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New Nerve Gas Antidotes

Posted by Zonk on Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:23 AM
from the i've-never-had-the-nerve dept.
Biotech Science
SoyChemist writes "Scientists from Korea and the Czech Republic have discovered new drugs that can counteract the chemical overload caused by nerve gas. All of the experimental medications belong to a family of chemicals called oximes. Those molecules reactivate the enzyme that is damaged by the chemical weapons. Last year, the FDA approved the first combined atropine and oxime auto-injector for use by emergency personnel. Israel has been providing them to their citizens since the first Gulf War."
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Submission: New Nerve Gas Antidotes by SoyChemist (1015349)
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  • Combined, yes. But not new. (Score:5, Informative)

    by lecithin (745575) on Friday November 30 2007, @12:28AM (#21528853)
    "Last year, the FDA approved the first combined atropine and oxime auto-injector for use by emergency personnel."

    I don't know the history, but in 1987(and certainly earlier) the US military had this for the 'troops'. It was in 2 injectors, not one.

    atropine and 2 pam chloride (a oxime)
    • In Australia you can get atropine inhalers for extraordinary cases of asthma. Good for snake bite too.

      Although I used to carry a bottle of whiskey for snake bite. And two snakes.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by budgenator (254554)
        A typical dose for atropine is 0.4 mg and is that very useful for colds and before surgery or dental work becuase it dries you up pretty good and ounces stuff isn't running down your throat; for nerve gas antidote that typical dose of atropine is 2.0 mg and it's not unusual for a second dose to be give 10 minutes later if the patients heart rate isn't at 120 and is very usful for keeping gallons of stuff from running down your thorat. We also classify nerve agent as reversable and irriversable i.e. a trver

    • Re:Combined, yes. But not new. (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Novae D'Arx (1104915) on Friday November 30 2007, @12:42AM (#21528921) Homepage
      Like you said - Pralidoxime and Atropine injectors are extremely old-school for the US military. Although I'm happy that there are new drugs for treating nerve gas poisoning, TFA makes it sound like the "new" drugs are still completely untested - only on petri dish models, if I read it correctly. So, while there is promise, there are no human or animal efficiency results yet, no toxicity tests - all kinds of things are needed to prove that these new molecules are appropriate to replace the old ones.

      That's the thing about new drugs - they look wonderful and promising for a while in the lab, then you stick them in a monkey and his testicles melt or his hair falls out. Oops - back to the drawing board.

      Anyway, I'm skeptical but hopeful. I've had biochem weapons training in the Army, and nerve gases are effing nasty. More power to providing more survivability...

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Mr. Freeman (933986)
        The FDA isn't going to approve it without sufficient testing. Although there's no way they exposed a human to nerve gas and then used these drugs to see if it worked, there's no way that kind of test will EVER happen. The best they can do is what they've already done and that was sufficient to get it approved.

        Also, these drugs don't need to be tested as thoroughly as other drugs that would be taken on a normal basis. For example, the Advil you buy at the store had better damn well be tested enough that y
        • And of course if it kills your family gets to sue the drug company, even though you were going to die anyway. Win/win.
        • But, how much do we know of whether China, Japan, Russia, and even the USA (at Aberdeen Proving Grounds/Georgia/name some not-really-heard-much-about-place in USA) DID test on live persons, maybe prisoners granted early release for participation?

          If the FDA IS approving of them then viable results must have happened. As to whether "early release" is true, it could mean early release from "corporeal day-to-day existence". Can't have parolees blabbing that they got out early for accepting horrid injections wit

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by theMerovingian (722983)

        then you stick them in a monkey and his testicles melt or his hair falls out

        Military members are statutorily barred from suing the government for injuries arising in the line of duty. See here. [senate.gov]

        Government contractors are also immune from products liability suits, so long as the product in question was designed according to military specifications. See here. [shu.edu]

        Things the recruiter doesn't tell you... Hopefully the government tests carefully before using!
        • Hopefully the government tests carefully before using!



          Of course they will ! Why, they've got plenty of test subjects that can't sue if anything goes wrong.

        • Yep, I remember that I too had to go thru the two-arms injection/cattle door, too. Simultaneous injections in each arm, almost like a hypo spray in Star Trek, IIRC...

          Most of us got sick for a few days, up to a week or more for some. Cold-like symptoms, tho some felt like it was the flu. We were told it was to keep us all from becoming sick from one another as with 70-90 ppl in a given barracks all sorts of bugs/illnesses converge to further weaken those weak or sick upon arrival to boot camp.

