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Scientists Deliver 'God' Via A Helmet

Posted by Zonk on Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:23 PM
from the don't-forget-the-devil-in-the-details dept.
prostoalex writes "Scientific American is reporting on scientific work done to map the euphoric religious feelings within the brain. As a result, it's now quite possible to experience 'proximity to God' via a special helmet: 'In a series of studies conducted over the past several decades, Persinger and his team have trained their device on the temporal lobes of hundreds of people. In doing so, the researchers induced in most of them the experience of a sensed presence — a feeling that someone (or a spirit) is in the room when no one, in fact, is — or of a profound state of cosmic bliss that reveals a universal truth. During the three-minute bursts of stimulation, the affected subjects translated this perception of the divine into their own cultural and religious language — terming it God, Buddha, a benevolent presence or the wonder of the universe.""
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  • by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:25PM (#20893881)
    First post.
  • Acid (Score:5, Informative)

    by 56 (527333) on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:25PM (#20893887)
    The effect described sounds like the euphoric feeling you sometimes get while on acid. Minus the hallucinations.
    • by EmbeddedJanitor (597831) on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:28PM (#20893903)
      Sensing something that is not there.... surely that classifes as hallucination
          • I think I'd rather go for the acid.

            Hey, Christianity is the belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie, who was his own father, can make you live forever if you eat his flesh. [pizdaus.com]

            What's not to like?

                • by lightsaber777 (920815) on Monday October 08 2007, @07:46AM (#20897351) Journal
                  Jesus was hardly a preacher of "tolerance", at least not the way you are using it. Jesus taught people to love, but that love very clearly did not mean acceptance of their lifestyle. For instance, the story of the woman caught in adultery is often used to show how "tolerant" Jesus was. But that story also includes a command to "sin no more". That the act was wrong was never in question. Jesus taught that there is right and wrong and that, if you love a person, you would want to help them out of their self-destructive lifestyles. In addition, the word tolerance indicates an acceptance of something that is otherwise hated. That you can tolerate something means that you "to endure without repugnance; put up with". There is a difference between love for a person because they are a person and acceptance of something that you despise.
                • by db32 (862117) on Monday October 08 2007, @09:30AM (#20898567) Journal
                  Given that you have not read the bible then you have no idea what he preached beyond what fundamentalists have told you.

                  But I don't think you need to. You have clearly demonstrated that you are too ignorant to be able to actually read the damned thing with any kind of social, historical, or other context beyond "aahahah naked guy on torture device" mentality.

                  So you are right, there is no need to read the bible to become an ignorant, loud mouthed jackass insulting someone elses beliefs. You would fight right in with the bible thumpers too, its not like they read much of it, they are just ignorant, loud mouthed jackasses insulting others beliefs. Right up your alley.
            • by Propaganda13 (312548) on Monday October 08 2007, @12:11AM (#20894245)

              Since Jesus apparently had other siblings, why do people still refer to his mother as virgin?
              Since Joe Jackson wore shoes, why do people still refer to him as Shoeless Joe Jackson? /sarcasm
            • Since Jesus apparently had other siblings, why do people still refer to his mother as virgin?

              Tradition has it that Joseph was an old widower with children before he and Mary got engaged. There's also the fact that Jews called their cousins "brothers". Nope, I can't prove that any of these things accurately explain what really happened (as that would be impossible), but it ought to wipe that "I've just stumped `em Bible-thumpin' Xtians with a scriptural contradiction"-smile off your face.

              On topic:

              Fact A: Religious practices sometimes produce certain psychological effects.
              Fact B: For a number of people, the only time they've encountered these certain psychological effects (if ever) was during religious rituals.
              Fact C: Scientists have successfully reproduced these certain psychological effects in the laboratory.

              Only the modern, enlightened, rationalist intellectuals of today could possibly connect all those facts and conclude that they have "delivered God". It would never occur to them that how we experience a God (if any exist) would necessarily be limited to what the moist computer in our skull can "experience" (i.e. a bunch of neurological signals), and that the explanation of this experience does NOT explain God/gods/fairies.

              Believing in God has made me feel good at times; it's also made me feel bad at times. Is it logical to believe in God just because it makes you warm and fuzzy inside? Is it logical to disbelieve in God just because you're life is "shit"? These questions are meaningless because they are merely sentimental. God exists or does not exist however we feel about Him.

              So now that we know that this scientific study has no religious or "spiritual" value whatsoever (unless your religion is that shallow), I'd like to express my utmost excitement for the future applications of these findings in the area of Virtual Reality entertainment: Realistic Uber-Creepy Horror Video Games FTW!!!

