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The Impossibility of Colonizing the Galaxy

Posted by kdawson on Sun Jun 17, 2007 01:13 PM
from the let's-settle-the-gobi-desert-first dept.
OriginalArlen writes "The science fiction writer Charlie Stross has written an excellent and comprehensive explanation of why, thousands of SF books, movies, and games notwithstanding, human colonization of other star systems is impossible. Although interstellar colonization seems common-sensical to many, Charlie makes a clear-headed and unarguable case, so far as I can see, that it ain't gonna happen without a 'magic wand' or two. Nevertheless it would be interesting to see reasoned responses from the community who believe that colonization is not merely possible, but inevitable — and even, as Hawking has said, vital for the survival of the species. So, who's right — Hawking or Stross?"
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  • Both right? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by king-manic (409855) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:16PM (#19542453)
    Well it may be physically impossible but also essential for our survival. Thus int he end we're really screwed.
    • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Original Replica (908688) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:31PM (#19542567) Journal
      His arguement is sound if you want to talk about space colonies in the next 50 to 100 years, but of course the advanced tech we will have in 100-150 years will look like magic from our prospective. Almost every technology we have today would get you burned for witchcraft in 1857. Automated factories, mobile phones, television, airplanes, nukes ... all the magic from a pre-industrial revolution viewpoint. Add to that the increaseing pace of progress (singularity or not) and I fully expect there will be some "magic wands" before the end of the century. And as of the times when he brings up economic reasons: What does "cost effective" matter if humanity starts to agree vicerally with Hawkins, that colonization is necessary for the susvival of the species?
      • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Firethorn (177587) on Sunday June 17 2007, @02:13PM (#19542951) Homepage Journal
        but of course the advanced tech we will have in 100-150 years will look like magic from our prospective.

        Are you sure about that? We're pretty blase about technology today compared to the eager visions of an earlier age.

        Then there's the fact that finding new tricks is getting harder and harder.

        Look at 1907 - The automobile, while not a standard item, was at least known. Trains were in extensive use, as were power tools. Automatic looms, various mechanical processes.

        If you took an educated man from 1907 and brought him to 2007, he'd be able to understand just about everything we have except for our computational devices. They even understood a bit about nuclear energy.

        What we've done is expanded our awareness and moved these items from the realm of theory to practicality.

        The problem is, while we have many ideas; they get shot down left and right. I don't see a new source of energy orders of magnitude above previous ones, like what nuclear power provided. Sure, antimatter would work, but it's like non-nuclear hydrogen - it's only a storage method, not a generation method.

        We're still advancing, but nowaday's it's hard, very hard.

        Still, even with this, I remain optimistic - after all, we have thousands of years to reach the stars, if not millions.
        • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by JimDaGeek (983925) on Sunday June 17 2007, @02:59PM (#19543375)
          100 years is nothing on a cosmic scale. Even 1,000 years is a blink of the eye. If you brought a man from 1,000 years ago to present day, he would indeed be blown away. How about a man from 5,000 years? Or 10,000?

          I don't like articles like TFA. The writer is looking at the world through a narrow straw. Where will we be technologically in 5,000 - 10,000 years?

          If you go back in history far enough, man couldn't travel around the world because the Earth was flat. We now know that is not true. I am willing to bet that in 1,000 years our science of today will look as basic as the state of science from 1,000 years ago. I think man will be able to go faster than the speed of light one day. It is just that our current science doesn't understand how.
        • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by cgenman (325138) on Sunday June 17 2007, @03:29PM (#19543617) Homepage
          If you took an educated man from 1907 and brought him to 2007, he'd be able to understand just about everything we have except for our computational devices. They even understood a bit about nuclear energy.

          Which is to say that what we have today is by and large based off learning from 100 years ago. Except for Liquid Crystal displays. And programming. Data mining. Most of the advanced materials science we take for granted. The amazing science that goes into modern bad food. Instantaneous worldwide communication VIA satellite networks. Cloning. MagLev regulation. Angioplasty.

          To say that we haven't made huge strides in the past 100 years is ridiculous. 100 years ago, a trip from New York to Japan would take months and be considerd a culmination of a life's work. Today it can be undertaken for a month's salary and a half-day in a plane.

          The problem is, while we have many ideas; they get shot down left and right. I don't see a new source of energy orders of magnitude above previous ones, like what nuclear power provided.

          Fusion? Something involving quantum or String, once that mess gets sorted out? Fission has a rough energy conversion of about one thousandth the available energy. Fusion has a current rough energy conversion of about 3 thousandths. That leaves 99.9% of the available energy on the table, if we can figure out how to unlock it.

          The edge of physics is still raw, and still amazing. Unfortunately, it is a bit difficult to describe to the average person these days... I've visited the laboratory of a Professor friend of mine, and never cease to be amazed by how difficult it is to describe even low-energy waveform interactions without delving into either highly forced metaphors or obscure mathematical modeling.

