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China Launches First Moon Orbiter
Posted by
CmdrTaco
on Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:00 AM
from the do-chinese-robots-need-tang dept.
from the do-chinese-robots-need-tang dept.
hey0you0guy writes "China has launched its first lunar orbiter, on a planned year-long exploration mission to the Moon. Analysts say it is a key step towards China's aim of putting a man on the Moon by 2020, in the latest stage of an Asian space race with Japan and India. Earlier this month, a Japanese lunar probe entered orbit around the Moon. India is planning a lunar mission for April next year."
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Space Superiority (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Space Superiority (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re:Space Superiority (Score:5, Insightful)
I was discussing this with an engineer friend. Let's say we wanted to get back into the race? Simple enough, you just dust off the plans for the Saturn V, setup the tooling, and...
Oh, shit... Not only don't we have the tooling, but we don't even have enough kids trained in running a drafting pencil to design the tooling. WE WOULD HAVE TO OUTSOURCE THE DESIGN AND FABRICATION TO --- Yup. Asia.
The only way Americans are going to get out into the wide-universe is as Contract Labor.
Some would consider it a national security issue, some would say it involves the long-term survival of humanity.
Whatever, combined with space-based solar/beamed microwave, there's a solution to 2 problems with one project. Build the orbital satellite factory and you have the infrastructure to get anywhere.
Dicking around with the ISS ain't the way to do it, folks. Don't send astronauts, send mechanical engineers, laborers, and parts.
Parent
Re:Space Superiority (Score:5, Informative)
Check out Project Constellation [wikipedia.org].
Compared to NASA's aborted shuttle replacements, this project is pretty low-risk and has a high likelihood of success.
Sending an unmanned probe around the moon is cool, and I'm happy to see Asia exploring space... but it is a far cry from sending men there.
Parent
Re:Space Superiority (Score:5, Insightful)
The problem isn't so much Asia sending probes to the moon (or even men, for that matter), it's that these countries have demonstrated a willingness and ability to pour a significant chunk of their national consciousness to science and engineering, and we do not. This doesn't just apply to the space race, but also everything else we research. My brother is working on his Ph.D in evolutionary biology, and he elected to stay in Canada for his schooling, despite originally intending to go to the US. Why? Because many of the top researchers in his field have been lured away to other countries in recent years (including Canada), mostly owing to the fact that the Bush administration has been sabotaging the funding to their particular field of research (I wonder why?).
I myself am in engineering and I can see this effect also. I have had the pleasure to study under, and work with, many exceptionally skilled engineers, and while it once was the holy grail to teach and work in the USA, I find that most of my professors no longer have that wish, and in fact many adamantly stay out of the US. Many of them are Muslim, go figure.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, I say to hell with people on the moon! Instead I think it would be much better to create a manned space station orbiting the moon instead, and use it as a "shipyard" and
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
People would be extremely naive to think that we have come so far but somehow lost the ability to do what we did 40+ years ago. No great knowledge was lost. No ability to produce the materials were lost. Public interest in the space race is what was lost.
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at NASA, would a new system really be designed with pencil/paper drafting? Is your friend
also unaware of the advances in CAD in the last 40 years? It seems to me that CAD is a lot
more practical as it can integrate with [astro|aero]dynamics testing software and such.
Hmmm. (Score:3, Informative)
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China? Yawn...
Re:Space Superiority (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm not sure you can draw a connection between us not going back to the moon in 30 plus years and saying thats a sign of our slipping in the technology race. Since the space race Russia and the US have kept people in orbit for months and in one case 748 days. The US has sent some pretty advanced probes to MARS and beyond. Saturn Comets the Sun, some great telescopes the list goes on. We are doing some advanced stuff To tweek the quote by JFK: We chose to go to the moon now we are doing those other things becuase they are hard.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Space Superiority??? (Score:3, Informative)
Gee what about this Lunar orbiter? http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/lunar/lunarorb.html [nasa.gov]
Take a look at the date.
Yea it was 40 years ago.
Your right it isn't like the US has done anything recently. Like say a mission to the asteroid belt http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=2007-043A [nasa.gov]
Or a fly by of Mercury http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/database/MasterCatalog?sc=2004-030A [nasa.gov]
Or a mission to Pluto...
But what about the moon?
Well there was at least two missions to the moon in the 1990s Clementine
Re: (Score:2)
No we are not. (Score:4, Insightful)
The US has plans to go back to the moon but support for the "current" Adminstration doing it is not high. We finally have seen the Shuttle given a real end of life which honestly, to me at least, was holding back the whole manned project in the first place. KISS.
Yeah there is a danger we could lose our superiority, but now that we have challengers that is less likely.
Parent
define "technology" (Score:3, Informative)
Furthermore, you're overlooking
Re: (Score:2)
The USSR could not, in the end, compete with the US in the space race because their economy could not support it.
Currently, we're still the leader, but the technology gap is shrinking -- a lot of this is due to where we choose to focus our resources, but how long until, like the USSR, we don't have the economy to compete? How many decades is the US from being in the same unenviable position?