          Thing is, we n

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by neapolitan (1100101)
        Exactly - every doctor learned this back in medical school; atropine is a temporary fix (anti-cholinergic) and pralidoxime allows regeneration of AChesterase to some degree so your body can naturally remove it. It's a little bit of a juggling act, and needs monitoring for levels. Most (civilian) MDs see something like this with pesticide spray (farmer inadvertently sticks his hand in liquid "nerve gas" organophosphate bug spray, etc.) not chemical attacks, but we all get training in this (standard emergen
        • The problems with the movie is the auto injetors are normally injected IM into the v. Lateralis, 2 at 2 mg atropine each (and I did mean 2.0 not 0.2 mg) if the victim is symptomatic and the second problem is most military nerve agnets have a biological half-life of about two weeks (atropine is what about 6 hour?) and you can absorb LD-50 in about 18 seconds so your pretty shit-outa-luck with out a chem suit and protective mask. Also the agent like VX would persist in that enviroment for about a year.

      • Re:Combined, yes. But not new. (Score:4, Funny)

        by dirtsurfer (595452) on Friday November 30 2007, @02:34AM (#21529535) Journal
        Hey man, you want a hit of this? This stuff'll melt the testicles off a monkey
      • you stick them in a monkey and his testicles melt or his hair falls out.

        Pvt Snuffy " Sarge look at me, I sat down on that nerve agent antidote injecter and acccidently stuck myself in the ass; now my hair is falling out and my testicles are melting!"

        Sgt Rock "I don't know what you bitching about there Soldier, if the Government wanted you to have a pair, they'd have issued them to you, and that hair shit is purely cosmetic, you wannna look good for the enemy or something, I hear they like pretty boys if

          • OBTW the OSHA and Army reg's require an annual testing respirators (Gas Masks) with an "irritant smoke" the civs use an smoke, but the Army uses CS, but there is no requirement to remove the mask in an irritating environment, other than a slightly sadistic tradition. I was in the NG and one year we were scheduled to use the gas-shack at Fort Custer, I had everything set up ready to go and was waiting for some troops, when the Marines began to arrive. I told the Marine Reserves NBC NCO, that we were schedule
      • They also misrepresent the downsides of atropine use.

        Basically organophosphates (including certain pesticides and all current generations of nerve gasses) work by disabling cholinesterase. When this enzyme is disabled, Ach builds up in nerve endings and never stops, hence the nerve essentially loses its off-switch. Eventually the muscles whcih support breathing seize up and/or paralyze from overstimulation, and the subject dies.

        Atropine works by binding to the same receptors as ACH without activating them

    • I don't know the history, but in 1987(and certainly earlier) the US military had this for the 'troops'. It was in 2 injectors, not one.

      Now it's in one. That's what's new.

  • So, will this work on participants in the OS Flame Wars? They seem to be acting like they were hit with nerve gas over at "Leopard As The New Vista [slashdot.org] right now. Maybe they just need some tranquilizers.

  • better explanation (Score:4, Informative)

    by wizardforce (1005805) on Friday November 30 2007, @12:50AM (#21528961) Journal
    Pralidoxime has been used with Atropine for a long time it seems, Atropine lessening the effects of acetylcholine its self and Pralidoxime is sacrificed to reactivate acetylcholine esterase [which helps remove acetylcholine after it is done with its job]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pralidoxime [wikipedia.org]

  • Blah, blah, blah... (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Yeah. I saw this in that "Rock" movie about a bazillion years ago where Sean Connery pretended he wasn't British and Nick Cage pretended he could act.

  • Excuse to piss in public (Score:3, Interesting)

    by YU5333021 (1093141) on Friday November 30 2007, @01:32AM (#21529189) Homepage
    I'm being serious here... In the case that I ever end up in a public space where it becomes obvious that a nerve gas has been released, (and there is no clear way of getting out ie. subway system, sports venue...) I would take off one of my socks and piss on it.

    ???????

    This was commonly done in WWI during nerve gas attacks. With lack of gas masks, the best way to protect yourself was to breathe through a cloth soaked in ammonia. Piss being the easiest source of it.

    The modern gases may be way more advanced than what was used in early 20th century, so my approach may come across as dumb, but if they find my dead body sucking on a piss stained sock, I won't care much. I'll be dead.

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by Hunter-Killer (144296)
      Many nerve agents are absorbed through the skin, though getting a lungful won't do you any favors either. In the event of aerial disbursement, you'd have better chances with a poncho, rain coat, or even wearing a garbage bag. Unfortunately for you, in the event people are still able to move (and react), you would likely be knocked over and trampled in the resulting panic while trying to get your sock off.

    • Re:Excuse to piss in public (Score:4, Interesting)

      by ArcherB (796902) * on Friday November 30 2007, @01:45AM (#21529243) Journal
      I'm being serious here... In the case that I ever end up in a public space where it becomes obvious that a nerve gas has been released, (and there is no clear way of getting out ie. subway system, sports venue...) I would take off one of my socks and piss on it.

