Slashdot Log In
Architect Claims to Solve Pyramid Secret
Posted by
Zonk
on Sun Apr 01, 2007 09:49 PM
from the that's-one-way-to-do-it dept.
from the that's-one-way-to-do-it dept.
Alreadybutnotyet writes "A French architect claimed Friday to have uncovered the mystery about how Egypt's Great Pyramid of Khufu was built — with use of a spiral ramp to hoist huge stone blocks into place. The construction of the Great Pyramid 4,500 years ago by Khufu, a ruler also known as Cheops, has long befuddled scientists as to how its 3 million stone blocks weighing 2.5 tons each were lifted into place. 'The most widespread theory had been that an outer ramp had been used by the Egyptians, who left few traces to help archeologists and other scientists decode the secret to the construction. Houdin said he had taken into account the copper and stone tools available at the time, the granite and limestone blocks, the location of the pyramid and the strength and knowledge of the workers.'"
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
The Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way.
Full
Abbreviated
Hidden
Loading... please wait.
History Channel (Score:3, Informative)
Re:History Channel (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Re:History Channel (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:History Channel (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
When this pyramid was first excavated, there were no human remains inside. There were either never there or they were removed ages ago by sophisticated grave robbers.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:History Channel (Score:5, Insightful)
This guy's internal spiral ramp theory uses known tunnels that allow the pyramid to be built inside out while helping to keep laborers out of the sun.
He doesn't simply CGI all of this. He computer models it with physics to show how it could have been done with materials present for the time, and a reasonable workforce size, inside of 20 years.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
Couldn't they just leave some of it unfilled in, with the ramp being subtracted from the volume rather than added?
Then, when they have reached the top, they would start filling in the ramps from the top down. The small rocks and rubble that were used to make the actual inclines could then be moved into spaces within that were left unfilled.
Re:History Channel (Score:5, Interesting)
I wonder which part of piling sand onto the side of rocks in the desert you think couldn't be handled by tens of thousands of slaves over the course of decades. Is it the finding the sand? The moving it? I mean, is it also difficult for ancient people to get saltwater at the coast? Wood in the forest, perhaps?
For every person that remembers how much work it is to move a bunch of sand, I'll show you a person who forgets just how many slave-years were put towards shit like this back then. The pyramids were how Egypt showed social, technological, religious and cultural superiority. They weren't just about kings' egos; they were important tools in establishing position during trade, in scaring slaves into not rebelling, and so on. In the age where a two story house seems unlikely, man-made mountains are no joke.
When you hear ten thousand slaves for 25 years, it's not an exaggeration. Do you really think that this is more than 250,000 slave-hours? There are entire support towns excavated around the base of most of the pyramids; these things were obviously engineered from the perspective of city planners. It's no simple matter to coordinate, feed and home 10k people today, let alone when rocks still seem like a good thing to make weapons from.
They weren't just sitting around playing hackeysack, y'know.
Parent
Re:History Channel (Score:4, Interesting)
So yeah, much more impressive that way.
Parent
Re:History Channel (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No. My point was that we should be careful to rely upon what they wrote down in determining what they did. If this "recent research" is based off of other archeological findings, such as, for example, finding workers' living quarters where they found evidence of them eating food which slaves would not have been permitted to eat, then that might be considered better proof.
My point had nothing to do with whether they were slaves or
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
As far as I know, Carthage was the only empire in that area and timeframe which did not make significant use of slaves, and even they still traded in slaves as
Re: (Score:2)
Re:History Channel (Score:5, Informative)
Parent
Re:History Channel (Score:5, Informative)
Anybody can come up with an idea like the external ramp, it's a nice story but meaningless if it can't be verified. In other words, to call the external ramp idea a scientific theory, you'd have to show exactly where you think the remains of the ramp infrastructure are located, directly on the pyramid. You could also show places where you think the material of the external ramp was put, show stones which look to you like they were cut to form part of the ramp, etc. In other words, you'd have to connect the idea of the ramp to the physical evidence, so that other scientists could agree or disagree. Merely making a drawing of a spiral ramp in a book and waffling about it does not constitute a preexisting theory.
On the other hand, the internal ramp idea does constitute a real theory, because it actually makes a lot of engineering claims that can be checked by other scientists, like where the ramp actually is/was inside the pyramid etc.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:History Channel (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Oh, is this a real story? (Score:2)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Where's the evidence? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Alien aid for a third-rate planet (Score:5, Funny)
Due to some translation errors, and an over active project manager's ego, a simple request for a small pond to keep water for a herd of goats gets "innovated" into a series of pyramids that can be seen from far away. The rest is history.
It wasn't just the manager (Score:5, Funny)
- the client's manager (the pharaoh) couldn't be arsed to actually think what he needs and to specify it, and probably was also affraid to sign anything that doesn't cover all potential aspects, hypothetical future needs, buzzwords, etc, in one go. So it has to have not only a pond, but also sphinxes, obelisks, etc, just in case someone ever needs them, and sometimes because he just didn't really understand what he wants. Maybe also a case of new alpha dog having to piss on everything and mark his territory, so building a pond doesn't sound as grandious as restructuring the whole burial process in Egypt.