                • by BlueStraggler (765543) on Monday October 08 2007, @12:53PM (#20901307)

                  5) Virgin births are rampant throughout ancient mythology, and most sun gods underwent a virgin birth on December 25 (it being the traditionally accepted date when the days visibly begin to grow in length). Many also had 3 wise men follow a star in the east to see the birth. It was practically a requirement of godhood in an age when sun gods were generally considered the most important deities. If you didn't have the trappings of a sun god, you would not have been accepted by Roman society. (This also explains why the Christian sabbath is Sunday.)

                  Astrologically, the story is explained by the belt of Orion (the three wise men) pointing to Sirius (the brightest star in the sky) which was low in the eastern sky where the sun rose on the winter solstice, all of which occured under the sign of Virgo (the virgin).

                  Incidentally, the sun gods as a rule traveled the world with their 12 disciples, were then killed, placed into a cave for 3 days, and then resurrected, thereby saving humanity. Astrologically, this is just esoteric symbolism for the sun traversing the 12 signs of the Zodiac, finally losing the war against the forces of darkness on the Winter Solstice, remaining in this darkest mode for 3 days where the sun spent more time "under" the earth than over it, before being reborn again, initiating a new year and new crops, which were essential to the survival of humanity.

                  The most prevalent sun god during the Roman Empire was probably Mithras, who had Persian origins. The story of Mithras had all of these elements, but also borrowed them from earlier traditions. The oldest one we know of, and possibly the original, was the Egyptian god Horus [uwm.edu]. The sun-disk on Horus' head was adopted directly into Christian iconography [test-cornerstone.org], eventually evolving into the modern halo. Horus was called Iu-em-hetep, or Iusa in Egyptian, a name which evolved to Yeshua (Hebrew), then Iesu (Greek, who had to drop the trailing 'a' which would have implied the feminine), then Iesus (Latinate form of Iesu), then finally Jesus around the 1600s when the letter J came into usage.

                  The current Christian version of the sun god story comes from the Council of Nicaea, which at its heart was an attempt to establish a universal Roman religion to eliminate the religious feuds that were occupying the empire at that time. As a universal religion it had to incorporate the essential elements of all the major competing sects of the day, so sun god symbolism figured heavily in the resulting unified doctrine. Constantine's miraculous "conversion" however, was more likely political expediency - an attempt to centralize and control worship from Rome. And it worked, for over 1000 years. Still doing a half-decent job today, in fact.

    • Re:Acid (Score:5, Interesting)

      by klenwell (960296) <klenwell&gmail,com> on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:44PM (#20894049) Homepage Journal
      In his book, Phantoms in the Brain, neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran mentions this device in his discussion of psychological disorders. IIRC, he compares the sensation to those symptoms that are exhibited by individuals with a messiah complex.

      He describes it as excessive emotional "kindling" (often associated with epilepsy -- the tact I believe Scorsese adopted in the Last Temptation of Christ) that leads one to invest spiritual significance in events and experiences most people would experience as ordinary or mundane.

      Now place your God Helmet on your head and reread this post -- you'll see what I mean.
      • by Sentri (910293) on Monday October 08 2007, @01:36AM (#20894783) Homepage
        Tact

        1. The sense of touch; feeling.
        2. The stroke in beating time.
        3. Sensitive mental touch; peculiar skill or faculty; nice perception or discernment; ready power of appreciating and doing what is required by circumstances.
        ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tact [wiktionary.org] )

        Tack

        1. small nail with a flat head
        2. loose seam used to temporarily fasten pieces of cloth
        3. (nautical) part of a sail (Wikipedia) specifically the lower corner on the leading edge of the sail relative to the direction of the wind.
        4. (nautical) direction, hence approach try a different tack. Specifically a course or direction that enables the vessel to head upwind. See also reach, gybe.
        5. part of the harnessing for a draft animal or riding animal, e.g. a horse pulling a wagon, or a riding horse. Includes bit, bridle and reins.
        ( http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tack [wiktionary.org] )

        Tack No. 4

        People miss this one all the time, you adopt a tack, tact is what I lack :-)
    • by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 08 2007, @12:06AM (#20894207)
      Neuroscientists find God in mushrooms [nzherald.co.nz]:

      ...

      For the Johns Hopkins study, 30 middle-aged volunteers who had religious or spiritual interests attended two eight-hour drug sessions, two months apart, receiving psilocybin in one session and a non-hallucinogenic stimulant - Ritalin - in the other. They were not told which drug was which.

