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Baiji River Dolphin May or May Not Be Extinct

Journal written by ozmanjusri (601766) and posted by Zonk on Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:31 PM
from the they-don't-want-to-go-on-the-cart dept.
Science
ozmanjusri writes "Major news outlets are reporting that after 20 million years, Baiji (Yangtze River Dolphin) are now officially extinct. This is apparently actually old news; it was announced on a Baiji conservation website in December of last year. One outlet, though, is claiming they may not quite be completely dead yet. The same scientist that filed the report leading the the declaration of extinction is still hopeful: '"This is only one survey and...you can't have a sample in a survey, so you cannot say the baiji all is gone by the result of only one survey," he said. "For example, there is some side channels or some tributaries [where] we cannot go because of a restriction of navigation rules, and also we don't survey during the night-time so we may miss some animals in the Yangtze River." Professor Ding says based on anecdotal evidence, he remains confident the dolphins are still out there. "I'm pretty much sure there are a few of them left somewhere in the Yangtze River," he said. "I keep receiving reports from fishermen, they say they saw a couple of baiji somewhere, sometime."'"
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Journal: So Long, Baiji by ozmanjusri (601766)
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  • You Idiots (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward

    This is apparently actually old news; it was announced on a Baiji conservation website in December of last year.

    I'll do you one better than that, it was apparently reported on fucking Slashdot too [slashdot.org].

    Seriously, what is wrong with you people? Are you purposely making fun of yourselves? Because to those of us who aren't in on the joke, which is most of us I guess, it looks like the site is run by a bunch of fucking dumbasses.

  • A tautology! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Hikaru79 (832891) on Saturday August 11 2007, @10:39PM (#20200051) Homepage
    After the commercials, "Human Beings May or May Not Be Extinct"!
      • It is an idiomatic expression, not set theory. It indicates a precarious and undetermined situation. So, unlike a tautology, it does provide information: that the state is unknown, "too close to call."

        And the eternal battle between linguists and set theorists continues.
  • that there were 11 in captivity a few years back (they all died), they were trying to breed them in captivity. but they took tissue samples

    please, please, please someone tell me the chinese have some of those tissue samples in liquid nitrogen. given some technological progress then, we might be able to bring the baiji back to life in a century or so

    otherwise, the chinese deserve international sanctions for losing some of our shared world species diversity. it should be a un mandate with economic consequence
    • The dolphin is one of many past and even more future extinctions caused by China. I'd start buying stock in environmental clean up technology now -- in a few decades their entire country will resemble the Love Canal disaster.
    • You're forgetting the most important point, how did they taste in sushi? Several million Japanese are dying to find out. See, there are good reasons for cloning.
    • "the baiji is a potent chinese symbol to the chinese themselves"

      I thought they've replaced that symbol with portraits of George Washington instead long ago -- replaced along with any concern for living in harmony with nature (Taoism) or compassion towards other living beings (Buddhism).

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        So it's okay if I track you down and shoot you? After all, human beings die all the time. They did before I started locating strangers on the internet and shooting them, and they'll still die long after my bloody killing spree is ended by my death. It's not that big a deal, right?

          Note to parent poster: Death by natural causes is different from death by human intervention. The same goes for collective deaths, A.K.A. extinction.
        • LOL... "culturally significant animal"...

          Well shit, that's a great reason to get all worked up about it.
          • if it's a culturally significant animal, there is more reason to get worked up about it

            exactly what is wrong with that observation? what do you not understand about it?

            • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

              by zero_offset (200586)
              Extinction is pretty serious, regardless of whether that species matters to us or not. Congratulations, you've discovered a whole new category of "shallow"... worsened by the fact that apparently the main "cultural significance" of this animal is/was that it's tasty enough to fish into extinction. There's a Catch-22 for you.

              I'm by no means a greasy-haired wild-eyed foaming-at-the-mouth green-nazi hippie douchebag, pretty nearly the opposite in fact, and I certainly don't buy into the "stewards of the planet
        • At the moment, I'm starting to suspect that you're responsible for the extinction of your shift keys. And as someone who's had the misfortune of reading your angered scribblings on this issue, let me say that it's culturally significant to me that people capitalize properly.
      • the baiji has been important to the culture of china going back thousands of years, they were regarded as river goddesses. the chinese also venerate their ancestors. so, the chinese have just killed an animal that their ancestors regarded with great respect. there, there's some more of my western patronizing and condescending to speak on behalf of the chinese

        and yes, there should be international sanctions against china for this crime. yes, there probably won't be. because of course, if a crime is committed
        • Since it was culturally significant to the Chinese, I suspect the Chinese are the ones who care. But wait! They're the ones who killed it off! Guess they didn't really care that much.

        • Re:yes, education is needed (Score:5, Informative)

          by p0tat03 (985078) on Sunday August 12 2007, @04:16AM (#20201483)

          Hi. Chinese guy here. And yeah, you are being patronizing.

