.
  • Depends on topic (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Tablizer ( 95088 )
    Wouldn't this depend on the topic? A topic like "MS-Access" would be where people ask and answer technical questions; but not politics forums, which are by their nature mostly philosphical debates. Thus, if you measure the political forum for quantity of questions like, "when was Lincoln born?", you will indeed find very little and I would expect it to be that way. They might be counting the wrong thing.
  • Frustration (Score:2, Insightful)

    by hack slash ( 1064002 )
    One of the problems of being an 'answer person' (I like trying to help people get the right & correct information, and yes I've often posted a question only to answer it myself later that week) is when things get technical to a point where the answer is over the head of the knowledge seeker, they'll often expect you to 'babysit' them through some technical problems you worked out yourself with a little dilligence.
    If they're not prepared to put some time into using the initial information you've given t
  • I modded at a 10,000 person forum. It's true a small group most often answers questions/posts. However this group can be genuinely informative/insightful or playing out roles that often flirt with being abusive. If the bullies, know-it-alls etc. aren't kept in check now and then, they gather little cliques that soon put pressures on groups and administration. A weak administration and a forum increasingly beset with stife and compulsive provacateurs soon sees its best relpiers dwindle down. The people who w
    • I have seen good forums flip, and the group of insightful posters get displaced by smaller more malignant group.

      That's a common scenario in a lot of social situations. Forums, guilds, gaming clans, businesses, social clubs, etc.

      The factor seems to be how many EGR (Extra Grace Required) there are compared to normal supportive members. EGR folks are either abusive towards others, disrespectful, or require extra attention. Hence the term "EGR" which means that you have to have extra grace in order to d
      • I love the "EGR" designation. Of course there are some people where extra grace is called for and when the site can provide that (within reason) it speaks well for the site. Of course some members become psychic vampires and just drain resources to no good end. I usually watch how people respond to the extra graces. If they just get more spoiled (after a week or two of trying to do a softshoe to look contrite) then that's a bad sign. Thanks
  • What is the usenet thing? It sounds a bit like Google Groups. Where is their website?

    No, I am not serious (sigh).
  • Most of the people on Slashdot are emotional juveniles who think that a clever put-down instead of a thoughtful answer is applauded, when in fact the applause is only coming from their peers - more emotional juveniles. Emotionally mature people shun such nonsense, preferring honest, thoughtful, intelligent answers.

    90% of the replies to this post will no doubt prove my point.
  • I'm glad I could be of help.
  • ...discuss.

    Serious point though - teach a man to fish and all that.

    I find I only answer the toughies (when I can) and leave picking off 50 easy answers to other people - so I guess that means I enjoy the challenge of answering tough questions.

    Do you think answer people are the ones who ask the sensible questions when they do get stuck? If you filter out all the questions you can answer using Google in five minutes, those that remain are a different category; generated, I so stipulate, by a different class o

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