      One-third described the experience with psilocybin as the most spiritually significant of their lifetime and two-thirds rated it among their five most meaningful experiences.

      In more than 60 per cent of cases the experience qualified as a "full mystical experience" based on established psychological scales, the researchers say. Some likened it to the importance of the birth of their first child or the death of a parent.

      The effects lasted for at least two months. Eight out of 10 of the volunteers reported moderately or greatly increased wellbeing or life satisfaction. Relatives, friends and colleagues confirmed the changes.

      The study is one of the first in the new discipline of "neurotheology" -the neurology of religious experience. The researchers, who report their findings in the online journal Psychopharmacology, say that, though unorthodox, their aim is to explore the possible benefits of drugs like psilocybin.

      Google has more on neurotheology [google.com]

          • by fractoid (1076465) on Monday October 08 2007, @01:49AM (#20894853) Homepage

            Drugs are bad, because they cause physiological (chemical) dependence
            No. Physiologically addictive drugs are bad because they cause physical dependence. Most drugs are not physiologically addictive, and of those that are, often substantial exposure is required. Also, legal drugs are among the most physically addictive (nicotine [wikipedia.org], caffeine [wikipedia.org]) and harmful (alcohol, nicotine again) of drugs. Obviously I'm not condoning opiates, crystal meth, cocaine etc. which are very physically addictive and physically harmful. I'm just pointing out that the amount of disinformation around is staggering, and that many banned substances are banned due to puritanical administrative agendas rather than real medical or societal concerns.

            Most designer or party drugs (speed, MDMA), and so called 'smart drugs' (see 'smart shops' [wikipedia.org] or 'head shops'), are non-addictive. They are usually banned on a pretext of anecdotal evidence or a few cases of death or illness following use, which generally could have been avoided with proper precautions and quality control. For instance, Psilocybin mushrooms (as the GGP mentions) have been shown to produce religious experiences.

            As for designer drugs, from the wiki page on effects of MDMA [wikipedia.org]:

            Comparison of the number of ecstasy pills estimated to be consumed in England and Wales per year compared to the number of deaths resulting from ecstasy use, suggests that the risk of death from taking ecstasy is around 1 death per 100,000 users per year. This is approximately the same risk of death as is associated with adverse drug reactions to estrogen-containing (combined) forms of hormonal contraception.
            You're about as likely to die from a weekend party pill as you are from your contraceptive pill.
    • by Moraelin (679338) on Monday October 08 2007, @02:26AM (#20895061) Journal
      It's not entirely a new phenomenon, and your mentioning acid reminds me of the rampant ergotism [wikipedia.org], a.k.a. St Anthony's fire they had at times in the middle ages.

      Short version: it's produced by the toxin a parasitic fungus that grows on certain kinds of grain and grass. Eating contaminated grains produces LSD-like hallucinations, but also extreme vasoconstriction that often (but not always, if the dose is low enough) results in gangrene. Which in turn often resulted in death.

      Apparently, the problem was big enough at times that (A) they had a monk order (the Order of St. Anthony) specialized in trying to save people affected by the result, and (B) outbreaks of whole freakin' cities dancing euphorically in the streets and having mystical/religious visions and revelations.

      Kinda makes me wonder how many of the prophecies and martyrdoms that the the various religions were based on, well, were just the result of hallucinations. I mean, obviously some people lied their arse off to gain an advantage or revenge in the name of religion, but I'm willing to admit that some were genuinely honest and relating miracles and stuff they actually witnessed. Or, rather, and this is the important part: thought they witnessed, while on an ergot trip. Or while they were delirious with fever, or having a bad heat stroke (having visions and revelations in the desert sure was common), or any other kind of hallucination and delirium.

      For example, at the risk of offending the French, I wonder about Joan d'Arc. Went and fought for the good ol' Salic law that women can't inherit anything at all, and got burned at the stake... all supposedly because of a divine vision commanding her to. Could it be that the poor girl had just eaten a bit of bad rye?

      How many other saints and prophets had?

      Or given a tightly knit group that travelled and ate together (e.g., monks in the same monastery, or let's say... 1 guy and his 12 apostles?) it only takes one contaminated meal for _all_ of them to have an acid trip together.

      Or here's another thought: almost 1% of the population are schizophrenic, and at least _some_ forms of it are characterized by hallucinations. And in the ancient times and middle ages, it could only be worse, since they didn't have psychiatrists and neuroleptics: once started on the road to madness, the only way was towards worse. Stuff like hearing voices, seeing ghosts, etc. Given thousands of years and populations of millions of people, odds are good some will eventually have delusions of divine miracles and messages.