          It's true that the baiji are somewhat significant in Chinese culture, but to the point you seem to think it is. Personally nobody I knew ever thought about them, or indeed were aware of them outside of field trips to some science museum. The whole "ancestors placed importance in baiji" and "Chinese venerate ancestors" is just one big non-sequitor I'm not even going to touch.

          Keep in mind that the significance of the river dolphins was limited to an isolated geographical region, where the vast majority of Chinese did *not* reside. Maybe there are people living on the banks of the yangtze mourning their loss, but for the other 99.99% of Chinese people out there, things haven't changed a bit.

          Now... Regarding your previous comment. While it's certainly unfortunate and sad that the baiji have been killed off due to human actions, in the end who is responsible? Want to dig Mao out of the ground and put him on trial for instituting the Great Leap Forward that encouraged such reckless killings? Good luck with that. In the end, commercial fisheries, massively increased boat traffic, and the construction of the Three Gorges Dam were primary contributors to the extinction of these dolphins. IMHO all of these have been critical to raising the standard of living and quality of life for the Chinese people. I wish we could have both (human prosperity and ecological conservation), and perhaps we could have under more effective leadership or more resources, but those were the cards we were dealt.

          What would a serious conservation effort require to preserve these creatures? Stop using the Yangtze as an industry shipping lane? Spew even more toxic gases into the atmosphere by constructing the huge number of fuel-burning power plants that the Three Gorges Dam could replace? Stop fishing the Yangtze and deny a critical food source for the local population? I hate to be so human-ist about everything, but between the survival of humans the the survival of a bunch of dolphins, it's pretty clear which I pick.

          So now the baiji are (probably) all dead. What did we receive out of that deal? Millions of Chinese are now far more prosperous than they were before. Remote regions are no longer starving, and many now have access to proper food, shelter, and medicine. The situation in China, especially the rural areas, is not pretty, but for the most part it's a lot better than it was before.

          • how much additional effort would it have taken the chinese to save the dolphin from extinction?

            you seem to say that economic development, the three gorges damn, etc.: it required the dolphin go extinct. really? so china can exert great effort to build a damn, but not the tiniest of effort to save a dolphin?

            fact is, it is now the eternal shame of the chinese for killing this creature. not according to this westerner. don't ask me, ask your grandchildren

            they won't mind at all that your poor choices means the

          • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

            by petsounds (593538)
            It is sad that China cannot learn from the mistakes of the west. Your China is like America in the 1950s. All properity, all industry, no ecology. In 40 years, China and the world will be weeping at the ecological damage you have wrought upon the earth. Already you are poisoning your own people with smog. The Three Gorges Dam is an environmental, archaeological, and socioeconomic disaster. Important archaeological sites have been submerged, whole towns have been moved, and the Yangtze ecosystem will be
      • let me take you to right to the end game of the nihilist's position:

        1. if nothing matters, kill yourself. or at least shut up and stop posting on slashdot. it doesn't matter, right? so why are you talking about it if it doesn't matter?

        2. okay, then it does matter. so keep talking. but stop saying statements that contradict your demonstrated desire to say something about the subject matter. namely "it doesn't matter"

        on any ideological issue, there is being for it, being against it, and not caring about it

        not
      • Because they're immensely important to studying how consciousness works. We don't have a lot of ape species to experiment on, but the second tier on the cognitive spectrum is dolphins. Most significant in this aspect are the species which have diverged from the main lines long ago. This one in particular was very unique in that aspect, and we've never gotten around to properly studying it in that regard. Data on how consciousness both functions, and more importantly how it evolves, is now potentially unavai
      • read up about biodiversity and also ask you a question:
        what good are you? i mean, i don't need you, and i am pretty sure that pretty much 100% of the world population doesn't need you either.
  • Two-humped camels may or may not be extinct!

    Walruses may or may not be extinct!

    Jellyfish may or may not be extinct!

    The common house cat may or may not be extinct!

    Triceratops may or may not be extinct!
    • You might or might not be moderated +1 Funny.

      • No, logic. "Foo" and "not foo" are complementary statements--one of them is always true, because if either of them is false, the other is true by definition. If not foo, then "not foo". If not not foo, then "foo". Therefore, any statement of the form "foo or not foo" is guaranteed to be true.

  • Or maybe not. But probably. Not. On the other hand... of course, if you.. no, no, they're dead. I think. -The Thinker

  • I thought it was a cat? (Score:5, Funny)

    by HermDog (24570) on Saturday August 11 2007, @10:46PM (#20200105)
    Well, who's going to open the box and find out if the dolphins are dead or if they're cats?

  • May or May not? (Score:5, Funny)

    by sykopomp (1133507) on Saturday August 11 2007, @10:52PM (#20200131)
    Schroedinger would be proud and Einstein would piss his pants!!!... I daresay
  • I guess I'd better save the one I have in my freezer for a really special dinner, because I won't have to get another one. And the dolphin they're putting in those little cans is often adulterated with tuna, which spoils it in my opinion.