          We're still advancing, but nowaday's it's hard, very hard.

          It has always been hard. We've been working on Quantum computing for something like 20 years now, but we were working on regular digital computing for longer than that before it was useful... and we understood electricity pretty well by then.

          Cars took a while, then planes took a while, now we're seeing a nanoscent space travel industry opening up.

          If you were in a small village in Greece where you had to walk everywhere by foot, the next village over would be a long way away. The village four villages over would be a tremendous distance. A whole country over would be a gigantic distance, and going to France, for example, would be way out of your league. Traveling to eastern Asia, the Americas, or Australia would look like a pipe dream.

          Well, we've got a long time to get there. And we've got a lot of little steps on the road to galactic civilization, including permanent space stations, profitable manufacturing, colonization of nearby planets, colonization of planets further our in the solar system, etc. 100 years to galactic expansion is ridiculous... after 100 years, we'd be lucky if we've got a buzzing little colony on the moon, let alone Mars or other solar systems.

          --
        • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by Deadplant (212273) <deadplant_ca@@@hotmail...com> on Sunday June 17 2007, @03:37PM (#19543675)
          I'm not sure i agree with you about the technological wonders of 2007.

          Look at 1907 - The automobile, while not a standard item, was at least known. Trains were in extensive use, as were power tools. Automatic looms, various mechanical processes.
          So in 100 years we advanced from basic forms of mechanical locomotion with speeds of maybe 40kph (i'm totally guessing) and ranges in the hundreds of kilometers to vessels with interplanetary range and speeds in excess of 60,000kph (Voyageur 1).
          The Aussies recently tested their new scramjet engine in our atmosphere at mach 10.
          Also, 180kph automobiles with 400+km ranges are available to teenagers.

          If you took an educated man from 1907 and brought him to 2007, he'd be able to understand just about everything we have except for our computational devices. They even understood a bit about nuclear energy.
          They (a few people) understood a bit about nuclear energy. Now we have the power the literally obliterate the entire habitable surface area of the planet. We have ships the size of small towns that can run for 25 years without refueling while putting out more electricity every day than all of civilization had done up until 1907.

          Then there is the whole computerization thing... that is kinda a hard one to dismiss.
          The advances in Information Technology are probably THE most significant advance during that century.

          Then there is the revolution in biotech.
          This one is arguably more significant than computerization.
          We have gone from categorizing life forms by their colours and shapes to a basic understanding of DNA and proteins and for the first time beginning to understand what life IS and to control/create it.
          We now have a basic understanding of the mechanics of biological systems. When this progresses to 'a mastery' of the mechanics of biological systems we will have what could easily be described as god-like powers to design and create life.

          What else.... um, how about all the cyborgs walking around these days?
          Sure, an open-minded person in 1907 could conceive of an artificial heart or lung but we've got 'em and we can fit you with one if your heart stops working. (sometimes)
          Of course we can also make your boobs bigger or your penis harder... You can even have someone else carry your baby to term if there is a problem with your uterus.

          What else... um, the majority of people in the western world can sit down at their desk on whim and look down on any part of the planet from space.

          Actually physically leaving the planet is a vacation option for the rich. (this one would have to blow the mind of a 1907'er)

          I think we're blase not because our advances are meager but because our advances have been so frequent and mind-blowing that we've come to expect new tech that is twice as good as the old tech every few years.
        • Man from 1907 (Score:5, Insightful)

          by tomhudson (43916) <hudson&videotron,ca> on Sunday June 17 2007, @05:22PM (#19544617) Journal

          "If you took an educated man from 1907 and brought him to 2007, he'd be able to understand just about everything we have except for our computational devices. They even understood a bit about nuclear energy. "

          He'd freak out. Too much social change along with technological change.

          Flat-screen TVs. Gay, lesbian and transsexual rights. Cell phones (with mp3 and video), even for kids. A speed limit of over 30 mph!!! Airplanes that can fly faster than the speed of sound, faster than a speeding bullet. Permanent press fabrics. Microwave cooking. Fast food. Tofu. Sushi. Light beer.

          Genetic screening. Debit cards. Credit cards. Routine heart transplants. Smoking banned in most places. Abortion on demand. "God is dead." Televangelists. No-fault divorce. Divorce on demand. Mickey Rooney and Liz Taylor (8 marriages each). Britney Spears and pop-tarts in general.

          Photocopiers. Samizdat. Color printers. Glossy advertising printed so cheaply that it is literally thrown out. Remote controls of all sorts. VCR. DVD. USB fobs with the space for 1000 copies of The Bible. The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, David Bowie.

          Playboy centerfolds. Hustler. Downloadable porn. AIDS. China being the biggest exporter of consumer goods. "Average" houses worth 250,000 to 1 million. Tanning booths.