      Briefly: Is it still a miracle if it only happened in someone's drug-addled brain?
  • Proof! (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:31PM (#20893925)
    This is proof that Science is a Tool of the Devil!

    Oh, Jebus, curse these rotten, immoral Satanic Scientists to the ever-lasting hell they deserve!
      • Re:Proof! (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Cassius Corodes (1084513) on Monday October 08 2007, @12:05AM (#20894193)
        Except of course for the tiny contribution that is of all of human technology and knowledge that scientists have contributed. A small matter I know, but I felt the need to add it.
  • by mad.frog (525085) <steven&crinklink,com> on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:32PM (#20893945)
    ...maybe the fields actually force "God" to show up in the room while it's switched on.

    (Hey, no less crazy than any other hypothesis out there)
  • by Dachannien (617929) on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:33PM (#20893951)
    I grok helmet.

  • by MillionthMonkey (240664) on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:41PM (#20894015)
    Bugs Bunny: [singing] Oh, mighty warrior of great fighting stock! Might I inquire to ask-Eh, [eats a carrot] what's up, Doc?
    Elmer Fudd: [singing] I am going to kill the Wabbit!
    Bugs Bunny: [singing] Oh, mighty hunter, twil be quite a task. How will you do it? Might I inquire to ask?
    Elmer Fudd: [singing] I will do it with my spear and magic helmet!
    Bugs Bunny: [singing] Your spear and magic helmet?
    Elmer Fudd: [singing] Spear and magic helmet!
    Bugs Bunny: [singing] Magic helmet?
    Elmer Fudd: [singing] Magic helmet!
    Bugs Bunny: Magic helmet.
  • by Keyper7 (1160079) on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:43PM (#20894041)
    ...after seeing the volunteer scream "Oh, GOD! Oh, GOD!" while being stimulated.

    I think they discovered a G-something, but not exactly God.
  • by eegad (588763) on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:54PM (#20894109)
    Just because you can replicate the sensory experience of something by "poking" at the brain doesn't mean that a real outside stimulus is false. For instance, I think you could probably make the brain experience the sensory perception of color by "poking" at the visual cortex. That doesn't change the fact that there are real world stimuli that evoke this experience as well. In short, showing that the brain is capable of experiencing something because of a different, artificial stimulus does not predict or rule out the primary "natural" source of that experience. Although it does present an interesting question for evolutionary theory - why does this perception ability exist?
    • by hackingbear (988354) on Monday October 08 2007, @12:00AM (#20894155)

      Although it does present an interesting question for evolutionary theory - why does this perception ability exist?
      Because it is clearly advantageous for the highly intelligent beings to have faith and believe in God (whether it exists or not). For example, people will be less likely killing each other on the fear of revenge by the God. Evolution creates God.
        • by ultranova (717540) on Monday October 08 2007, @01:53AM (#20894887)

          Do you really think belief in fairy big beard or whatever makes people less likely to kill each other? Seems to me that it makes them more likely to band together with the people who believe the same bullshit as they do and kill those who don't.

          So, what you're saying is that the tribe which believes in a god of some sort, will be more united and aggressive than a tribe which doesn't, and therefore have an evolutionary advantage ? And you do realize that the tribe members are less likely to kill each other, at least as long as heathen enemies exist ?

        • by n dot l (1099033) on Monday October 08 2007, @02:28AM (#20895067)

          Do you really think belief in fairy big beard or whatever makes people less likely to kill each other?
          Yes, at least within a group of believers. I mean, look at what happens when law and order break down in a city: random violence breaks out and does a lot of damage which will later have to be repaired. Religeon is just a tool to legitimize those that impose the laws on the rest, and the belief in the magic sky-fairy that sees everything makes people police themselves more than they otherwise would - after all, societies have always been ruled by a minority of the population, and if people didn't keep themselves in line there'd be no way to maintain order.

          In terms of early tribalism, the ones that figured it out grew into stable societies and prospered. The ones that didn't either stayed extremely small so that ordinary family bonds took care of most in-fighting, or were simply wiped out. Evolution.

          A good example of religeon's utility is what happened in a lot of Eastern European nations after the communists had thoroughly suppressed the churches: they lost the old "love your neighbor, work hard, don't step out of line, and God will reward you in the end" ethic/morality. By the time my parents (who are from a formerly communist country) entered the work force (several generations later) it had become a sport to slack off as much as possible and steal some little thing from work each day - and I'm talking about the vast majority of the population here. After all, if it isn't somehow wrong to steal from the state, and be a burden on society in general then why bother working hard?