That makes NO sense (Score:3, Insightful)
How does China planning to do something FIFTY YEARS after we did it show we're slipping on the technology front?
You may be right, but I don't see this as demonstrating what you claim at all.
Re:That makes NO sense (Score:5, Insightful)
Well, if you could do something 40 or 50 years ago, and you can't do it now, that, by definition is slipping. Meaning, you've fallen behind where you used to be relative to everyone else (or, even yourselves at the time).
The fact that America simply could not launch something today, this week, this month, this year, or quite possibly within the next three years which would get them to the moon means that -- at this precise moment -- you are behind China and Japan in terms of actually possessing the technology. Someone else has technology which you only theoretically possess. But, they've got one that's actually working, and either in orbit or in transit to orbit around the moon. You have 50 year old designs that haven't been revisited since, and that nobody has any working experience with the manufacture of. I own a physics textbook, but that doesn't mean I have any technology -- it means I have the theory.
If something were designed and ready to be built, does the US currently have the manufacturing capacity to make all of the components? Can all of the circuitry and stuff like that be made in country? Or would you have to farm it out to China and other countries where all of this stuff is currently built? If any components in the chain would need to be farmed out, you simply don't have the capacity to make it. And, either due to cost or lack of capacity, you'll note that most consumer electronics aren't actually made in the US.
Unfortunately, over the last few decades, so much American industrial fabrication has been moved out to cheaper locales, there's little left. The companies and systems which used to support the space program are now focusing on other things, or gone completely. Sure, Boeing can probably still do neat things, but you have neither the political will nor the money to make it happen right now. And, it would take time to ramp up and achieve this.
Not continuing to advance when everyone else is catching up and possibly passing you is slipping. China has a huge internal manufacturing capability, a tremendous workforce they can leverage, and whole truckload of foreign currency to buy what they need. That, and they can jujst steam roll over their people to achieve their goals once they set their sights on it.
As Lev said in Armageddon --- "Russian Components, American Components
What you did 50 years ago isn't indicative of what you could pull off today; which, I fear, would be way less than you did back then. That, unfortunately, is why it seems that the US is slipping in this field.
Cheers
Parent
Re:Space Superiority (Score:4, Insightful)
Meanwhile, the US launched another Mars lander in August and a mission to the asteroids Ceres and Vesta in September.
Parent
All empires come and go... (Score:2)
Don't get too upset, accept that this will happen, and spend some time ensuring that the current minor powers who may influence authority over you in years to come will look upon you fondly when they are in the ascendency. I think that would be a valuable lesson to learn from other c
Re:Space Superiority (Score:5, Insightful)
All I'm saying is that we in America could be enjoying richer lives due to technological advances instead of economic decline. Education, Research, and service. That's the next step from industrial progress. We are unfortunately, thanks in part to unions, stuck in the oil that's keeping us from progressing beyond making cars with manual labor.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That would be fascinating if it were true. First of all, we do not have any He3 fusion reactors, especially not on the scale that commercial power generation requires. Second, to supply the US with its power needs would require 15-20 tonnes of He3 per year. To power the world, you'd need, say, 100 tonnes per year (note: this is just electrical power, not fuel in general. You'd still need gas for cars, diesel fuel fo
The "Space Race" (Score:5, Interesting)
"But Pojut, there are so many issues down here already! Hunger, Homeless, Terrorism, Etc.!"
And a lot of those problems would go away if we stopped acting like little children (our club is better than your club), united our efforts internationally, put some real money towards it, and actually went out and learned things.
We will all either explore space together and get off this tiny planet, or we will all kill each other and our species will die out. I don't know about you, but I know which one I would prefer.
Re:The "Space Race" (Score:5, Insightful)
Did you ever think that even if you were willing to "go along with the game plan" that there are plenty of others who'd rather stab you in the back?
It's nice to think that you can throw down your guns and bombs and a great age of reason would swiftly follow but the much more likely scenario is that someone would just hide this gun behind their back and put a bullet in your head while you were working towards some other goal and simply take what was once yours.
We're living in a world where groups of people are willing to kill other people over a god damn cartoon! That should be a sure sign that we're not ready for the Utopian world that was sold to us in Star Trek.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
I'm aware that humanity as it stands now is in no position to unite and work together, but the longer we travel down the road we are on now, the more backtracking we will have to do.
The sad thing is we have the resources, intelligence, and DRIVE to do these things...we are just using them all in a useless way that leads to one ending: our extinction.
Just because it might not happen in our lifetimes does not me
Re: (Score:2)
And we do have the resources and the intelligence but we certainly don't have the drive. When it comes down to it Mr and Mrs Sixpack are still paying the bills on these types of things and, contrary to what some around here think, there are ears in Washington that do listen. If we can ever get the masses to see the virtue in scientific spending we will develop quickly but in the mea
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
So why don't we just pack up, move to Mars, and start our utopia there? After all, that's what the Pilgrams did when they hopped into the Mayflower. ;)
Re:The "Space Race" (Score:4, Funny)
(And by "here" I mean planet Earth.)