          No spitting on the sidewalk. Poop and scoop. Deodorants. Ballpoint pens. Nylons. Artificial fabrics of all types. Polyester (okay - NOBODY understands polyester). Rap music. Parking restrictions. Jaywalking being illegal. State lotteries.

          T Shirts. Jeans, capri pants and slacks for women. "Casual business attire." Disposable watches, calculators. The near-death of pencils and erasors. Surgery as fashion statement. Michael Jackson. Boy George. Madonna.

          "You can't hit your wife." "You can't hit your kid." "You can't beat your animals." "You can't threaten someone." You CAN burn the flag. You CAN call the President an idiot to an audience - and you'll even get laughs.

          Black and latino movie stars being the big box office draws, and a black woman - Oprah - being the #1 entertainer. "The Joy of Sex" This guy [goatsc.cz]. Try explaining him to anyone in 2007 ...

          He'd think either the world went crazy, or he did.

          • Re:Man from 1907 (Score:5, Insightful)

            by lawpoop (604919) on Sunday June 17 2007, @09:58PM (#19546335) Homepage Journal
            I think he would freak out, simply because it's too much change in a short time. But I don't know if it would be too much different than an average culture shock of some villager walking into the big capital city 1,000 years ago. But a lot of what you list, from new technologies to various cultures practices, have been found all throughout history. Here's just a few:

            Gay, lesbian and transsexual rights.

            Various cultures have had gay rights, or even elevated positions for gays or transgendered persons. Examples: Ancient Greeks, Sacred Hermaphrodites and transgendereds in Hindusism, Berdache shamans in Apache culture.

            Smoking banned in most places.

            Smoking was considered unhealhy, devilish, and lower-class stuff when tabacco first found it's way into Europe. It was also considered a medicine and health promoter in certain circles.

            and Abortion on demand

            Abortion and infanticide has long been practices in tribal societies and non-Monotheistic, Godess-worshipping cultures.

            "God is dead."

            Hereticism and atheism is nothing new. Greeks.

            No-fault divorce. Divorce on demand

            Practiced in various tribes and in Muslim countries, and places where men and women had more equal rights.

            Photocopiers. Samizdat. Color printers.

            Rapid printing presses.

            Glossy advertising printed so cheaply that it is literally thrown out.

            Colorful decorations that were thrown out and flowers that wilted for days-long religious ceremonies are old practices.

            The Rolling Stones, The Beatles, David Bowie.

            Music is nothing new. Other people's music is always weird.

            Playboy centerfolds. Hustler. Downloadable porn.

            Porn? As old as the cavemen. How about being suprised by the lack of whorehouses and streetwalkers?

            AIDS.

            In the olden says, you would find people with open sores dying in the streets. Obivious, disgusting disease was everywhere. AIDS is a relative benign fatal affliction. One of the diseases from the 1800s, I forget which one, would cause a seemingly healthy man to collapse in the street, dead a few hours later.

            "Average" houses worth 250,000 to 1 million.

            Mansions and palaces are nothing new. He would be surprised by our amount of wealth.

            No spitting on the sidewalk.

            A function of wealth and our sewer/plumbing system. Plumbing and sewers go back to the oldest cities.

            Artificial fabrics of all types.

            On the surface, not distinguishable from an unfamiliar natural fabric.

            Rap music.

            White people have been freak out by blacks with drums (i.e. African culture) for a long time.

            State lotteries.

            Gambling and games of chance, even state-sponsored - Very old.

            T Shirts. Jeans, capri pants and slacks for women.

            Other people always dress weird. Indians in the jungle are running around naked! Women have their breasts exposed!

            "You can't hit your wife." "You can't hit your kid." "You can't beat your animals."

            This is pretty new. But you find a lot of non-violent, pacifist religions all throught history and the world. Case in point - Judaism (don't abuse your domestic animals, slaughter them humanely), Early Christianity, Buddhism and Jainism.

            "You can't threaten someone."

            BIG offense in oral cultures. Likely a capital crime.

            You CAN burn the flag.

            Political protest is nothing new. Greek rulers worried about it all the time.

            You CAN call the President an idiot to an audience - and you'll even get laughs.

            Who doesn't make fun of their boss or political leader? The only place you couldn't do this was in facist, tightly controlled Kingdoms. Ever heard of the court Jester? It was more a problem for upper-class ind

        • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Insightful)

          by mattcasters (67972) on Sunday June 17 2007, @02:20PM (#19542981) Homepage
          I wonder if that's really true. History has many examples of scientific facts being disproven.

          http://www.answers.com/topic/failed-predictions [answers.com]

          The thing is: scientific development will continue. Just like you wouldn't be able to tell in the year 1900 I would be writing this post on a laptop with built-in multimedia capabilites, wireless communitaction and massive computing power, you can't predict what kind of funny effects you can create with space and time when given virtually unlimted amounts of energy. (from our 2007 perspective)
          • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Insightful)

            by packeteer (566398) <packeteer@subdimens i o n.com> on Sunday June 17 2007, @03:11PM (#19543479)
            Who says we have to send humans? Most likely we will send automated robots, nanobots would be even better. Sending maybe a dozen nanobots for redundancy would work just fine. When they arrive at a new system the use the carbon there to reproduce. They can terreform the planet.