          It doesn't sound like much but it adds up fast when you consider how many people did this, and that their economies really weren't geared to mass produce cheap, disposable items like ours are (pens are worth a hell of a lot more when they're made of metal rather than cheap plastics). If the communists had simply found a way to get (well, force) a genuine endorsement from the various churches (like all the rulers of the even more brutal and repressive fudal system that preceeded many of their regimes had) rather than fighting them and thus convincing the population that they were evil, they would have lasted a lot longer (higher levels of production, less energy expended policing the population).

          I know, I'm simplifying in order to illustrate my point - there's obviously a lot more to it than that, and what you describe isn't invalid by any means (one only has to look at the Islamic world to see it in action). I just don't think it precludes the fact that religeous beliefs do serve to enforce societal norms - whatever those may be.
    • by ranton (36917) on Monday October 08 2007, @01:21AM (#20894695)
      Everything you say is correct except for saying that these results are completely inconclusive.

      The first and most major result of such experiments is to show that no "religious experiences" can be trusted as personal proof of an almighty being. Just because you have had a few instances in your life when you truly felt God's presense, that alone should mean virtually nothing without some other verification. If this sensation can be created without God's presense, then it is no longer valid "proof" of his existance.

      While this induced stimuli is artificial, it still shows that such stimuli can be false. A computer screen can "trick" the human brain into thinking there are actual monsters on a screen, but that just shows that simply seeing something is not proof that it is really there. I will need some other form of proof other than just a vision of a monster is inside my wall, because there could be a tv projector creating the image.

      There are also natural causes of false stimuli. I could see a mirage of water on the road ahead of me when there is no water for instance.

      Of course nothing in this study "proves" that there are no such things as true divine experiences. All it "proves" (as if a single study could ever prove anything) is that simply believing that you have had a religious experience is largely meaningless. The next step in the research is to find natural causes of such metaphysical perceptions. That would still not prove anything, but it would again make if far more likely that any divine experience is untrustworthy.

      --
    • by tukkayoot (528280) on Monday October 08 2007, @01:58AM (#20894921) Homepage

      Just because you can replicate the sensory experience of something by "poking" at the brain doesn't mean that a real outside stimulus is false. For instance, I think you could probably make the brain experience the sensory perception of color by "poking" at the visual cortex. That doesn't change the fact that there are real world stimuli that evoke this experience as well. In short, showing that the brain is capable of experiencing something because of a different, artificial stimulus does not predict or rule out the primary "natural" source of that experience.

      True, it just tells us that there is probably nothing "magical" or "divine" about the experience itself. Indeed, if the experience can be triggered in a laboratory, it is reasonable to assume it happens "naturally" outside of the laboratory as well -- it doesn't necessarily follow that the such natural experiences accurately correspond to actual phenomena any more than is the case when people put on this helmet. Feeling as if you're in the presence of a god, demon, ghost or lurking shadow monster is something most of us can say we've experienced, but empirical evidence for gods, demons, ghosts and shadow monsters is decidedly lacking. The most rational explanation for such experiences is they are all "in our heads" so to speak. That doesn't mean it's the correct explanation, but it's the one I'm going with for the time being.

      Although it does present an interesting question for evolutionary theory - why does this perception ability exist?

      It is an interesting question, but it should be asked with the proper emphasis, in the proper context. Being capable of sensing the presence of empirically unverifiable entities is an ability in the same way that being fooled by an optical illusion is an ability. So instead of asking "why" we have evolved this "ability," I would ask how we have evolved this attribute.

      It could be that this attribute itself conferred some useful survival and reproductive benefit, or it could be a neutral or slightly counterproductive "side effect" of attributes that are too advantageous to have been eliminated by natural selection. Humans, like many animals, have an agency detection system of sorts ... we need to be able to detect potential predators, prey, comrades, mates, etc. This agency detection system is a bit overactive ... false positives are not unheard of, because the evolutionary cost/risk of being a little too sensitive may be lower than being a little under-sensitive. Also, humans are social animals capable of running elaborate internalized social simulations, vividly imagining the moods, motivations and behaviors of real or imagined entities, both human and non-human ... this is something else that we've evolved to do rather liberally. We've even been known to shed tears for beings that we know exist only in our imaginations or in a story book.