  • How thorough do these surveys have to be to finally declare a species extinct? I mean, there's a lot of water, isn't there? I mean, I know this isn't the middle of the ocean, but I'm sure there's a lot of space to cover. Logically speaking, to confidently say something is extinct, wouldn't that require a proof of exhaustion. Literally just checking every possible place and not finding any evidence of the animal. I mean, if they haven't checked everywhere, I don't think they should be saying 'extinct' ju

  • Miracle Max (Score:4, Insightful)

    by LightPhoenix7 (1070028) on Saturday August 11 2007, @11:24PM (#20200307)
    See, there's a big difference between mostly extinct, and all extinct. Now, mostly extinct: they're slightly not-extinct. All extinct, well, with all extinct, there's usually only one thing that you can do...

    In all seriousness, with so few members of the species, they're effectively extinct, and that's what counts. There may be one or two, but there's zero chance they'll balloon into a viable population. Even if we save genetic samples, we're decades, if not centuries, away from being able to reproduce an entire species, if we can even do that. Even if we have tissue samples from twenty different dolphins, and reproduce them through some hypothetical cloning technique, I'm not convinced that's enough genetic diversity to sustain the species.
    • That's the problem. If you do happen to have a population of twenty, I agree that it's not much. That may not be extinct now, but it's probably just borrowed time.

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Leperflesh (200805)
      An organism, particularly a mammal, is far more than its own DNA. Humans have 10 times as many bacterial cells in our bodies as human cells. Dolphins are no different. A baby dolphin no doubt gets cultures of all sorts of bacteria from its mother's milk. Unique symbiotic organisms live on the skin, in the gut, even in the blood in some animals.

      Further, the species is adapted to a particular ecological niche - in this case, the Yangtse River.

      Further, particularly in mammals, there are learned behaviors that
  • Let's say ALL the cute animals, and homo sapiens eventually die out. For whatever natural or man-made reason.

    So what?

    As long as there is some life left, there will be a "what's next".

    Do you really care who is at the top of the food chain a million years from now?

    • Of course I care who is at the top of the food chain. They'll be paying for my social security for the next million years after that point. Based upon the evidence I've collected showing that I have never actually died before, I see no reason why it should happen before 2 million years from now, provided I avoid car crashes, werewolves, and vitamin K-19.
    • I don't care too much if we're around, or dolphins for that matter. What I do care about is sentient life, animals able to contemplate their own consciousness. It's taken a really long time for that to evolve, and I'm not so certain that the planet has enough time left to get it into a tool using state, and off planet. Right now sentience has us as a representative. There might be more in space, but I do care that the only species we're a 100% sure of lives on. Dolphins, too, I care about for their place a

  • Professor Ding says based on anecdotal evidence, he remains confident the dolphins are still out there. "I'm pretty much sure there are a few of them left somewhere in the Yangtze River," he said. "I keep receiving reports from fishermen, they say they saw a couple of baiji somewhere, sometime."'"
    ... and they were delicious!
  • This unique life form is now gone forever. The lessons we could learn by studying it are now lost to eternity. Its unique role in the ecosystem is forever lost.

    We destroyed it. We literally choked the life out of it.

    Who are we to do this? Are we so confident in our superiority as to believe that a little temporary convenience to dump toxic industrial wastes is worth the complete loss of this life form?

    We were up in arms when a islamic government destroyed man made statues of buddha merely hundreds of years
    • The cool thing about being an individual is that I am only responsible for my own actions. When someone from my "race" invents something I don't claim credit just because he has the same color skin as I do. In the same way I don't beat myself up over the stupid shit other people do. Many humans are immoral and ignorant. Some are not. Everything I do myself is entirely my fault and cannot be blamed on anyone else. I have no excuses. You are only yourself. Nothing more.

  • Only a matter of time (Score:4, Informative)

    by toby (759) * on Sunday August 12 2007, @07:30AM (#20202233) Homepage Journal
    Not extinct yet? Check back in a few months, they'll be sure to be. But hundreds of species are on death row thanks to human greed and thoughtlessness, including the pangolin (UK Guardian) [guardian.co.uk]:

    5,000 of the world's rarest animals have been found drifting in a deserted boat near the coast of China.

    The pangolins, Asian giant turtles and lizards were crushed inside crates on a rickety wooden vessel that had lost engine power off Qingzhou island in the southern province of Guangdong. Most were alive, though the cargo also contained 21 bear paws wrapped in newspaper.

    According to conservation groups, the haul was discovered on one of the world's most lucrative and destructive smuggling routes: from the threatened jungles of south-east Asia to the restaurant tables of southern China. ...

    Despite the ban on pangolins, many restaurants offer their meat. The Chaoxing restaurant in Shenzhen said yesterday that pangolin was available but was only suitable for large dining parties.

    "The animal is very big - about 10kg," said a waitress contacted by telephone. "We serve it in hotpot. That is the tastiest way." ...

    A Guangdong chef ... described how to cook a pangolin. "We keep them alive in cages until the customer makes an order. Then we hammer them unconscious, cut their throats and drain the blood. It is a slow death. We then boil them to remove the scales."

    So while we thoughtlessly wipe out species after species, at least we treat every individual with unimaginable cruelty first. Yay humans.

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