            A benefit to sending nano bots is that will very little energy we can send them close to the speed of light. Something that has a mass of maybe a few hundred atoms won't require huge resources to propel.
          • It's not that simple (Score:5, Interesting)

            by Moraelin (679338) on Sunday June 17 2007, @06:14PM (#19544941) Journal

            Yeah, but wasn't it pretty well accepted belief back then that you could never break the sound barrier?

            Was it? I keep hearing such dismissive wisecracks, but I can't actually find any _scientist_ who said that, nor any actual law of physics from back then that said so. To the best of my knowledge, they didn't actually have any such law at any point.

            There have been laymen jumping to such conclusions, and there have been _practical_ problems in getting there. E.g., you wouldn't accelerate a zeppelin (and we still don't) to such speeds because of the drag, and even by the end of WW2 we needed to redesign wings and engines for that. Yes. But that's just saying "it's very hard" or "it's not economical", not "it's impossible."

            What we have here and now is that according to science as we know it, it's outright impossible to get above the speed of light, and there's a _lot_ of experimental confirmation for those principles of relativity. But we'll get to that in a jiffy.

            As far as "sound scientific principles"....remember Newtons laws of motion? They were well accepted as "sound scientific principles" back then, and they held their ground for a couple of centuries. Then we started figuring out that they aren't exactly accurate in some scenarios. Who's to say that in the next century or two we won't start figuring out scenarios in which our current scientific understanding isn't exactly applicable.

            Well, the thing is, Newton's laws of motion still apply within the domain they were created for. Relativity didn't come and say, "OMG, Newtonian physics don't apply any more, starting tomorrow apples fall upwards." Relativity just refines it towards one extreme (and quantum mechanics towards the other), but the pre-existing data pretty much still gives the same results with either.

            If you calculate in how many seconds will an apple fall from 2m height, you'll get the same results with both, up to a ludicrious number of decimals.

            As TFA noted, even at 10% of the speed of light, the relativistic corrections are noticeable, but you can still get in the rough ballpark with Newtonian mechanics. At 1% of the speed of light you could pretty much calculate it with newtonian mechanics, and it will only be off in the decimals. At 0.1% you're as good as Newtonian all the way, and that's already a hideously larger domain than what Newton ever measured.

            What I'm getting at is that whatever new theory we'll discover, it will have to fit the measured results of relativity, for pretty much the whole domain we already measured. And that covers a _lot_ of the spectrum. Even if the new theory said you start to get a discount from 99% of the speed of light upwards, getting to 99% of the speed of light would still pretty much go by the existing mechanics, or close enough that the difference is well in the decimals.

            Whatever new thing we discover in even more extreme cases, you first have to clear the already verified relativistic domain, before your situation is extreme enough for the future-tech refinement of it. And that's a heck of a gigantic, humongous and monumental amount of energy to get there.

            Furthermore, let me throw some more cold water on your enthusiasm by saying: unfortunately a lot of the things we discovered lately was a bit more restrictive than before. E.g., newtonian mechanics said that getting to any speed is possible, then Einstein came along and said, basically, "no, you can't." E.g., in the really old days they thought it's possible to go to the moon without a spacesuit or capsule, because noone figured out that the atmosphere thins out to nothing. (See the ancient chinese guy, the name escapes me, who thought he could just go there by strapping rockets to his chair.) Now we know that there's one more problem in the way. E.g., even 50 years ago, noone thought it would be fundamentally harder to get a human to Mars than to get to the moon. Just build a bigger rocket and there you go. Now we kno

              • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Informative)

                by The One and Only (691315) <phil@philwelch.net> on Sunday June 17 2007, @04:21PM (#19544127) Homepage

                Moreover, Einstein claimed the speed of light is a constant, and as IBM's experiments earlier this year have proven, the speed of light is actually a variable.

                sigh No, they did not prove that c is a variable. c is still a constant as far as we can tell--the fact that light doesn't always travel at c in specific circumstances is useful information that in no way disproves Einstein's theories. Like a Star Trek writer, you're substituting enthusiasm for knowledge. Enthusiasm does not change reality.

                By scientific consensus, we believed the Earth was flat, until we were told it wasn't. We attacked the naysayers and tried to have them killed...

                The ones behing killing people were upholding a religious consensus--even the ancient Greeks knew the world was round.