      Combining these two attributes (overactive agency detection + social simulation, projection and empathy) it's not hard to imagine why people might sometimes have experiences such as those described in the article and that they would take the shape of religious icons that have been conditioned from youth to treat as real, true and important. Given the self-propagating and self-reinforcing (what you might call "memetic") quality of these beliefs and their consequential social importance, it may indeed be in one's best interest (from a survival and reproductive point of view) to at least give the appearance of earnestly believing in them, which the occasionally "feeling" of an invisible "presence" would help produce. So it could be a component of a sort of evolutionary feedback loop.

      For more on religion from a sociobiological perspective, and its potential implications, I recommend Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel Dennett and Religion Explained: The Evolutionary Origins of Religious Thought by Pascal Boyer. The preceding is mostly a crude reformulation or extension of the ideas contained within those volumes.
          • by E++99 (880734) on Monday October 08 2007, @03:03AM (#20895241) Homepage

            You OTOH pretend there might be another explanation for the feeling of divine than random brain function, you pretend that a real god come into play. The burden of evidence to demonstrate it is on your side.

            Given that there is apparently an organ in the brain for sensing God, I would say that the burden of proof is on those who say it is for something other than sensing God.
  • by SourGrapes (1003959) on Monday October 08 2007, @12:00AM (#20894149)
    First of all, this is an old experiment, I remember reading about it a long time ago. But while it's interesting from a neuroscience point of view to discover the location of these experiences within the brain, it doesn't give us any philosophical insight into the existence or non-existence of God. On the one hand, it could be that the religious experiences that people have had throughout history were caused by random events stimulating this bit of the brain. But from the theistic perspective, it seems obvious that if God exists He would build the brain with some capacity to detect His presence under certain circumstances -- just as we can't say that the fact the experience of seeing colour is caused by certain brain regions being stimulated means that colour doesn't exist except in our heads, we can't say that this experiment proves that God is just in our heads either. So: philosophically uninteresting.
    • by pohl (872) * on Monday October 08 2007, @12:09AM (#20894227) Homepage

      But from the theistic perspective, it seems obvious that if God exists He would build the brain with some capacity to detect His presence under certain circumstances

      Interesting spin, but you're stretching it. And I think this is interesting, because every time science learns something about the universe or the mind like this the rhetorical effort required to work God back into the model gets more tortured. And that trend, I would say, constitutes a hint as to where to look for philosophical insight, were one inclined to glean some.

      • by mstone (8523) on Monday October 08 2007, @02:26AM (#20895057)

        Science and religion are orthogonal to each other. The set of axioms that runs:

        1. Science deals in falsifiable statements.
        2. 'God' cannot be falsified.
        3. Science disproves (falsifies) 'God'

        wouldn't last five minutes in Introduction to Logic 101.

        The only rational thing to say is that science does not allow us to make statements about the existence of 'God', which should hardly be a surprise to anyone.

        Science deals largely with the study of symmetries.. things that allow us to ignore some kind of change. The laws of projectile motion remain the same (are symmetric) regardless of whether you're facing north or south; whether you're standing in Boston or Beijing.

        One thing that's extremely easy to ignore is 'agency'. You can write a doctoral thesis on the kinetics and aerodynamics of a curveball, but you can't use any of it to 'prove' or 'disprove' the existence of Nolan Ryan. Science only allows us to talk about how the ball behaves subsequent to a given set of initial conditions. It doesn't allow us to extrapolate that behavior back to the agent which imposed those original conditions.

        At the end of the day, there are only two possible end-states for science: Either we'll be able to reduce the creation of our universe to a set of repeatable phenomena that could be reproduced by an intentional agent with sufficient resources, or we'll find that we can't reduce the creation of our universe to a set of repeatable phenomena. In other words, we'll either prove that 'God' could exist, or we'll prove that 'God' must exist.

        Besides, science doesn't have all that much going for it in the Universal Truths department. It has a tendency to paper over difficult fundamental questions by slapping a name on what happens, and sweeping the rest of the mess under the rug of combinatorial complexity.

        When Newton published his theory of gravity, it was denounced as mysticism by his peers. They considered the idea of 'action at a distance' tantamount to saying, "God did it." General relativity papered over the problem by calling it 'curved space/time'. We still don't really have any solid answers on what 'space' or 'time' are, and the mechanism of 'gravity' is still an open question, but GR has great predictive power, and tons of experimental validation.

        In 1909, Rutherford discovered 'the hand of God' when he proved that electrons don't fall to the lowest possible energy state as predicted by the most basic laws of electrodynamics. Quantum theory papered over that problem by calling it 'uncertainty'. The fact that we can't explain 'uncertainty' in any terms other than 'it just happens' is something we can ignore. QT also has great predictive power and tons of experimental validation.

