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Power Generating Spacesuits

Posted by samzenpus on Wed Feb 14, 2007 09:14 PM
from the the-electric-slide dept.
Space Power Technology
Maggie McKee writes "Piezoelectric sensors could help power future space missions. Astronauts' spacesuits may one day be covered in motion-sensitive proteins that could generate power from the astronauts' movement, according to futuristic research being conducted by a new lab in Cambridge, Massachusetts, US. Such 'power skins' could also be used to coat future human bases on Mars, where they could produce energy from the Martian wind. Eventually, the biologically derived suits might even be able to heal themselves."
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[+] NASA Engineers Work on New Spacesuits 105 comments
NotCoward writes "In labs at Johnson Space Center, away from the buzz about NASA's new spaceship and its new missions to the moon and Mars, a group of engineers are plodding away at another piece of the puzzle: spacesuits. Astronaut apparel has evolved over the decades from Mercury's aluminum foil-looking outfits to the bulky, 275-pound whites now used on jaunts outside the space station. While it's too early in the process to know how the new space suits will look, the space agency is hoping to make new suits both high-tech and low-maintenance."
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  • Wouldn't this make it harder to move? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 14 2007, @09:19PM (#18019498)
    Seeing you can't get energy for free, and you can't even break even, wouldn't this just add to the resistance one would need to overcome to move?

    • Re:Wouldn't this make it harder to move? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Jeff Molby (906283) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @09:26PM (#18019540)
      Of course it would add resistance. Since we don't want their muscles atrophy, I would imagine the resistance is seen as a feature rather than a bug.

      • Re:Wouldn't this make it harder to move? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ceoyoyo (59147) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @09:50PM (#18019700)
        Except that you don't really want them getting extra exercise while they're in their suits -- one of the big problems with space construction is that working in space suits is very tiring. The rest of the time it's not enough to exercise to prevent muscle atrophy... you also have to load your bones to prevent bone loss.
        • Make the astronauts inside wear the power suits, then connect them via power cord to the astronaut in the space suit? (I don't know if this defeats the purpose, but aren't astronauts already attached to the ship with a cable anyway?)

    • The energy doesn't come from nowhere (Score:4, Interesting)

      by EmbeddedJanitor (597831) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @10:14PM (#18019822)
      This means that the astronaut will have to work harder (consuming more fuel/oxygen, generating more waste heat that needs to be processed). A human working flat out is only good for a few hundred watts. In space that would be hard to achieve. Anyone who has tried doing hard physical work in weightlessness will tell you how difficult that is. I have not worked in space, but I have worked underwater which was pretty difficult.

      Sure this would give them a much needed work-out, but that is far better to do inside where there is better oxygen supply, waste heat/water processing etc.. Rather use an exercise bike driving a generator which is likely to be far more efficient.

      Basically this sounds far more like a solution looking for a problem that anything really useful.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by mcrbids (148650)
        A human working flat out is only good for a few hundred watts.

        My thoughts exactly. The amount of power possible is just minute - enough to run a few LED lights and maybe a micro-radio. (and then only as long as you don't broadcast)

        Whoopie!

        It's like the guy who wanted to generate power from the falling water in his rain gutters....

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by PeolesDru (535625)
          Even more so - It's like the guy who wanted to generate power from the falling water in his rain gutters - who stands outside all day spraying water on his roof.

  • Power generating? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Stormx2 (1003260) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @09:20PM (#18019506)
    What? The suits are powered by the astronauts' movement, and that energy is provided by food? It's more conserving energy than anything. If we could somehow train our astronauts not to play golf on missions, we could save billions on R&D.

    Anyway, I just love the capitalisation of "Could" in mid-sentence.
    • Since there's no hyphen between "power" and "generating", I can only conclude that some sort of POWER is spontaneously creating SPACESUITS.

      Either that, or the Slashdot editors are just illiterate.
  • ...I'm sure all they want is more of their own personal energy dumped into flexing their suits...
    • Yeah, I was thinking that. As long as their spacewalks can take, I'd want something that's power-assist, not power-robbing...

    • Re:Great, but ask the astronauts first... (Score:5, Funny)

      by gardyloo (512791) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @10:00PM (#18019748)
      Pfft. Lack of vision. Just put some motors at the suits' joints. Problem solved, right?

