Does Computer Use Actually Cause Carpal Tunnel?

BoldAC writes "A geek physician has reviewed the medical literature that explores if a relationship exists between computer use and carpal tunnel syndrome. 'Typing at the keyboard or using the mouse for hours and hours upon end just seems like it has to be horrible for your joints, right?' His conclusions certainly seem to contradict the thinking of many: 'The current research shows that computer use has very little role in causing carpal tunnel syndrome.' It even seems that both Harvard and the Journal of the American Medical Association agree with his conclusions."

Emacs Pinky

[quickbasicguru (886035)]

Does this mean Emacs Pinky is just evil VI propaganda?

Indeed

[paranode (671698)]

I call upon them to Ctrl-Shift-Underscore everything they have said about Emacs!

Re:

[damaki (997243)]

Disclaimer: it's no troll, it really happened to me.
I had this achy pinky because of emacs... All those Ctrl key sequences had a really negative impact on my left pinky. And, when I switched to vi, it disapeared. It's probably because most sequences use both hands on vi.
When I had to use Eclipse for some java project, I started to alternate between the both control keys and to push the left one, not with the tip of the finger but with the joint. I had no problem so far for years.

Re:

[ptbarnett (159784)]

I had this achy pinky because of emacs... All those Ctrl key sequences had a really negative impact on my left pinky. And, when I switched to vi, it disapeared. It's probably because most sequences use both hands on vi.

I had the same problem, but it affected the entire left side of my left hand.

However, it occurred after I switched from an NCD X-term to a PC running Windows and Reflection X. The typical position for the control key on a PC keyboard requires me to twist my entire hand to press it.

I j

Re:

[roguetrick (1147853)]

From most standings, bloggers are to journalists as chiropractors are to doctors.

Re:Emacs Pinky

[snowgirl (978879)]

No, because Grammar Nazis nitpick over insignificant details that do not actually apply to the actual grammar of the language. Few people really screw up grammar, but rather, they fail to uphold the arbitrary rules emplaced upon the formal language that Grammar Nazis nitpick upon.

"I ain't got no money" is actually entirely grammatical (from a linguistics point of view), however it fails to meet the standards of formal language that Grammar Nazis prefer.

Interestingly, it could be related to Plato's Allegory of the cave. Grammar Nazis actually understand grammar little better than the average native speaker, simply they are dogmatically bound to believe that the shadows are reality, and that the arbitrary rules they have established to explain grammar are what grammar is really about.

Those who have gotten out of the cave, and see the reality of grammar, and the entire flexibility thereof, understand better than any Grammar Nazi why the above phrase was actually grammatical. And when they would attempt to explain why it is actually grammatical (it's SVO order, it's negated, and has appropriate concordation with the negation.) the Grammar Nazi looks at his cave wall and says that those reasons don't exist, because "ain't" isn't a word, and a "double negative" would logically make a positive.

Grammar Nazis are to grammar as Chiropraters are to medicine, because neither actually really practice the science described. Rather they study fringe elements related to that science, and believe their positions to be equally valid as the actual science itself.

er

[by Anonymous Coward]

I'd post a longer reply, but my hands hurt.

Duh

[192939495969798999 (58312)]

Everyone knows carpal tunnel is caused only by typing done whilst visiting adult sites, which explains why so many of you perverts have it!

Re:

[ubrgeek (679399)]

Playboy.com ... the sound of one hand typing.

PORN

[Major Blud (789630)]

Baloney, of course computer use causes carpal tunnel....well, certain types of computer use anyways....

Re:PORN

[nilesh_tms (680889)]

I hate to keep copying/pasting the same thing here, but this might actually help someone. Check out the following as it may help you:

I cured what I thought was "RSI" using this "mindbody" approach:
http://www.rsi.deas.harvard.edu/handout.doc [harvard.edu]
(Coincidental that Harvard is hosting this document, maybe the researchers should look at it themselves)

Here is the Google cache [216.239.51.104] for those who don't want to open a .doc.

