Stories
Slash Boxes
Comments
Search

News for nerds, stuff that matters

Slashdot Log In

Log In

Create Account  |  Retrieve Password

Scientists Attempt To Calm Volcano

Posted by samzenpus on Wed Jan 31, 2007 08:58 PM
from the you-can-plug-anything dept.
Science
An anonymous reader writes "Since May 2006, a mud volcano in Indonesia has spewed out up to 126,000 cubic metres of mud a day, flooding an area of more than 4 square kilometres. This unprecedented natural disaster has become so bad that geophysicists now plan to enact an untested scheme to try and slow the flow: dropping concrete balls into the volcano."
+ -
story
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.

Scientists Attempt To Calm Volcano 50 Comments More /

 Full
 Abbreviated
 Hidden
More
Loading... please wait.

  • tha audacity! (Score:5, Funny)

    by User 956 (568564) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @08:59PM (#17837112) Homepage
    This unprecedented natural disaster has become so bad that geophysicists now plan to enact an untested scheme to try and slow the flow: dropping concrete balls into the volcano.

    They've got a lot of balls, trying something like that.

    • Re:tha audacity! (Score:5, Funny)

      by antarctican (301636) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:39PM (#17837536) Homepage
      They've got a lot of balls, trying something like that.

      High pressure, large projectile type object....

      Why do I have visions of this turning in to one giant canon? :)

      • Re:tha audacity! (Score:5, Funny)

        by lysergic.acid (845423) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @10:09PM (#17837826) Homepage
        yea, if they wanted to calm it down, they shoulda just poured a few truckloads of valium into it instead.

        • Re:tha audacity! (Score:5, Funny)

          by Lloyd_Bryant (73136) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @11:37PM (#17838576)

          yea, if they wanted to calm it down, they shoulda just poured a few truckloads of valium into it instead.
          The *traditional* method is to toss in a virgin (hey, if somebody tossed ME a virgin, I'd calm down....eventually).

          Unfortunately this method runs afoul of modern legislations (it violates the Endangered Species Act).

          • The *traditional* method is to toss in a virgin
            In Soviet Russia, Virgins toss you !

            (Vulgar English slang, sorry)

      • Just a thought. I had this flash back of a WKRP [about.com] Sit-Com TV show.

    • A more practical solution (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Alien54 (180860) on Thursday February 01 2007, @12:18AM (#17838966) Journal
      would be to explode a deeply placed high explosive device, in the range of kilotons. The idea is to breakup the the flow channels, and let it collapse on itself and clog itself up. The explosive does not have to be nuclear, but it needs to be both large and deeply located. Correct placement would help as well.

      • Re:A more practical solution (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ColaMan (37550) on Thursday February 01 2007, @03:34AM (#17840272) Homepage Journal
        would be to explode a deeply placed high explosive device, in the range of kilotons.

        Except for that tedious problem of obtaining, placing and detonating a few thousand tons of HE in the right spot deep down inside a mud volcano that is busily spewing mud upwards.

        But that's just a minor engineering problem, isn't it?

        • Re:A more practical solution (Score:5, Funny)

          by Anonymous Know-It-Al (1000756) on Thursday February 01 2007, @07:31AM (#17841414)
          Except for that tedious problem of obtaining, placing and detonating a few thousand tons of HE in the right spot deep down inside a mud volcano that is busily spewing mud upwards. But that's just a minor engineering problem, isn't it?

          This is were Bruce Willis comes in.

      • Re:A more practical solution (Score:5, Informative)

        by phayes (202222) on Thursday February 01 2007, @05:49AM (#17840942) Homepage
        As I remember it from the initial stories, the problem arose when the oil company drilled through a relatively thin clay layer into a very thick mud bearing layer under very high pressure. The clay layer acted as a dike to stop the underlying liquids from migrating upward. Normal drilling technique when such geography is present would have been to insert a liner in the drillhole in order to protect the clay strata from erosion, but this was not employed here. When the drillhole pierced the clay strata, the high pressure mud below it quickly eroded the initial breach into a large breach which followed the drillhole upward to transform it into the mud volcano that now exists.


        It is a situation that has a lot in common with the levee breaches in NO after Katrina. In NO, initial attempts to repair the levee breaches by transporting large, heavy blocks into the breaches were unsuccessful as the breaches were just too large and the blocks were swept away. I expect the big ball method described in TFA to have as little effect as the big block method did in NO. It was only when the water levels equalized in NO that the corps were able to finally seal off the breaches.