          Plus, that'd be kick-ass great for loading ships and fighting the occasional alien queen.
    • NASA always does. Whenever NASA makes a change to the suit, they have former or current astronauts (I think former) test them out. Almost every modification they have made to the suit has been made because of some insight gained from past missions. It is not always clear what would cause trouble in the suits. In other words, its a given.
    • ...I'm sure all they want is more of their own personal energy dumped into flexing their suits...

      I think a PV panel would be a better choice. It would consume less oxygen in limited supply in the suit, produce less waste heat in the suit, and best of all, there is never a cloudy day, just a very infrequent eclipse.
  • Astronauts' spacesuits may one day be covered in motion-sensitive proteins that could generate power from the astronauts' movement ... Such 'power skins' could also be used to coat future human bases on Mars, where they could produce energy from the Martian wind.

    But what about producting power from the Astronauts' wind?
  • Astronauts covered in proteins! that sounds like it could be a new pay website!
  • This was a technology that appeared in KSR's Mars Trilogy [wikipedia.org] . Wonder where he got it from? (It's not an unobvious idea -- we've had piezoelectric buzzers for many years, and running them in reverse can't be too crazy an idea.)

    • Re:Kim Stanley Robinson's Red Mars (Score:5, Insightful)

      by fiannaFailMan (702447) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @09:35PM (#18019598) Journal

      Wonder where he got it from?
      The stillsuits in Frank Herbert's Dune?
    • I remember something from the 70s, don't remember if it was a patent or not, but it described a device shaped like a shoe innersole. The thing had pizeoelectric pads that turned the pressure from walking into heat to keep the wearer's feet warm during the winter. Never heard about it again, so I don't know if any were ever made, but the idea's been around for awhile.
      • You don't need a fancy device for that. Just use a piece of foam. Turning useful kinetic energy into worthless heat is one of the simplest things anyone can do.

        By far the best thing you can do to keep your feet warm though is make sure your shoes are appropriately sized. If you don't get enough circulation to the foot, it doesn't matter how well insulated your boot is, you're going to have chilly feet.

      • The thing had pizeoelectric pads that turned the pressure from walking into heat to keep the wearer's feet warm during the winter.

        You don't need this when walking. It's when you stand still you start freezing on your feet. That's why you've never heard anything more of the idea. But if you want heated innersoles now, you can buy (or make yourself) one with batteries quite easily. 1/2 - 5 watts per shoe is enough, so a few AA-batteries will suffice. Unless your requirements are extreme (e.g. tight dancing

  • could may might (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 14 2007, @09:37PM (#18019612)
    "...Could ...may ... could .... could ... could .... might...."

    Every geek on /. could get laid this year, and womankind may decide that brilliance could be a more important attribute than charisma. We could end up seeing a world that could be different than it is. This might happen anytime now.

  • Why piezo-electric? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by 140Mandak262Jamuna (970587) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @09:39PM (#18019628) Journal
    Given that no machine has 100% efficiency, these generators cant produce more energy than what the astronauts muscles could deliver. So dont confuse these with generating power like in solar cells or nuclear reactors. But there is always need for electrical energy so they might come in handy. But why these piezo-electrics? I have seen WW-II era footage of soldiers ing tiny generators by hand or by legs to power their radio sets.

    The apocryphal story of NASA spending millions of dollars to invent a pressurized ball point pen that would work in zero gravity and USSR deciding to use a pencil comes to my mind.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      >The apocryphal story of NASA spending millions of dollars to invent a
      >pressurized ball point pen that would work in zero gravity and USSR
      >deciding to use a pencil comes to my mind.

      Every try sharpening a pencil in space? The bits of graphite and wood shavings floating around are quite annoying.

        • how about *drumroll* mechanical pencil! clicky-clicky and presto, you have more .05 or .07mm graphite to scribble away to your underworked and low-g hart's content.

          =)

          If they managed to store this energy in batteries, they could wear the suits indoors generating power for later use and thus avoiding that extra workout that others have complained about. I mean, since this is all vaporware sci-fi...