        The small fact that GR and QT are mathematically incompatible -- meaning they can't both describe the same universe -- is something we don't talk about when the children are in the room.

        Ffor all the intricate math, and all the really cool things we've done by reducing physics to engineering, we're still dealing with the simplest cases of the simplest pieces we can find. Inverse-square law? We're so excited about being able to call it a Universal Truth that we'll ignore the fact that the N-body problem is provably unsolvable in the general case. Protein folding? Meh.. let's harness a few teraflops of distributed processing power and brute-force our way through the umpty-zillion possibilities. Consciousness? It is to laugh. 'God'? Not even on the map.

        A large part of what makes science and math such great tools is that they tell us their own limits. We know for a fact that mathematics as we practice it today cannot derive all possible truths from a finite set of axioms. We know that science doesn't give us the tools to discuss matters of agency or initial-first-causes.

        Watching people ignore those limits and use 'science' to 'disprove God' offends me as a mathematician.

    • by Joe Tie. (567096) on Monday October 08 2007, @12:35AM (#20894415)
      What does God need with a brain? Aren't religious experiences supposed to involve that special nonbiological soul thing?
  • by treyTTU (931851) on Monday October 08 2007, @12:03AM (#20894175) Homepage
    but perhaps, and I am just saying perhaps, this is a communication region in the brain, and stimulating it analogous to stimulating the nerve of the ear, or stimulating the region of the brain interpreting signals from the eye. It would seem if you wanted a religious explanation, this could be the "communication center" for an other state of being than the one we're currently in. Like I said, this will be an unpopular opinion.
  • Imagine if you could get a machine that could give a whole room full of people the feeling of god at the press of a button. Has amazing potential for abuse. What if it fit in your pocket and worked within a proximity - then everyone around you would feel your presence! hmmm, I wonder if my wife would then show me respect? Probably not :-(

    I wonder how it would apply to sales, getting a job, meeting the oppsite sex, a president negotiating with another one. Certainly would add value to face time.

    • by EinZweiDrei (955497) * <einzweidrei@wildmail.com> on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:51PM (#20894091)
      It sounds as though you're more afraid of this work than its authors are 'afraid of [religion]'. Slashdot has been known for biased summaries in the past, but this one is [miraculously!] almost straight synopsis, as is the article. Neither makes any moral or philosophical assertations. [In fact, the article asserts that the technology could be used to make non-theists happier!]

      How is this not news that matters? Isn't this a little more important than articles about the latest nuance in the Linux Task Scheduler? Might it not help us understand that whole religion bit that's been, you know, an integral part of the human experience for all of observable history?

      Perhaps a little introspection as to what about this article so upsets you would yield some overall personal benefit.

      :Cheers.:
    • Re:...maybe (Score:5, Interesting)

      by arth1 (260657) on Sunday October 07 2007, @11:57PM (#20894125) Homepage Journal
      Of course not. Judging by past occurrences of when a rational explanation has explained away something previously seen as divine, there will likely be an extended period of denial and attacks, even personal, on the people investigating this. This will be followed by a schism in the religions, where the mainstream will accept it but say it's irrelevant as [religious manuscript] is symbolic and not to be taken literal, and, anyhow, it doesn't disprove anything. The fundies, on the other hand, will continue to struggle in denial for centuries until eaten by the crocodiles.

      What's dangerous is if someone manages to come up with a cure for this, or other religious afflictions. Or, even worse, a vaccine or other preventative measures. Then I predict all hell will break lose.

      Regards,
      --
      *Art
    • Re:...maybe (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mstone (8523) on Monday October 08 2007, @12:47AM (#20894491)
      You're confusing the mechanism of perception with the existence of a source.

      Brain surgeons have long known that stimulation of the temporal lobe can make people hear voices. That doesn't count as proof that 'voices' don't really exist, though.. unless you're writing the Cliff's Notes summary of The Matrix.

      One could just as well ask why such a center exists in the brain if nothing exists to stimulate it.

        • Re:serious answer. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by seriesrover (867969) <seriesrover2@yahoo.com> on Monday October 08 2007, @12:48AM (#20894505)
          Well a POV from one of those theists...does this "God box" prove anything? No, it shows that one can emulate, or at best recreate, a spiritual experience. Of course I don't know how on earth anyone can measure it as being a "God box" but I'll put that aside. But it hardly disproves the existance of God when there are so many other unanswered questions that aethists don't appear to have answers for....in my opinion that are conclusive.