Parent
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Why are you so hell bent on getting "off this rock"? We are designed by nature to live here, we fit here. Why do you think it's such an amazi
Re:The "Space Race" (Score:4, Insightful)
I like your sentiment. However, you seem to be discounting or simply forgetting the value of competition. It may seem counterintuitive but sometimes divided pools of resources put towards achieving the same goal can achieve better results than a single effort.
Often you'll have different ideas on how to solve a problem. Sometimes you can't really be sure which way is the best way until you try and implement both. Pick the successful one. The challenge is to be sure that "success" isn't due to outside influence (politics, marketing, etc.) but on purely performance issues.
On a larger scale, the challenge to competing ideas is the bureaucracy. The larger the pool of resources and individuals involved, the greater the organization and mechanism to manage said resources and individuals. These environments tend to become lumbering, unwieldy things that require a lot of resources to simply run while stifling competition and innovation.
A project at the scale of space exploration probably leads to some manner of bureaucracy. However, I'm more inclined to have smaller, battling bureaucracies rather than a single massive one... or at least the often difficult process of trying to make multiple massive bureaucracies work together.
Parent
Re: (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
See one of my sites.
No, they're not about "bringing down the government", but they ARE about putting out of business a bunch of activities that nee
Want space? Start learning Chinese! (Score:5, Funny)
Nie hao ma? (How are you?)
Wo hun hao. (I'm fine.)
Ke bu ke yi wo qui nie de huo jian? (May I go in your rocket?)
Re:Want space? Start learning Chinese! (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Bu ke yi.
Wo men mei xu yao mei guo ren. Wo men zuo so you de ni men de dong xi.
All your moon base (Score:3, Funny)
China Changing (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
They Bought into the Rumor (Score:2)
Hughes beat them to it (Score:2)
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E7D7143EF933A05757C0A96E958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print [nytimes.com]
Kind of cool how they saved a satellite by sending it to the moon. Or if you don't want to count it as Hughes, count it as a Russia-US-Kazakhstan-Hong Kong moon orbiter. And in that sense, this is the second time China is sending an orbiter.
The more, the merrier. (Score:3, Interesting)
If others want a shot at it, I say go for it - at least someone is reaching upwards and towards getting humanity out of its cradle. More power to 'em if they can help establish a peaceful and vigorous plan in motion to reach that goal.
I was literally less than 24 hours old when Apollo 11 launched. I'd like to think that we'd have people living and working full-time on the Moon sometime before I die of old age...
Re: (Score:2)
I'd like to think that when people wish for something, that they were actually working on a solution, but I guess we'll both be dead by the time our thoughts come true.
Wishing and hoping is for marketing, engineers solve problems - except for the ones we create by "fixing" a working design.
Pissed away? Seriously: No. (Score:4, Insightful)
Nation's been asleep and nobody has done anything in all that time, huh?
Computers sure seem better than they were 35 years ago. I carry a phone in my pocket. Apartheid has ended in South Africa. Disco music has been successfully crushed, tainted as "no longer cool." Lead has been vanquished from our gasoline, resulting in the virtual elimination of all crime. Wal-Mart distribution has efficiency that people couldn't even dream about 35 years ago. And last, but not least, The breakfast burrito has been perfected. [msn.com]
We didn't piss away the years; we just didn't use the years the way you want. Technology (and more generally: the inventive capabilities of the human spirit) carried on, its passion at odds with an uncaring universe. It developed what it wanted to, solved problems that it thought needed solving.
And now we have the most literally awesome breakfast burrito mankind has ever seen. I'm sure those who enjoy the fruits of that burrito research and development (yeah, like any of them actually eat fruit, when such a lusciously filling burrito is around), had the resources been spent on continuing the Apollo program continued instead, would say,
Think about it. Life is what you make it, and we made something. You just don't like it.
So go ahead, eat your fruit and drink your Tang, and live in willful ignorance of (and spite for) Hardee's groundbreaking Country Breakfast Burrito. Daydream of a renewed Apollo program. Meanwhile, the Prime Movers of human progress -- the people who make the world turn! -- will continue to work on what they think is important. Is the Monster ThickBurger really the upper end of burger thickness? Is there a barrier that cannot be crossed? The intrepid human spirit screams, "No! There are no limits! With passion and ingenuity, anything is possible!"
Parent
Objective pictures! (Score:4, Funny)
The Sport Of Great Civilizations (Score:2)
In itself, space exploration is a good thing. But I don't think any of it would be happening without some national/political interest
Delusional (Score:4, Insightful)
Except that such an 'aim' is a creation mostly of the analysts themselves, China has made no goals or national policy statements. This so called 'moon race' is a creation of pundits looking to justify their paychecks.
Re: (Score:2)
Not only that, China and Russia both had the technology to verify that the USA went to the moon in the late 60's. If you believe the fake moon landing conspiracy wackos, China and Russia knew we faked a moon landing, yet didn't use that for propaganda during the cold war.
Unless that was the plan, they didn't tell on us in exchange for us not telling on them almost 40 years later. It all makes sens