        It seems to me that your method of using explosives to fix the problem would do nothing to help and would probably only widen the breach in the clay layer, much as using explosives would not have helped in NO. Using explosives in the mud bearing layer is impractical (beyond just getting the into place as another poster noted) as the mud bearing layer is too thick to be obstructed in this manner. Using explosives in the clay layer would only widen the breach. Using explosives above the clay layer would do nothingf as the pressure is already high enough to work it's way to the surface once it is through the clay layer.

        The only means of resealing the breach as I see it would be to drill through the clay layer (using liners to protect the clay from erosion) and then inject cement in large enough quantities to cause a plug to be formed below the clay. I have no idea if it is feasible as I do not know how large the breach has become and how much cement could be pumped in before being swept away.

        The "experiment" described in TFA where the debit was halved by plugging one out of two holes in a bottle is false as there is only one hole at present. Even if they achieve their goal of dumping the balls so that they settle on the clay layer, the mudflow will just erode around them and create a yet larger breach as nothing in the plan allows for the erosion of the mud layer.

  • Sacrifice a virgin (Score:5, Funny)

    by antifoidulus (807088) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:03PM (#17837164) Homepage Journal
    I'm sure you can find plenty here *looks around nervously*
  • This was not a natural disaster: [iht.com]

    The disaster occurred as the company, Lapindo Brantas, drilled thousands of feet to tap natural gas and used practices that geologists, mining engineers and Indonesian officials described as faulty.
    but a poster child for why environmental regulation is a cornerstone to a successful economy:

    Eight villages are completely or partly submerged, with homes and more than 20 factories buried to the rooftops. Some 13,000 people have been evacuated. The four-lane highway west of here has been cut in two, as has the rail line, dealing a serious blow to the economy of this region in East Java, an area vital to the country's economy. The muck has already inundated an area covering one and a half square miles.
    Sadly, the company responsible is shirking their responsibilities:

    But as the liabilities have escalated, Lapindo was sold - for $2 - last month to an offshore company, owned by the Bakrie Group, and many fear it will declare bankruptcy, allowing its owners to walk away.
    Have a look at some hi res satellite images of the disaster [nus.edu.sg]
    • From the Wiki link in the article:"About 86% of released gases are methane, with much less carbon dioxide and nitrogen emitted"

      I wonder what the greenhouse gas contribution of this mud volcano is, especially since methane traps more heat than CO2.

    • Re:Not a natural disaster. (Score:5, Funny)

      by umbrellasd (876984) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:43PM (#17837580)
      The real disaster will come when citizens start dying left and right from the concrete bowling balls that come spewing out of the volcano. "Ok, maybe we were wrong on the drilling thing, but concrete bowling balls--that's a no brainer; nothing can possibly go wrong."

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward

      Wow, that's really serious.

      Here's a coral cached version of the link, the server was melting...

      These before/after pictures show the damage this mud is causing:
      http://www.crisp.nus.edu.sg.nyud.net:8090/coverage s/mudflow/index_IK_p3.html [nyud.net]

      Here's links to the rest of the pictures:
      http://www.crisp.nus.edu.sg.nyud.net:8090/coverage s/mudflow/index.html [nyud.net]

      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by sporkme (983186) *
        The drilling company is owned by members of their government.
        From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidoarjo_mud_flow [wikipedia.org]:

        The drilling company Lapindo Brantas was a subsidiary owned by PT Energi Mega Persada Tbk, in turn 60% owned and controlled by the Bakrie Group. [9] The Bakrie Group is owned by the Coordinating Minister for the People's Welfare Aburizal Bakrie and his brothers[10]. Lapindo Brantas has taken over the initial responsibility and costs caring for the mitigation of the effects of the mud flow. It in

  • Doesn't seem like a good idea (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dickeya (733264) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:06PM (#17837208)
    As one of the physicists said "The mud will find another way out". Maybe if they plug the hole, enough pressure will build up to cause a real eruption.

    These events happen for a reason. It's the planet's way of staying in balance.

  • That should work just fine (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Weaselmancer (533834) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:08PM (#17837234)

    Ever have a bottle of soda suddenly start spraying? How well does sticking your thumb over the nozzle help?

    • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

      by neax (961176)
      what? untested...? This might be the equivalent of throwing ice-cubes into a vat of hot oil...

  • It'll never work (Score:5, Funny)

    by Loadmaster (720754) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:11PM (#17837258) Homepage
    They want to drop concrete balls into it? Do you take concrete balls when you have an upset stomach? Me neither. What they need is a dump truck full of Tums and a concrete mixer full of Mylanta. If that doesn't work you can always use a virgin. But concrete balls? These "scientists" need to get a real scientist--a witch doctor. They're witches and they're doctors. That's a lot of school. And if they can't fix it you can just throw them in there and save your concrete balls for outside a library or something.

    Swi

    • Re:It'll never work (Score:5, Interesting)

      by sumdumass (711423) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @10:33PM (#17838028) Journal
      Well, They are basicly dropping Tums and mylanta into it. The active ingredients of Tums involve calcium carbonate. One of the active ingredients of Mylanta is Aluminum Hydroxide. Note the core elements are calcium and aluminum. The compounds allow them to be digested and used easily in the body.

      The chemical make up of concrete (portland cement mainly) is mostly
      1. Tricalcium silicate
      2. Dicalcium silicate
      3. Tricalcium aluminate
      4. Tetracalcium aluminoferrite
      5. Gypsum
      Notice that these are all compounds of calcium and aluminum. I asume the heated water will help disolve them.

      pfft, we have just solve this problem. Give us another challenge ;)

      Strange how close you are. The witch doctor might add some value too. Maybe they can start a cultist religion surounding the "apeasing the volcano god" and use the funds from the colection plate to pay for the balls. Once a month the witch doctor could say the volcano god said supply it with Tums or it will cause destruction just before the colection plate is passed around.

      • Re:It'll never work (Score:4, Informative)

        by AndersOSU (873247) on Thursday February 01 2007, @10:58AM (#17843990)
        I don't know if you're trolling or not, but since you've been modded so highly someone needs to correct these horrible mis-statements.

        First, you have the antacid chemistry precisely backwards. The active part is the hydroxide. You know the part that isn't an acid... as in antacid. The aluminum is there in the Mylanta because they wanted a stable liquid formulation, which hyroxides usually aren't. Aluminum hydroxide is an insoluble salt, and very stable on the shelf, until it reacts with your stomach acids neutraling them.

        Second, the "active" part of the concrete is the silicate. The calcium and aluminum are there because when they hydrate in the presence of sulfates (the gypsum) they act as binders. A binder is undeniably useful, but alternatively we could line our streets with mined chunks of silicate and if would be similar to concrete. The only reason we need the binders is so that we can grind it up for easy transport, slurry it for easy application, and it will still be hard like silicate when all is said and done.

  • Is it just my filthy internet-corrupted mind, or did anyone else immediately think "dog in a bathtub"

    No I'm not linking, go and look it up if you must

  • Cool! (Score:3, Informative)

    by second class skygod (242575) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:15PM (#17837304)
    Like I always say:
    There's pretty much nothing that can't be accomplished if you have big enough balls.

  • How Interesting (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:16PM (#17837312)
    Teabagging a volcano...

  • Dangerous (Score:5, Informative)

    by jonadab (583620) <`ten.thgirb' `ta' `badanoj'> on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:16PM (#17837314) Homepage Journal
    Sounds like a good way to turn a shield volcano into a stratovolcano.

    The milk jug analogy is flawed. With holes in the bottom of a milk jug, it's just gravity that lets the water pour out under the force of its own weight, so yes, plugging one hole, or plugging the hole halfway, reduces the rate of flow and doesn't change the pressure -- because there's no pressure in the first place.

    Hook up a garden hose to the milk jug and then try it, though, and you've got an entirely different situation. Now you can turn the jug _over_, so that the holes are on the top, and you'll still get water squirting out, just like mud flowing *up* out of a volcano, against gravity. Plug one of the holes in the jug then, and you will indeed get more flow out the other hole.

    If the article accurately describes their strategy, they're only going to make matters worse, not better.
    • It is incorrect to say that there is no pressure at the bottom of the milk jug. There *is* pressure due to the weight of water above the holes. This is why the water will come out of the holes at a higher rate when the jug is nearly full than when it's almost empty.