                As long as there are people saying that we can't do something, there will always be people telling them to shut the hell up, who will defy the odds and fly like an eagle or reach out into the stars. Don't let typical human apathy take hold of that which is grand.

                And the people who do these things are the hard-headed types who accept reality and deal with it honestly. Sheer enthusiasm makes you that guy jumping off your roof with a 5-winged human-powered flying machine.

              • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Insightful)

                by lhbtubajon (469284) on Sunday June 17 2007, @09:44PM (#19546231)

                My personal opinion is we need to concentrate on having LESS people in the Universe rather than spreading out.
                This goes against every biological imperative ever experienced by any life form on earth. And for good reason. The way species improve themselves is to expand until they fill their available space to the limit, and beyond, of sustainability. Once that is reached, a die-off culls the weak and strengthens the remaining gene pool for further adaptation and expansion. This is species survival, and humans are just as good at it as any other life form. Once we fill this planet to the breaking point (which we will), we'll either die off, improving the "herd", or we'll send parts of us away to seed nearby star systems. Death, life, freedom, poverty, and exploration are all the reasons we need, just like our forefathers who struck out across oceans to find new land for colonization. I'm afraid this notion of "fewer humans on earth" is fundamentally nonsense. Biology demands that we expand and multiply, or die trying.
                  • Science is descriptive, not normative. However convenient it may be to picture whatever biological facts as an "imperative," you still can't derive an ought from an is.

                    A self-replicating assembly like DNA is an end-in-itself. Its 'ought' is inseparable form its 'is', in that it exists in order to exist.

                    It grows a human in order to accomplish this end, and that makes things more complicated, but from the point of view of the DNA, the imperative is inherent in its structure.

                    Meanwhile the human can also strongly marry 'is' to 'ought' by realizing that the choice of life versus non-life is not a choice at all, because non-life isn't. As long as life on a human level is practicable, it is also imperative, because non-life is not a thing that can be compared to it.

    • by wkitchen (581276) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:46PM (#19542707)

      Well it may be physically impossible but also essential for our survival. Thus int he end we're really screwed.
      Getting screwed in the end? What a bummer.
    • Thus int he end we're really screwed.

      I don't see any way that we aren't screwed anyway. Unless everything we think we know about
      cosmology and physics is wrong, the Universe is going to eventually experience one of two things: Heat Death [wikipedia.org] or collapsing into a Singularity [wikipedia.org]. Neither of those
      scenarios seems to leave much hope for the continued existence of human life.

      Assuming the cosmological theories are sound; the only way to even theorize about human life continuing perpetually requires going back to "magic wands" like dimension-hopping or something.

      Bottom line, IMO, is that human life has a hard-coded expiration date, and in the end we're all dead and the universe is just a cold, dead, empty wasteland.
      • Re:Both right? (Score:5, Interesting)

        by dsanfte (443781) on Sunday June 17 2007, @02:56PM (#19543349) Journal
        Quite frankly I agree, but I want to see a human around at that very last moment, before that singularity crunches or the last hydrogen fuel source is exhausted, fighting it right up to the bitter end. I want it never to be said that we didn't fight for life and living, right up until the end.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:16PM (#19542455)
    You are comparing some sci fi writer with Hawking? C'mon.

  • Assertions (Score:5, Informative)

    by Enselic (933809) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:19PM (#19542467) Homepage
    "So, who's right -- Hawking or Stross?"

    They are not saying opposite things, one is saying that we can't colonize other solar systems, the other that we must. They are probably both true.
  • Executive summary (Score:5, Informative)

    by charlie (1328) <charlie@NoSpAm.antipope.org> on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:22PM (#19542507) Homepage Journal
    I'd like to note that I'm not saying space colonization is impossible per se ... but that (a) it is really really difficult without breakthroughs in a number of key technologies (that we can't be certain will happen), (b) we're not going to see any economic return on investment from it, and (c) the motivations for it are essentially quasi-religious and ideological in nature.

    Using "the high frontier" and appeals to settler gumption and heroic individualism isn't the right paradigm; if it's going to happen we need to abandon certain cherished illusions (dwelt on at length) and start doing some hard thinking about what we really want.

  • I call BS (Score:5, Funny)

    by Timesprout (579035) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:23PM (#19542513)
    And as soon as I settle the rebellion on the outlying planets in the Sprouticus system I will be bringing my Imperial Battle Fleet to explain the situation to Mr Stross. Perhaps I will banish him to one of my penal planets, he can amuse the inmates with his so called logic.
  • Mac'D's (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:25PM (#19542527)
    $10 says we see a McDonalds on Mars before NASA arrives.
  • Clarke's first law (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Zarhan (415465) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:25PM (#19542529)
    When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.

    Generation ships. Suspended animation. Bussard Ramjets.

    Baby steps throughout Kuiper Belt and Oort Cloud.