      If you really worried about it, you could just carry around a water filter. They make small ones for sports bottles, although, I don't know how easy they are to breathe through. Either way, they seem to have the same stuff in them as modern gas masks. It may work in a pinch and no one runs over your ass while you are standing there DIH, too panicked to piss on a sock.

        • Why? Are you hoping to persuade him to cancel Bionic Woman or Journeyman before you die, so you can feel that at least you left the world a better place? Or is this retribution for whoever allowed Dane Cook to host two episodes of Saturday Night Live?

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by wizardforce (1005805)
      ammonia was "effective" for preventing poisoning from previous gas attacks because a lot of these gases were acidic/electrophillic. Phosgene in particular would hydrolyze to CO2 and hydrochloric acid in your lungs thus causing you to drown in your own lung fluids. Ammonia is a base thus neutralizing a lot of the hydrochloric acid produced. Urine contains a number of nitrogeneous compounds one of which is Urea which hydrolyzes into Ammonia and CO2.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Khyber (864651)
      Ammonia. One ppm you smell it. two ppm you're dead.

      I'll take my chances with the nerve gas.

      • Ammonia. One ppm you smell it. two ppm you're dead.

        I'll take my chances with the nerve gas.
        I'm sure this isn't the whole story. Perhaps this assumes several hours of exposure? A friend of mine cleans his floors with ammonia, and it's overpowering. I'm reasonably sure that the quantity in the air is well over twice the minimum that would be necessary for me to smell it. But his family is alive and healthy. This can't be true, or my friend would be dead.
        • Well, if he's on his hands and knees LONG enough, he might get AmmoKnesia...

          Hopefully, he's not scrubbing floors in an adult male porn studio... He might WISH he could get amnesia from ammonia...

          (Coffee commercials of the 70s come, umm arrive to mind:

          Maxwell house... Good to the last drop

          Mountain Grown Folgers

          Fill it to the rim... with Brim...

          And... Ball Park Franks... the PLUMP when you cook'em.. BOOM BOOOM BOOOOM...)
      • You've obviously never been around a farm where ammonia tanks are kept. Hell, I probably fart more than 2ppm! A quick google check gives exposure limits of 25-300ppm depending on regulation authority and exposure type, and the LC50 for a mouse was over 5000ppm@1 hour!

        I know a grizzled old farmer who could take a deep breath of fresh air, and without a mask or goggles, shut off a valve when some meth-head broke in and left one open. He'd done it multiple times. Granted, the guy is a complete badass, but stil
        • Things that will kill in 100 mgs or less. (VX, GB etc, now being safely disposed of).



          I think you mean 100 ug, not mg. A substance that you need milligrams of in order to kill a human (e.g. potassium cyanide) is "relatively non-toxic" when compared to nerve agents.

        • (VX, GB etc, now being safely disposed of).

          Today, they're actually taking _some_ effort in disposing of the stuff. I recall that a while ago, the procedure to dispose of VX was "fill old ship with VX munitions and sink it in the middle of the Atlantic ocean".

        • How about a pharm with atropine, steroids AND phosgene??? Hell, you could save yourself from growing hair excessively, from pharting 12ppm, but get to drown...

          (Anyone still using phosgene in refrigeration plants? We did aboard ship in '85...)

    • Re:Excuse to piss in public (Score:5, Informative)

      by bagsc (254194) on Friday November 30 2007, @05:18AM (#21530279) Journal
      Piss won't help with any nerve agent. That tactic was partly effective against chlorine gas, which is soluble in water, so any water soaked rag will partly protect you. I say 'partly,' because even if your lungs and mucous membranes in the mouth and nose were protected in low concentrations of the gas, your eyes and skin are not. If it's a high concentration, you can see and smell it coming, so you get a chance to run. Of course, if you're stuck in a high concentration of chlorine gas, you're pretty much boned.

      Oh, and the ammonia neutralizing chlorine is also not true.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_gas_in_World_War_I [wikipedia.org]
    • In the case that I ever end up in a public space where it becomes obvious that a nerve gas has been released, (and there is no clear way of getting out ie. subway system, sports venue...) I would take off one of my socks and piss on it.

      In between the time of realising and building my 'filter' I would probably already have used up my supply. Ooops...
    • I'm being serious here... In the case that I ever end up in a public space where it becomes obvious that a nerve gas has been released, (and there is no clear way of getting out ie. subway system, sports venue...) I would take off one of my socks and piss on it.

      Nice gesture, but completely futile.

      This was commonly done in WWI during nerve gas attacks.

      No nerve gasses were used in WWI. Mustard, phosgen, chlorine, etc. aren't nerve gasses.