    • snopes.com, please... (Score:4, Informative)

      by SuperBanana (662181) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @10:32PM (#18019940)

      The apocryphal story of NASA spending millions of dollars to invent a pressurized ball point pen that would work in zero gravity and USSR deciding to use a pencil comes to my mind.

      The one that's a blatantly not true? I'm against space exploration for many reasons, but even I know this story is utter bullshit [snopes.com].

      1)Fisher developed the space pen without a dime from NASA, and sold them to NASA at a reasonable price.

      2)Both the US and USSR used pencils.

      3)Both stopped using them because the dust/filings/broken tips floating around were bad for people and equipment.

      Incidentally, I have a Fisher pen; it's the smallest one they make (I think), a two-piece unit where the cap flips around to make it a full-length pen. It's a great pocket pen; the ink seems to be quick-drying (left-handed people will appreciate this and know what I mean), not too pricey ($10 I think? Maybe $15?) small, always works, and with the cap off, it's a full-size writing implement and very sturdy when "assembled." Not like one of those cheesy telescoping jobbies that bend and are too thin to hold. An o-ring-like seal keeps the cap on firmly when stored and keeps the laundry detergent out (yes, proven more than once.)

      It's quick to whip out (cough) and always works, unlike half the pens at cashiers which a)can't be found and b)barely work. It also garners the occasional impressed comment. My only beef is that the clip came off after a month or so in my pocket- would have been nice if they had spot-welded it on instead of just press-fitting it.

      • google.com, please... (Score:4, Informative)

        by aztektum (170569) on Thursday February 15 2007, @12:11AM (#18020466)
        Type define:apocryphal and hit search. Unless you were suggesting it isn't strong enough word to illustrate your stance. In which case, "utter bullshit" definitely fits the bill.

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Eevee (535658)

      The apocryphal story of NASA spending millions of dollars to invent a pressurized ball point pen that would work in zero gravity and USSR deciding to use a pencil comes to my mind.

      apocryphal - Definition: Of questionable authenticity; spurious.

      I'm curious why you would use a story you know is fake [snopes.com] for support? Gutsy move admiting it, though.

      While it's true these can not produce more energy than the astronaut's muscles can produce, that isn't relevant for a lot of applications. For example, there ar

    • But why these piezo-electrics?

      Why do questions get modded up, when they are already fully explained in the article?

      Efficiency: prestin may be 10,000 times more efficient at generating power than the best manmade material.

      Weight: minimising the weight of generators, batteries

      Maintenance: harness the ability of biological mechanisms to self-assemble.

      Now go sit in the corner and think about what you did.
    • "I have seen WW-II era footage of soldiers ing tiny generators by hand or by legs to power their radio sets."

      It sounds like they are going for something that would require no additional effort from the astronauts. They have better things to do than rotate a generator in a huge spaceship that already has ample power (compared to a hand-cranked generator at least).

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Chris Mattern (191822)

        "I have seen WW-II era footage of soldiers ing tiny generators by hand or by legs to power their radio sets."

        It sounds like they are going for something that would require no additional effort from the astronauts.
        [snip]

        The problem is, they can't. You can't get something for nothing. If the suit generates electricity when the astronaut moves, then it will offer resistance to the astronaut's movement; that's basic conservation of energy. The question is, how *much* will it hamper the astronaut? If it's to

  • T-1000 (Score:3, Funny)

    by SeaFox (739806) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @09:56PM (#18019724)

    Eventually, the biologically derived suits might even be able to heal themselves.

    Allowing them to continue their pursuit of John Connor despite multiple shotgun hits.

  • A more sensible plan (Score:3)

    by edwardpickman (965122) on Wednesday February 14 2007, @10:01PM (#18019754)
    Wouldn't it make more sense to send up a female mudwrestler greased rather than covered in protein? Seems like more power would be generated and selling the videos could generate much needed cash.
  • The guy patented the molecule. The one we all have in our ears. And he patented it. Did I mention he's got the actual patent on it?

    Sorry, got carried away a little. So, this guy, who actually patented the naturally occurring protein which generates electricity in response to vibration, and so presumably knows what he's talking about, has no earthly clue how this power could be utilized. What is the article about then, exactly? Is it to draw attention to an interesting peculiarity of some organic compound? T
  • The amount of energy will come from the wearer. Which means more food and oxygen.
    It's likely more efficient to simply have a small fuel cell.