I suffered for 1.5 years (where I didn't work because I didn't think I could) before I found that my cure was a completely psychological approach. From my research of CTS (as well as what my doctor told me), it is completely unrelated to typing. And from my experience with "RSI" and understanding what it actually was, I no longer believe you can actually hurt yourself from typing too much.

I now type sometimes all day long without taking many breaks. I play guitar, bass, and drums. I don't worry about posture at all. Ergonomics are only a way for me to get comfortable, not to avoid injury. I have no pain at all, and don't worry about ever having "RSI" again. It's been 5 years since I cured myself.

Please read up on the approach I'm talking about here before you flame me. It actually makes sense once you put all the pieces together. You can also search for "sarno tms" to find more info.

Read the book "The Mindbody Prescription" by John E. Sarno if you can, its really the best source for an explanation of this.

Re:PORN

[nuzak (959558)]

> It's actually kinda sad that I'm getting modded down.

I was about to mention how your tone and your, ah, overenthusiasm might have been part of it. But I took a look at your user profile, and it looks like your only purpose here is to shill for your pet quack. FOAD, nobody owes you a civil reply.

Re:PORN

[sumdumass (711423)]

Back in 1998, A girl I ran around with developed carpel tunnel. The company she worked for (as a data entry clerk) denied it was possible to get carpel tunnel from using computers. They were self insured and at the time it was legit to only allow her to goto the company paid doctors. Of course they backed them up.

The problem is that if data entry, or general computer use can be attributed to carpel tunnel, then there is a lot of liability large companies would be responsible for. It wouldn't surprise me if this isn't one of those "paid for results" studies. I have no proof in saying it is, I'm not saying that it is, just that I wouldn't be surprised to find out it was. There is big money in work related injuries and disproving them. A company that could get lower rates and not have to payout for something directly related to the job would save a bundle if they didn't have to worry about it.

As for my friend, her job and working 12-15 hours a day 4 days straight with 2 days off in between was the only repetitive work she did that was associated with carpel tunnel. When going to her family doctor, he was convinced it was the computer work. He eventually put her on working restrictions of 8 hour days, the pain and problems were relieved to some degree and she was eventually fired and had to find a new job. This actually worked out in her benifit because the job she found after that paid almost twice as much, had reasonable hours and the company paid "employee insurance program" took care of the carpel tunnel 8 months later. As far as I know, she hasn't had issues with it ever since and does more in her off time then even when she had the old job.

I think there is a reason they call carpel tunnel a repetitive stress injury. Maybe the article is correct in that if certain limits are in place, there is no correlation. But I doubt that outside those settings it could be true. People like you and my friend sort of show it to be otherwise. I think going from 12-15 hour days to 8 hour days with regular breaks helped her a lot. But she still needed to have something sniped to end everything.

Re: keyboard ergonomics

[adminstring (608310)]

I find that my wrists start to hurt if I put the feet on the back of the keyboard up - it forces my wrists to bend backwards, which they don't like to do. My piano teachers always stressed keeping the forearms up and letting the fingers curl down naturally; if I do something like that at the computer keyboard, I find I don't have wrist pain.

I've suggested this to a number of coworkers, and it has reduced their wrist pain in most cases. Obviously your experience is different... people's bodies can vary

PORN

[BlowHole666 (1152399)]

It is because most computer users (geeks) do not have girlfriends. So they hurt their wrist looking at porn...well the wrist are busy doing other stuff.

I know of one action...

[guruevi (827432)]

It has to do with computers, the internet, geeks and a left or right hand to stimulate certain nerve endings... that's probably the cause of all that carpal tunnel excuse. Introduce more girls into the world that would accept people here at /. and we'll have the 'cure'

I have CTS

[earthloop (449575)]

I have CTS and am going for my op early next month to fix it. I'm 33 now and have used computers since the ZX81.