      • by Afecks (899057) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:59PM (#19542839)
        Congratulations, you just proved that interstellar travel isn't currently possible.
      • by way2trivial (601132) on Sunday June 17 2007, @02:16PM (#19542969) Homepage Journal
        actually, it will only require one.. a method for freezing water that doesn't cause it to expand.
        the biggest problem with cold storage of humans is ice expands when it freezes, bursting cells.
        the whole basis of ice-9 was finding a new arrangement of h20 so that it wanted to become a solid when it touched other cells.. but it was a different 'stack' of molecules.

        what if you could either 1-find a way to stack h20 so it stayed the same size (most things shrink when they freeze, water is an exception) or 2- find a substitute molecule that could replace the water in a human corpus... one that also doesn't expand when frozen....

        • by hankwang (413283) * on Sunday June 17 2007, @02:33PM (#19543129) Homepage

          it will only require one.. a method for freezing water that doesn't cause it to expand.

          It already exists. Cooling water to 250 K (-23 C) at 3000 bars will do the job. Unfortunately, the pressure rather than the ice crystals will kill a human being at that type of pressure.

  • by HEbGb (6544) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:26PM (#19542533)
    This article is incredibly short-sighted and unreasonably pessimistic. He's using current technology, economics, and incentive to make specific conclusions about something that will most likely happen in the next few hundred years. Just consider how much science and technology has changed in the last 100 years - can you possibly imagine what will be possible 100 years from now, much less draw conclusions about feasibility?

    I think that technology's march is not only inevitable, but accelerating. To outright dismiss these possibilities is completely unreasonable and irrational.
    • by aminorex (141494) on Sunday June 17 2007, @03:06PM (#19543429) Homepage Journal
      Agreed.

      Rather than merely throwing one's hands up in the air and saying "it's too expensive, so it won't happen", which I think we all knew, isn't it more interesting to ask when it will no longer be too expensive? What was the cost of producing 2e18 joules in 1000 AD? 1900 AD? 2000 AD? Restricting ourselves to the post-Edison era, from 1882 to date, I observe that one man-year of US per-capita GDP will buy an exponentially increasing amount of energy:

      1882 - 1
      1900 - 2
      1932 - 8
      1941 - 26
      1960 - 114
      1970 - 231
      2005 - 442

      Thus, it requires 1.25 million man-years of economic output to send his "capsule" load to the stars today. But in 100 years, it may take 3000 or less, and in 500 years it should be easily within the entertainment budget of a single household.

      Of course past history is no guarantee of future performance!
  • by QuietLagoon (813062) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:30PM (#19542557)
    For a science fiction writer, he certainly seems to have limited his vision. In 1870, people would say we could not get to the moon because horses would not survive in the vacuum of space. Yet a short hundred years later, man was walking on the moon.

    He needs to envision new technologies and sciences to free us from this solar system. Who knows what will be invented and discovered in the next two or three hundred years? He certainly does not.

  • Magic Wands (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Zedrick (764028) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:31PM (#19542563)
    I didn't read TFA, but (from the summary):

    Charlie makes a clear-headed and unarguable case, so far as I can see, that it ain't gonna happen without a 'magic wand' or two

    So, what's the problem? Science has given us dozens of "magic wands" the last century, why would it stop now? In 50 years will will probably have lots of amazing thingamajings that we can't even begin to imagine now, like perhaps some StarTrekish warp-drive.
  • by gumpish (682245) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:36PM (#19542609) Journal
    The Singularity will hit us before any of the problems he describes would become tractable.

    And when it does, the question of how do you launch a meatbag in a life-support coffin to go X distance in Y time will be meaningless.
  • by Creepy Crawler (680178) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:37PM (#19542625)
    Well, of course we will. But we wont have our bodies.

    The first big tech is a brain/silicon bridge. Hawking is very correct on this. If we do create reconstructing nanobots and high-AI, we need good interfaces. In fact, we would at first need a device described in the Story of Manna [marshallbrain.com], in which a glucose fuel cell, a computer hooked up to nerves, and a wireless link are installed on C2-C4 of the vertebrae.

    Once we can maintain body computers, we can focus on yet even more miniaturization and also focus on near-Earth travel (Moon and Mars). However, it will come time that our bodies will die, yet our brains will live. That will usher in the time we have "Brains in a Jar".

    And yet, our tech will not be yet complete for star travel. We will need to be able to completely pattern a brain for all information and encode it so a certain computer can run it... a human brain image. Only when we can completely digitize our brains can we even cope with any stresses of space travel.

    However, when we are pure data, we can travel rather rapidly: we can spread nanobot spores that create factories (mini factories) on different planets and asteroids and can copy to the nanites what is received by maser or any other transmission method. When we can convert our brains to pure information, then we can transmit and travel at C.