    That's the problem with many "new energy sources" they aren't really sources.
    • Exactly. The energy conversion efficiency of lungs+muscles is about 3% versus around 30% for an internal combustion engine (for fairly obvious reasons: much higher temp/pressure in engines means more efficiency, people are people not high efficiency energy->work convertors.)
  • ...and I carry the power supply with me at all times. Time to generate some power....*ahhhhhhhh* *grin*

  • Is this something that may be practical in boats? Get not only trust but also electrical energy from sails? In addition is this something that could be used on the massive sails mentioned here on slashdot before as an addition to tankers to help cut down fuel use? If so this could be pretty freaking sweet when it advances.
    • If you want electrical energy from wind, we already have something called a turbine that will do that. It could also be used to generate electrical energy from movement through water. I can't see how coating sails and/or fuselage with proteins would help that. The idea is that sails/fuselage should be optimal for generating movement in the direction you want, not for generating electricity.

  • Energy efficiency, not generation. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by aibrahim (59031) <slashmail&zenera,com> on Wednesday February 14 2007, @10:49PM (#18020016) Homepage Journal
    There is a lot of complaining that this will make the suits harder to bend and a number of other non-sense.

    The point is that a lot of energy is already wasted by normal movement. It goes into things like crushing your shirt sleeves, friction, sound etc.

    You have to make the space suits out of something... it may as well be something that can recapture energy normally wasted in motion.

    Some have brought up the notion that these types of devices use more energy to make than they can capture. If it costs more energy to make the suits than they can generate... well that is irrelevant. The energy would be expended on Earth, so the mission gains some energy efficiency for "free." This becomes a consideration only if the suit has to be manufactured during the mission... perhaps as a replacement.

    Don't get me wrong... this is far from the primary way to get energy. Take the example from the article of using this to generate energy from the Martian wind. Instead we might use this "wind mill" technology. However, if you have wind buffeting a static structure, it makes some sense to capture some of that energy if (and that's a huge IF) you can do so just by changing the materials used on the exterior. It may make more sense to coat the windmills with this stuff, and build the shelters underground.
  • So they're investigating a protein for piezoelectric power generation. But where does the connection to space exploration come in? If you want to generate electricity, using humans is not your best option. You're better off combusting fuel to generate steam to power a turbine (and then recycling the steam). Humans require carbohydrates and oxygen to produce mechanical work with water and CO2 as byproducts. Combustion engines do the same thing, only much more efficiently.

    Sounds like a bunch of researcher

    • If you want to generate electricity, using humans is not your best option

      There was a movie called the matrix that said otherwise. There even was a matrix 2 and 3, so it can't be completely without merit.

  • wouldn't using the little piezoelectric crystals used in microphones and certain watches to produce electricity from motion be a lot simpler then trying to figure out a way to get proteins from our ears to do the same job a lot less efficiently ? Sounds like a waste of research funds to me!
    • [...]figure out a way to get proteins from our ears to do the same job a lot less efficiently ? Sounds like a waste of research funds to me!

            It does? If it sound like that, you haven't upgraded your ear-protein to the PiezoTimpanum2008 yet. Get with it, man!
  • Another clue that the article should not be taken seriously is the following quote: "Peter Dallos of Northwestern University in Illinois, US, which patented the prestin molecule in 2003, says prestin may be 10,000 times more efficient at generating power than the best manmade material." That makes no sense. Efficiencies for converting mechanical power to electricity can be quite high (e.g., greater than 80%). Even if one were talking about efficiencies on the order of only 20% (such as we see with photov
    • Agreed - I scrolled through the whole thread to see if anyone else would mention this.

      The other thing that tickles me is, "Such 'power skins' could also be used to coat future human bases on Mars, where they could produce energy from the Martian wind."

      There's no way a jillion, zillion interconnected piezo-electric protein boogers are going to match the brutish output of a typical 10MW wind turbine for power generation. What space agency in their right mind would even consider the idea of something like
      • What I wonder is how they got the chicken in the space suit! As for cooking the omelette you make a solar oven (yes this does exist...backpackers use them)

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