      With lack of gas masks, the best way to protect yourself was to breath

    • Modern nerve agents are absorbed through the skin in lethal amounts. Holding your breath, wearing a respirator, or sucking through a piss-drenched sock is not going to help you. Try to get away from the nerve agent, get outside, and hope there wasn't a lot of it.

  • Nothing new here (Score:3, Informative)

    by mysterious_mark (577643) on Friday November 30 2007, @03:09AM (#21529693)
    The US Military has been using Atropine auto injectors since the 70's, but there's no requirement for FDA approval. There's also a auto injector of Pam-2 chloride to be used to neutralize the toxicity of the Atropine. The Atropine and Pam-2 chloride injectors are issued in a box of two each that each soldier/sailor/marine carries when at 'MOPP' level anticipating a chemical attack or training for such. Anyone whose been through basic training or who has trained with a combat related unit probably has fond memories of long hours spent in MOPP suites, gas masks, and practice with the fake injectors for training. The only difference I see with this new antidote is that's its FDA approved for civilian use. Mark
    • Speaking as a doctor I will point out the difference for you.

      if we're talking about oximes - we're talking about carbamate/organophospate poisoning. These chemicals interact with an enzyme called acetyl cholinesterase, present in the synapses of nerves. As you probably know/remember, acetyl choline is a key neurotransmitter in the brain and the parasympathetic nervous system, as well as the terminal motor connection. When these poisons are applied, they reversibly (carbamates) or irrev
      • correction (for not proofreading), last line of first paragraph - the poisons bind to acetyl cholinesterase, not acetyl choline. Sorry, it was a typo.

        • If these lands are so valuable as religious resources, then every single occupier of that land would have had to keep the surrounding countries at bay for the entire occupation. Since that is clearly not the case, given the long periods of relative peace prior WWI, I don't see how having "key cities" is in any way apropos to the conversation unless you are also arguing that Israel is in some way preventing foreign pilgrims from accessing these monuments.

          Israel has been conquered 34 times last count because

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Entropius (188861)
            The whole thing is a wonderful ball of insanity, as everybody thinks that their own interpretation of the Invisible Friend in the Sky wants them to occupy some particular patch of dirt.

            If anyone's technically to blame for the problems in the Middle East, it's the Jews -- the ancient Jews, who were the first to invent the eternally-PMS'ing, cranky, smite-happy, horse-blinders-distributing warmongering Jehovah.

            The world would be a much more peaceful place if the three Abrahamic religions vanished tomorrow.

            • It's not about religion or about not forgetting the past. It really isn't. There is an ongoing situation that remains today. We have now a whole generation of displaced people who grew up in refugee camps. The palestinian people are embargoed with all entrances and exits controlled by Israeli forces. Their government ministers can't even visit another country without Israel's permission and trade and supplies have been blocked as a means of punishing the Palestinian people. When the Palestinian people elec
              • The Palestinians left at the urging of their "Arab Brothers" and when they did their "Brothers" stuck them in the refugee camps permantly for the PR value that sticking them in camps and blaming Isreal woulkd have. They could have became Isreali citizens way back when, and if they did instead of leaving, Isreal would be voting on makeing Islam the official religion today!
              • Now what in all that depends on religious differences or past wrongs?

                The fact that Israel had to be founded where it is. If the Jewish people wanted a homeland, there are plenty of places that aren't already occupied by crazies, but it *had* to be Jerusalem/Israel because of the religious implications. Note the name of the movement: they're not "Jewish nationalists", they're "Zionists", since it's important to have not just *any* homeland but to have *Zion*. We could have given them West Texas, for instance
            • Parent post gets modded 'insightful' instead of 'flamebait' or at the very least 'offtopic'? What's it got to do with nerve gas treatments?
              • Not every post has to be a reply to the original article.

                Some posts can be replies to other posts. This is why we have this nifty "threaded" comment model, where posts can be replies to each other.

                Neat, huh?
                • Well, I'd spotted that, thanks all the same for the sarcasm.

                  Not sure how that works with the 'offtopic' mod then?

                  I'm neither Jewish, nor pro or anti Jewish, by the way.

                  Just thought that this was a tech board primarily, not a soapbox for loonies.

                  (Althought I do love the humour!)
        • Sigh.

          The phrase isn't misused. In the absence of the rhetorical term called "begging the question," the words in the phrase "begs the question" are, in fact, equivalent to "raises [or asks for] the question."

          It really has dual meaning: the meaning of the words themselves and the historical usage of the phrase in rhetorical circles.

          Consider also, the phrase, "You're a dick." It could mean that the speaker is implying you're a member of the fraternity of people named, "Richard." It could also be a slang fi

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