      The garden hose analogy is also a tad flawed. If you attach the hose to the jug the jug will wind up being at same the pressure of the hose whether there's one hole or two in it.

      An analogy that is actually applicable in this case is that of a

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by sumdumass (711423)
        The think best effect this might have should be compared with a percolator coffee pot. Their approach is trying to reach a different means but it could have a positive effect for other reasons. And I beleive the solution they are trying is simular to the same process of a percolator even though they are only trying to block the channel the mud is comming from..

        Now, If you examine a percolator you will notice a tube with a wide part at the bottom and narrower at the top. The large surface area of the heated

            • Re:Almost right... (Score:4, Interesting)

              by phayes (202222) on Thursday February 01 2007, @08:03AM (#17841646) Homepage
              Your percolator analogy still has little to do with the mud volcano's processes. The percolator works because the water vapour bubbles upwards and induces motion in the surrounding liquid. By bringing the heat into the process you're only confusing the issue as dissolved gasses have very little to do with it.

              Instead of using a percolator, imagine a waterbed covered with books. The water in the bed is the mud layer, the membrane containing the water is the clay layer, and the books represent the earth above the clay. Once the membrane containing the water is pierced, the weight of the books forces the water out much as the weight of the earth is now forcing the water out of the bed. Now imagine that the water in the bed erodes the hole once it has been made making the problem worse.

              To stop a percolator, turn off the heat. To fix a leaky waterbed, you need to patch the liner or wait until all the water drains out.

  • Just use (Score:5, Funny)

    by geekoid (135745) <dadinportlandNO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:18PM (#17837338) Homepage Journal
    Chuck Norris's balls.

    I don't know why I said that.
  • Last November they were tossing in live chickens and goats......
  • Time to call in Indy for some special consultation. Next thing you know, they'll be dropping natives, snakes, and Nazis into the volcano.
  • Pun intended. Does anyone else forsee in this the comedy that will likely unfold? I fully expect to read a story next week about a vocano in Indonesia that is firing concrete balls into the orbit and that they're taking our Chinese satellites or that they're pummeling a nearby city. I liken this to sticking your finger in the end of a shotgun barrel.

  • Water Bottle Example (Score:4, Insightful)

    by MidnightBrewer (97195) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:36PM (#17837514)
    So they demonstrated their theory using a water bottle with two holes cut in the bottom, and showed how covering one hole slowed the rate of water leaving the bottle. That's all good and fine, but we're talking about water that's responding to the force of gravity, not pent-up pressure and geothermal heating. If the weight of the balls can counteract that, great, but if that's their idea of a physically accurate analogy, I think they might be in for some surprises. Here's hoping it works, anyway, despite their faulty physics.

  • I see they are using rule 6 (Score:5, Informative)

    by jon787 (512497) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @09:43PM (#17837582) Homepage Journal
    The opposing viewpoint shown in the article reminds me of the 6th networking truth:

    "It is easier to move a problem around (for example, by moving the problem to a different part of the overall network architecture) than it is to solve it." --RFC1925

  • Traditional methods? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by myowntrueself (607117) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @10:10PM (#17837836)
    So how, exactly, is this any different from the traditional volcano-god appeasement technique of throwing hundreds of naked virgins into the volcano? Apart from being less exciting.

  • Aren't we missing the most obvious solution here?

    We are geeks after all. And we know what will calm a volcano.

    V I R G I N S

    O.K., I need 3 Linux nerds, and 3 Linux nerdettes (come on, you know, you mention Linux at a party, you ain't getting laid).

    Volunteers?

    Free trip to Indonesia.

  • Scientists Attempt To Calm Volcano (Score:4, Funny)

    by SeaFox (739806) on Wednesday January 31 2007, @10:17PM (#17837888)
    Have they tried burping it? It might have a little gas trapped it its belly. That and a story should get it to calm right down.

  • Already Tried (Score:3, Funny)

    by MadnessASAP (1052274) <madnessasap@gmail.com> on Wednesday January 31 2007, @11:16PM (#17838404)

    dropping concrete balls into the volcano.
    I already tried that and ended up sleeping on the couch for my efforts. They should try some flowers instead.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Here in L.A., we diverted the flows on Wilshire into the Ballona Creek using concrete barriers... oh wait, that also was a movie.

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2009 Geeknet, Inc.