My GP insists that my CTS has nothing to do with my years of computer use, and that in fact it will be good post-op physio.

Still, I'm having one hand done at a time so that I can still manage one handed browsing. ;o)

Re:

[ajs (35943)]

My GP insists that my CTS has nothing to do with my years of computer use, and that in fact it will be good post-op physio.

This seems reasonable. I've always thought that it seemed odd that, of the dozens of geeks that I know of who type constantly, only a small fraction develop RSI or CTS, and yet we blame it on the typing. I think it's more reasonable to blame it on the fact that not all humans are well suited to typing.

Re:I have CTS

[snowgirl (978879)]

CTS is typically caused by being predisposed to it in the first place. At that point, using computers makes things a lot worse.

So, he's right, and you're kind of right. The CTS was not caused by your computer use, but your computer use certainly did aggrevate it.

PS. I was about to applaud you for being the first "non-porn" post until your last line. *sigh*

Re:

[soulsteal (104635)]

CTS is typically caused by being predisposed to it in the first place.

I agree whole-heartedly. It has always been my line of thinking that your chances of having Carpal Tunnel Syndrome are greatly increased by having Carpal Tunnels.

Bull-fucking-shit

[mechsoph (716782)]

Then how the hell did changing to an ergonomic keyboard and trackball stop the excruciating pain in my wrists that I experienced when using my old keyboard and mouse?

Technically speaking, I probably had tendinitis rather than carpal tunnel. Still, it's rather upsetting when you tell your doctor you have RSI and he doesn't have a clue what your talking about. God damn medical racket.

Re:Bull-fucking-shit

[snowgirl (978879)]

Then how the hell did changing to an ergonomic keyboard and trackball stop the excruciating pain in my wrists that I experienced when using my old keyboard and mouse?

Because you were naturally predisposed to an RSI, and and ergonomic keyboard makes things easier on your wrists once they have been inflammed by an RSI. An ergonomic keyboard is not necessary for all people, as not all people are predisposed to RSI, and that's why you have the code monkeys who sit at their computer for hours, and don't develop any RSI at all.

The only reason why CTS and RSIs appear to be more common in computer users is because we're more likely to aggrevate the situation. It's not that we have more CTS and RSIs, it's because the effect is significantly more pronounced.

Re:Bull-fucking-shit

[snowgirl (978879)]

And some people smoke till they're 90 and don't get cancer, yet there doesn't seem to be any confusion about what's causing what there.

Unlike smoking, where lung cancer susceptability is likely in the high 90's of precentile, CTS susceptability is very low. Most people will not get CTS no matter how much they use a computer, whereas most people will get lung cancer from smoking.

The difference is in the likelihood rate, even though both of them are fairly equally the same thing. (Triggering a susceptability.)

Re:

[ZombieWomble (893157)]

You do realise that "surveys" of this sort are really the only decent method for gathering data on ailments such as RSI which display such a low incidence rate and low correlation with workplace factors, yes? It's not like you can meaningfully do an "experiment" where you assign sufficiently large groups distinct jobs and computer usage time over a period of years to get rigorous results. And they did apply some slightly more rigorous tests to determine how many reported cases of RSI were indeed valid.

More

Re:

[NeutronCowboy (896098)]

Thank you. I can't believe how many people there are that point to a decrease in the diagnosis of RSI in the wrists as a sign that RSI is not triggered by computer use. This is completely missing the cause and effect relationship here. I can tell you that when many people joined the .com, a lot of them had very little experience about how to properly use keyboards and computers for extended periods of time (me included). End result? Lots of hurting wrists and fingers. I had to go to a doctor, get a wrist-gu

Re:

[mechsoph (716782)]

My only predisposition is girly-man wrists. So yeah, some people can use lousy keyboards and do just fine. But saying bad keyboards don't cause CTS/RSI is like saying smoking only causes cancer in people who are predisposed to it.