    Then again, who knows what the real physics laws are... It'd be fun to see how far physics comes in 20000 years.
  • Energy requirements (Score:5, Interesting)

    by evanbd (210358) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:38PM (#19542637)

    He states that to get a Mercury Capsule sized vessel to 0.1c takes about the energy consumption of the planet for 5 days. OK, sounds about right. He then states that this makes it impossible (accounting for inefficiencies). I'm less willing to buy that.

    First reason: rockets are power hungry, yet we've done them before. When the Saturn V launched, instantaneous energy consumption in the US went up 6%. Sure, it's many orders of magnitude smaller, but the idea is the same: you store up the energy over a long period (antimatter, say), and then take it out in a hurry.

    Second reason: energy consumption of the world is climbing, and will continue to do so. It may get briefly more expensive as we have oil problems, but renewable and nuclear sources will counteract that (if they don't, space colonization is pretty much a moot point). Wait a hundred years, and the energy requirement will merely read like the largest project humanity has ever undertaken, not something entirely ridiculous.

    The basic error he's making is that he's arguing we can't do it with today's technology. Yup, I agree, but that's not the interesting question. I'll leave the question of whether things like generation ships can work from a social standpoint to others more qualified, but I'm confident they can *eventually* work from a technical one.

  • Impossible? (Score:5, Informative)

    by SlayerDave (555409) <elddm1@noSPaM.gmail.com> on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:45PM (#19542699) Homepage
    I read the entire article (which was excellent and well-reasoned), and nowhere did the author say space colonization was impossible. His argument is that it would be prohibitively expensive and technically impractical, but certainly not impossible. Colonization, especially of extrasolar planets, is extremely unlikely, but it is definitely physically possible, given the economic and and political will to do so.

    Very bad summary, subbie.

  • Quantum mechanics (Score:5, Interesting)

    I'd say wait on judging such a thing to be impossible until a well-established Grand Unified Theory comes together. Quantum mechanics could still be hiding plenty of "magic wands" that we don't know about yet. Interstellar travel certainly seems more plausible today than an atomic bomb must have seemed to Isaac Newton.
  • Magic? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Barkmullz (594479) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:58PM (#19542819)

    that it ain't gonna happen without a 'magic wand' or two

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

    - Arthur C. Clarke

    'nuff said.

  • by Colin Smith (2679) on Sunday June 17 2007, @02:15PM (#19542963)
    Cos just over the last 10,000 years we've evolved to be able to metabolise cow milk, over the last 100,000 or so we've evolved white skins in cool regions to improve production of vitamin D, our limbs have shortened in proportion to the rest of the body and become more muscular to aid with heat retention etc etc etc etc etc.

    And that's all in the blink of an eye... On interstellar and galactic timescales... You're going to have to tell me what a human being is.

     
  • by Fantastic Lad (198284) on Sunday June 17 2007, @07:13PM (#19545301)
    Aztec Elder: "Assuming that there even IS another land across the great Eastern Ocean, it will never be reached! Listen as I entrance you with my 3 wise points of wisdom. . .

    "Point 1: The Distances are really huge! If your hut was this sea shell, and the next city down the coast (which as we all know takes a full week to paddle to in our finest grass row-boat), is this pink rock I place one hand span away from the sea shell, then the Land Across the Ocean would be, -wait for it- fifty Aztec miles away! Think about that! It can't be done, durn it!"

    Assembled audience: "ooooh."

    Aztec Elder: "Point 2. Blah blah blah."

    Assembled audience: "aaaah."

    Aztec Elder: "Point 3. Blah blah blah."

    Assembled audience: "Say, what are those huge boat-looking things on the horizon. . ?"


    -FL -Who keeps leaving these circles in my durn field?!

  • Imagine if you will (Score:5, Interesting)

    by briancnorton (586947) on Sunday June 17 2007, @08:32PM (#19545747) Homepage
    Let's pretend that Jules Verne in 1895 was asked about the feasibility of destroying a city with a single bomb. His calculations would invariably conclude that he needed 7 million (?) tons of dynamite, or more dynamite than had been produced since it was invented, and enough to fill the 50 Roman Colosseums, presenting invariable logistic problems requiring 1,000,000 trucks bridges, ships, etc, OR, a "Magic Wand." The next 50 years saw the creation of powered flight, twinkies, and Nuclear weapons. In the following decades, we can now fit something like 100 mt of nuclear power onto an ICBM/bomber. (and the yield estimate he links to has to be way off)Mp>My point is that Magic Wands are the safe bet here.
    • Re:No shit (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:25PM (#19542521)
      It never ceases to amaze me at the perpetual and unwavering defeatist attitude expressed by people during every generation.

      It is mere physics obstacles that need to be overcome, that includes dimensional hopping or more likely controlled black-holes or worm holes, to colonize the galaxy.

      We will overcome the hurdles eventually, including the radiation, the vital resources, and spacial 'deserts'.