          If for example I had a "taste box" that made everything taste like chocolate...it doesn't prove that nothing exists that tastes of chocolate.


          And for all the theists I know, only a small fraction would tell people they are going to burn in hell or go around forcing people (forcing what exactly?). The overwhelming majority don't do that and either silently disagree (by respecting your beliefs) or state their beliefs in a civil, non confrontational way. On what you say about a double standard I think you're reading different semantics to what they mean. You can respect (accept someone has a POV in a civil manor), but disagree with them.

              • Re:serious answer. (Score:5, Insightful)

                by PurpleBob (63566) on Monday October 08 2007, @03:11AM (#20895281)
                1. Evolution. Animals that can think eat the ones that can't.
                2. Evolution. Populations of moral animals survive better than populations of immoral ones.
                3. You can't model the Big Bang with Newton's Third Law, so don't try. And since "time" and "cause and effect" are aspects of this universe, it doesn't make sense to ask what happened "before" the Universe or what "caused" it.
                4. Hopefully, the fact that you love your family manifests itself in observable facts about the real world, something that religious statements usually lack.

                You're welcome.
              • Re:serious answer. (Score:5, Insightful)

                by BillyBlaze (746775) <tomfelker@gmail.com> on Monday October 08 2007, @03:29AM (#20895413)
                Our ability to think and reason, and our sense of right and wrong, can be adequately explained by evolutionary psychology.

                Science can't explain how or why the initial conditions of the universe came about. But religion can't either. All it does is replace those unknowns with totally unsubstantiated story, and in doing so creates even more unknowns. For example, religion can't explain how or why an omniscient personal God came about.

                I presume there's evidence that you love your three daughters, so you can "prove" it to me. Otherwise, no, I wouldn't believe it. If I claim the plate of spaghetti I am about to eat loves you, but I can't prove it, should you believe it? I certainly hope not, because there's no evidence that my spaghetti even exists, let alone that it has exhibited love for your daughters.
                  • Re:serious answer. (Score:5, Interesting)

                    by WiFiBro (784621) on Monday October 08 2007, @05:00AM (#20895949)
                    "But I don't hear answers from any other quarter."
                    You must be living in a special world, never heard of various other relogions offering similar ancient stories which to me are not distinguishable (since i shed of my childhood Christian indoctrination) ?

                    "you don't think your existance is a good reason to at least contemplate it?"
                    Um, I've looked at myself, contemplated the existence of the Hebrew God, and read a bit here and there about the background of biblical stories. When I add all up my conclusion for now is that there is abundant evidence that the bible is a collection of subjective and heavily edited material. Resulting in a strange mix of violence and orders to kill quite a few people I rather not kill, such as name-calling children, teenagers in puberty, and people spreading other beliefs.
                    Looking at it from a philosophical pov i think the alternatives given by modern biology are a lot more coherent. This magnetic machine does not disprove God, something which is impossible by definition, but it is another indication that there is a God-shaped hole in the brain waiting to be filled with whatever religion available.

                     
        • Re:Proves nothing (Score:5, Insightful)

          by QuantumG (50515) <qg@biodome.org> on Monday October 08 2007, @12:42AM (#20894465) Homepage Journal
          Hehe, I get the feeling that everyone else who is posting comments like yours is just playing the devil's advocate but you really believe what you just wrote don't you?

          The *point* of the demonstration is to show that there is an area of the brain that is trivial to stimulate and which causes "connection to the sacred". What it shows is that religious experience is hardwired into us. It is not learned and it is not a mystical thing. It is a physical part of the brain.

      • Penfield Mood Organ (Score:4, Interesting)

        by Sentri (910293) on Monday October 08 2007, @01:45AM (#20894831) Homepage
        His example was just as valid as any other could be:

        "Another device from the novel is the "Penfield Mood Organ," named for neurologist Wilder Penfield, which induces emotions in its users. The user can dial a setting to obtain a mood. Examples include "awareness of the manifold possibilities of the future," "desire to watch television, no matter what's on it," "pleased acknowledgement of husband's superior wisdom in all matters," and "desire to dial." Many users have a daily schedule of moods. The Mood Organ also has a setting for depression states, which contradict its original purpose to cheer up its user." - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_Androids_Dream_of_Electric_Sheep%3F [wikipedia.org]

        A device which can make you see god also sounds like the mercerism box in DADOES?

        Its not the rarest meme in sci fi but YGBM (you gotta believe me) technology is well explored in a book I picked up called Rainbow's End, Vernor Vinge was the author I think.