One more thing

[kidcharles (908072)]

Now if they can just definitively show that masturbation does not cause blindness, geeks will finally be able to live worry-free.

Re:

[zsouthboy (1136757)]

It causes rudeness in anonymous forums, you insensitive clod!

Stepmania

[aj50 (789101)]

Does the research mention if the results are different depending on whether the computer has stepmania [stepmania.com] installed?

I had carpal tunnel

[guinsu (198732)]

I had very bad symptoms through college, was even considering having an operation done. It got a little better after college, but I was still at a desk all day working as a programmer. then I got a nice desk and chair at home, and did the same thing at work. Now I never have problems even though I still type a lot and I also play guitar. I think posture and ergonomics have a lot to do with it, at least in the office world.

I agree

[FranTaylor (164577)]

I'm older than any of you guys and I spend way too much time in front of a computer (ask my wife!). My hands are just fine, thank you. I got rid of the mouse a long time ago; now I use a trackpad. I also take breaks to go to a window and look off at something on the horizon, it helps prevent the seemingly ubiquitous nearsightedness (literally, not figuratively) among geeks.

Re:

[Yath (6378)]

I also take breaks to go to a window and look off at something on the horizon, it helps prevent the seemingly ubiquitous nearsightedness (literally, not figuratively) among geeks.

This statement isn't supported by current scientific knowledge. Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myopia [wikipedia.org]
"Near work has been implicated as a contributing factor to myopia in some studies, but refuted in others."

Personally, I read voraciously, and have stared at a monitor 8+ hours per day for about 20 years. I have no nearsight

Bullshit

[metalhed77 (250273)]

This story is nothing new. What's really needed is a clarification of terms.

I have RSI (Repetitive Stress Injuries) and my carpal tunnel is just fine. It's the other nerves, tendons, and muscles of my hands which ache and cause the severe pain. If you try and explain this to people they just say 'Carpal Tunnel Syndrome' unless they're a doctor. Computer use DOES cause RSI which is the real problem, and a really painful and dangerous thing. Other tasks, sewing for instance, can also cause RSI. The phenomenon is not new.

How the carpal tunnel got so famous I don't know, but the term has stuck.

Re:Bullshit

[Chuckaluphagus (111487)]

Get physical therapy now.

I'm completely serious. I had the same problem as you, diagnosed as tendinitis in the backs of my hands, and it made typing at a keyboard all day extremely painful. Physical therapy for two months, twice a week helped immensely and I learned a number of exercises that I can do at my desk that eliminate the pain entirely, if not all of the tension. I'll have to do the exercises for the rest of my life (or stop using my hands for a few straight months and let them rest and heal finally), but they're ten minutes a day and not hard. Physical therapy may be expensive if you can't get it covered under your health insurance/worker's comp, but it's a cost you have to pay now in order to not be suffering for the rest of your life. It's absolutely worth it.

Plus, for any of you who have gone to a general practitioner who was entirely clueless about RSI, go see an orthopedic surgeon. That was my GP's recommendation and it was spot on. The surgeon knew exactly what sort of damage might have been caused, knew how to check whether it was muscle/tendon damage or nerve damage, and was the one who referred me to the physical therapist. Your GP isn't necessarily clueless, but he or she is a generalist. A specialist will (hopefully) have a lot better understanding of the specific problems and possible solutions that RSI entails.

Re:

[Chuckaluphagus (111487)]

One more thing: I was told by the orthopedic surgeon and by the physical therapist to not rely on wrist braces. Use them only when necessary (i.e. when you're starting to feel pain), wear them for an hour and then see whether you can make do without them again. Wear them at night to sleep, but only for the first month. It was explained that you can become reliant on them to enforce the correct positioning of your arms and wrists. Then you may not keep up with exercises as much as you should because, wit

Consumer Reports

[Itninja (937614)]

The latest issues of CR (I'm a subscriber) listed carpel tunnel as one of the most over-diagnosed health problems. Something about a for-profit healthcare industry....just sits weird with me. I wonder how many times it would be diagnosed at all if they couldn't get the insurance companies to pony up the dough.