      To even say it is impossible or requires a 'magic wand' is absurd.

      author needs to revistit history and the countless times that silly notion was postured.
      • by spineboy (22918) on Sunday June 17 2007, @02:30PM (#19543103) Journal
        But we now know that it's not true. There is a class G star (like our own Suns class) only 5 light years away - a mere 50 years traveling at 10% C (it'll take about 34 days accelerating at a constant 1 G to reach 10% C).

        There are 50 star systems (66 stars because of several binary systems) within 16 light years of earth. 50 of these stars are M class or red in color - about 80% of these are red dwarfs - probably not a great place to look for habitable planets.

        It should be a fairly attainable goal to send out 20 ships to the 10 most likely close habitable stars, and expect to see a result in 60 or so years (50 years travelling + 10 years for radio message to be sent back)
          • Re:No shit (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Lemmy Caution (8378) on Sunday June 17 2007, @05:02PM (#19544457) Homepage
            I considered this when I chose the example. Alchemy included a lot of wasted effort. It 'became' chemistry as a kind of by-product. A lot of wasteful research generates useful by-products of knowledge, and I suspect that if we devoted a massive percentage of our resources and effort to a failed attempt to colonize another system, we would probably still get some useful inventions and discoveries on the side. It probably wouldn't be the best use of our resources.

            The author is a science fiction writer. Many people ascribe their choices of careers and fields of research to the science fiction they've read. The result of his essay may be this: someone is discouraged from a career in space exploration, and instead chooses one in nanotechnology or the bio-sciences, which could offer significant benefits now and later. The cost of not have a certain amount of naysaying would have been a huge opportunity cost: instead, this skepticism gives us a bright mind directed toward more promising lines of research. I don't think that's a bad thing.
    • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:40PM (#19542653)
      We can't colonize other planets now. However, given his fondness for analogies....

      If you collapsed the whole of human history down to a single day, we were wandering hunter-gatherers for 11 hours and 56 minutes. Only in the final four minutes before midnight have we been farming for a living, and in those four minutes our scientific knowledge (and achievements) have increased exponentially.

      In the last four minutes we went from spears and loincloths to long range missiles and synthetic fabrics. We are now the only species on the planet that can survive organ transplants, travel at hundreds of miles per hour, walk on the moon, and communicate instantly from opposite sides of the planet. All of this we gained in the last four minutes of our first day of existence as humans.

      The kind of scientific momentum we have going right now is mind-boggling. Things that our ancestors couldn't even imagine are now common reality. Imagine what kinds of "magic wands" our scientists will make for us tomorrow.

      I am not saying that interstellar colonization will be possible, I am just saying that a quick review of the history of science robs us of any grounds upon which to form an opinion of "it will never be possible."

    • Re:Impossible...? (Score:5, Interesting)

      by MightyMartian (840721) on Sunday June 17 2007, @01:25PM (#19542531) Journal
      Colonizing the galaxy is something that will take millions of years. Obviously such a plan is so far beyond our scope at the moment that it's laughable. Mind you, going from Australia to Los Angeles in less than a day was so far beyond our scope ten thousand years ago that it's laughable.

      The key question won't be the technology (whether it's generation ships, ships that can move near the speed of the light or faster-than-light vessels), but rather the motivation. At the moment, we can scarcely get most people to see the point of returning to the Moon, or of going to Mars. Where there's a military motivation (China's long-term space plans seem to have twigged the West) there's always a way, but unfortunately something as far removed from us in time and so egalitarian as Hawking's notion of saving the species as sending manned missions to other stars just doesn't get many beyond the dreamers heated up.

      We've been sending stuff to space for half a century, and sending humans for less than that. It's so ridiculously premature to start judging whether or not humanity will reach the stars that I can't see the point of such an article. It's one thing to raise the technical difficulties (which are insurmountable with our current technology), but grand proclamations like this usually fall into two categories; blowhards who like to shock and disappoint or people trying inept forms of reverse psychology.
    • Not just them. It's just a physical fact. Acclerate for 1 G for a year and you reach speed c. How one does that is another matter; how to shield yourself from hitting a "penny" at that speed and turning into plasma is another. Light, infrared and radio waves hit head-on would violet-shift into x-rays and cosmic rays, so you have to shield for that as well. And then there's the matter of navigating when you can't see out.
      • Acclerate for 1 G for a year and you reach speed c.
        No you don't. Relativity 101. It takes an infinite amount of energy to accelerate a mass (any mass) to the speed of light (because of Lorentz contraction). Indeed, applying a 1g acceleration for a year would only take you up to 215332822 m/s (i.e. a bit under 72%).

        (To work this out, compute how much momentum would be transferred to a 1kg object undergoing a 1g acceleration for a year, which I make to be about 309264480 kgm/s, and then solve the Lorentz equations [wikipedia.org] to compute the velocity relative to the initial "rest" frame from the momentum. Trivial really.)