Re:

[Itninja (937614)]

Whoa there. Who said anything about government? Non-profit doesn't mean government funded. They can not be profit driven and still be totally self-funded.

Depends on your position

[lymond01 (314120)]

As far as the aches and pains of computer use my experience is such:

1) 11 hours straight of Everquest - no pain from mouse or keyboard
2) 6 hours of Quake (back in the day) - no pain from mouse or keyboard
3) 20 minutes of mouse use at odd angle (but not so odd as to say other people wouldn't use a mouse like this) - back of hand starting hurting
4) Couple days of keyboard and mouse use on bad desk setup (keyboard high, forearms rest on edge of desk, etc) - shoulder and elbow pain.

I know what my body does and doesn't like. Relaxed shoulders, no reaching for the mouse, etc.

Re:

[urbanriot (924981)]

After a full day of computer work, followed by an evening of Steam or WoW, my mouse clicking wrist hurts with a very sharp pain to both my wrist and the ends of my fingers. If I stop gaming for a few weeks, this pain eventually goes away for a few months.

Is this carpel tunnel or RSI? Or something else?

As an aside, I didn't believe that these problems existed until my late 20's, when I started experiencing them after a lifetime of the same pattern of computer use.

My Owner Beats Me

[Riddler Sensei (979333)]

Oh Lordy, the number of posts so far NOT involving spankin' duh monkey can be counted on one hand. Which is GOOD because my other hand is entirely busy at the moment.

Driving

[fishbowl (7759)]

I'm reasonably convinced that poor posture and hand position while *driving* contributes more tho CTS and/or RSI than typing does.
I think it's a serious confounding variable, that most office workers have those two things in common: significant time spent driving a car, and typing on computer keyboards.

Re:

[RAMMS+EIN (578166)]

I get RSI symptoms from driving more than from typing, so I'll second that. But the factor I've found contributes most to RSI is _stress_. I can drive without problems for hours, and I can type at a keyboard all day in the wrongest postures, no problem at all. But the first few days on a new job I need to really take it slow, and if I put myself behind the wheel when worked up about something, my hands and whole upper body will hurt in a matter of minutes.

I really think stress is the real culprit. Unfortuna

Hush

[Kohath (38547)]

Hush. You're ruining it for the lawyers. How do you expect lawyers to cash in? People are in pain and the lawyers haven't fully exploited the moneymaking opportunity yet! Computer companies have deep, deep pockets, you know.

Wait until the companies have settled up and gone bankrupt. Then let it slip quietly that the whole thing wasn't true -- just like they did with the silicone gel breast-implant cases. Those were found to be harmless after the lawyers got paid.

My Personal Story

[curunir (98273)]

About 6 years ago, I had CTS. I had just about the worst posture, hand position and everything else you could possibly imagine. And, as a programmer who spends at least 40 hours a week in front of a computer, it was starting to catch up with me. However, around that time, a friend of mine invited me to come rock climbing with him. I liked it so much that I started going to a local gym around 2-3 times a week. And a funny thing started happening...my CTS started to go away. About 3 months into my climbing habit (yes...it's an addiction), I was free of CTS pains entirely. I still have just about the worst ergonomics you could imagine, yet I have zero pain.

What I believe is going on is that CTS/RSI pain is not caused by doing one thing too often or putting your body in one position too often. Instead, it's caused by not doing other things often enough or putting your body in other positions often enough. I don't have any proof of that except for my own personal experience and the experiences of others that I've told, but those seem to indicate that bad posture/ergonomics can be counteracted by regular exercise of the affected area.

Pregnancy is a disease?

[Fantastic Lad (198284)]

The studies being quoted in the article were published in 1991 and 1992. I don't know about the rest of the world, but I didn't even have an internet account until several years later. Heck, 'Doom' didn't even come out until 1993. How is this relevant? Well, until people started messing up their wrists on their own time as opposed to in the work place, there was plenty of incentive to make sure that the victim was blamed and that therefore no money would flow from corporate and insurance coffers to pay for medical bills.

Yeah, there are a couple of points in those fifteen year-old articles which are sort of interesting. --That if you have arthritis, then you may be at higher risk. (Duh. --Though such points are important to medical insurance companies; if you have a prior condition, then you aren't going to be covered for your injuries.)

In any case, I don't really see why articles published fifteen years ago when RMI's were still a relatively new and misunderstood concept are suddenly worth getting upset over. It might be that the editor isn't too swift. . .

"Classically the associated diseases are the following: rheumatoid arthritis, menopause, hypothyroidism, acromegaly, end-stage renal disease, pregnancy, and obesity. Even then the data is not clear that the repetitive use contributes any."

Menopause is a disease? Pregnancy is a disease? No. But ending a sentence with the word 'any' is evidence of poor journalistic skill.

Seriously, the original claim looks like science making the classic mistake; if the lab can't explain a phenomenon, then obviously the observers out there in the public are at fault. It's swamp gas or hysteria, (menopause?). Or indeed, maybe the money funding the studies came from corporations worried about having to pay out on medical claims. Who knows? What I do know is that if you use your hands in certain sitting-at-desk work for long enough without breaks, your wrists and joints start to hurt and your back and neck can get messed up, and the skin can even wear right off the parts of your hands rubbing against the desk / paper, etc. --I knew an animator who ruined her hands trying to meet a crazy deadline with a crazy amount of work and ended up smearing blood across her easel. She was unable to work for several months afterwards. But then I suppose we can just blame her chronic condition (being female) rather than repetitive motion stress for the injury.

What a silly article.

-FL

News just in

[fozzmeister (160968)]

Driving doesn't cause death... if your careful. Typing doesn't cause carpal tunnel, if your careful, amazing isn't it.

Anonymous Article = Insurance Company FUD

[mbstone (457308)]

The article isn't signed: it has as much scientific value as an Anonymous Coward post.

Funny how we can't check out the author to see if he (or she) is really a shill for the workers' comp insurance companies, not unlike the shills for Exxon who deny that the planet is getting warmer.

Ever been to a trial of a personal injury case? There are plenty of orthopedic physicians who will, for a buck, testify that Joe Plaintiff wasn't really crippled, or even hurt, in the accident that totalled his car.

The shill orthopedists live in great, big houses up on the hill.

Re:

[trolltalk.com (1108067)]

Moderate evidence was concluded for a positive association between the duration of mouse use and hand-arm symptoms." (from a related study, http://oem.bmj.com/cgi/content/abstract/64/4/211 [bmj.com] ) constitutes evidence for my pet theory that right-hand usage for 'right'-handed people is not appropriate, as it constrains the well trained hand two only simple movements (I am retraining 'lefthandedness' but did not change the keyboard/mouse layout for that reason, so there is at least single case evidence :)

You kn

Re:Not actually computer use that causes it...

[infonography (566403)]

... the real cause are the millions of pr0n sites users visit while using their PC.

Thats only true if one hand is effected as in one-hand-typing. If both hands have it then it means that user is actually doing real work. (unless they have blog which is another form of masturbation) See my blog for further details.

Re:Not actually computer use that causes it...

[pthisis (27352)]

I find that the CTS is actually worse in my dominant arm. I believe it is at least in part due to mouse use, because I find that when it flares up, it's far more painful to use a mouse than it is for me to type.

FWIW, I found that switching the mouse to the left hand for a month and then alternating every couple of weeks made all my arm pain go away. It takes a day or two to get used to using the mouse in the off-hand, but was well worth it for me.