- the team's marketting guy just had to sell the biggest and most expensive thing he could, even if the client doesn't actually need it. So he took the Pharaoh to a restaurant and to golf, and established himself as the guy the Pharaoh can trust, unlike those pesky IT nerds... err... embalmers who insist that they need a pyramid for it like a fish needs a bycicle. He had to cut the price and deadline a bit, though, but he's proud that he made a sale, and it's not his problem how that's going to be built with only 20 men within the promised time.
- some other politics and power games were involved, such as between the vizier for construction and the vizier for agriculture, or between the nomarch (governor) of Saqqara and the nomarch of Thebes. Extra funds and grandious requirements are piled just to make a silly "I'm greater than you because my pet project got more funding than yours" point.
- the builders' manager had read in some "Construction Week" ragazine for managers that pyramids are the latest cool buzzword, and everything should be built with pyramids. He doesn't really understand what those are, when they're used, and when they're not used, since those ragazines are little more than fashion magazines and never actually give you the actual information needed to make an informed choice or design. So the pond must have pyramids too, he's sure that's what makes a project successful. He's also the only guy the marketter consulted with, if any.
- a couple of workers don't give a fuck about actually solving the problem, they just want the latest buzzwords on the resume so they can apply to an even better paid job. They heard that spiral ramps are the latest buzzword, so they have to have "has used spiral ramps" on their resume. The original spec for 3 ft tall pyramids in the corners of the pond gets ballooned into a gigantic monstrosity just so they can get that buzzword on their resume. (Of course, now there's a problem with the deadline, but that's not their problem.)
- the architect fully cooperates with the above, or maybe is one of the above, plus he has to justify his job. His boss doesn't really understand architecture, but can be smoked with lots of buzzwords and complicated diagrams. A complicated architecture with lots of clever buzzwords, (A) makes the boss go, "whoa, this guy is so smart, I'm happy we have him to plan all this for us", i.e., establishing credentials, and (B) "whoa, these projects are so complicated, good thing we had an architect to plan it for us", i.e., making sure he gets to keep his job and be called upon for the next pond too, and (C) it lets him get paid for months, maybe years, of just painting diagrams, which is good.
- a couple of workers are in it just for fun and playing with the biggest rocks and newest techniques, and only incidentally get to be paid for it. They'll cheerfully help inflate the spec even more, because it lets them play with big stones and logs instead of the boring old bricks for a 3ft decoration.
- most of the builders are contractors or consultants paid by the hour. 'Nuff said.
- at least one manager involved has realized that, according to the corporate rules, he'd get a promotion if he had just a couple more people under him. Unsurprisingly, his solution to everything is to hire more people and push for even mo
Parent
Probably a true story (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Damnit, I guess I'll have to try next year.
Re:Probably a true story (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Next year can I be modded higher for the meta meta comment?
Feasible... (Score:3, Insightful)
Personally, I think the most "obvious" method would be correct. The Egyptians would not have been able to do a computer simulation to determine if their building plans were feasible. Thus I would think they would have gone with the most obvious, full-proof method, even if it would have required more resources. The article is short on details, but any building techniques beyond a certain level of complexity would likely have been too much of a gamble for them to attempt.
Dan East
Re:Feasible... (Score:5, Interesting)
Parent
Re:Feasible... practice? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Feasible... (Score:4, Informative)
That said, you are correct about this article being speculation. The author is making quite a claim without any physical evidence.
Examples of other pyramids: http://www.egyptologyonline.com/pyramids.htm [egyptologyonline.com]
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
The reason the story is annoying is that alongside "theor
No shortage of sand in Egypt (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:No shortage of sand in Egypt (Score:4, Interesting)
Parent
Other articles (Score:4, Funny)
You'd never guess he is French would you.
Simple calculation -- one block every 100 seconds (Score:2, Interesting)
Reed Punks (Score:4, Insightful)
Has there been any Peer review of this "discovery?"
This "prof" seems more than anything to be shilling for some 3D modeling software. The software is certainly quite impressive. The scene where the cap stone is raised by turning it, so that ropes attached to it twist and thereby lift it, is quite impressive as well; the ropes are suspended from a teepee like structure of wooden poles. I'm sure it would work once you got it moving the first ½ rotation; up to that point I'm sure you really had to push very hard...
Our good "prof" set out to find out how he could build a construction project (of the great pyramid) using only the materials of the day, based on whatever evidence there is, and of course on his modern understanding of the world.
The scenes where wooden carry frames transport major stone blocks by the aid of counter weights seemed straight out of Indiana Jones. It's certainly possible so he claimed, but the technology seems really pushed to the limit(s).
What happened to the idea that the stones were "wrapped" by four pieces of 90 degree "curves" so that when all tied together the stones could be rolled around like "wheels."
Re:Reed Punks - so very right (Score:3)
Now, spend a few thousand years figuring out clever ways to put these tools together to get things done.
People often forget the element of time. We aren't as clever with rope and levers and ramps, because we have huge amounts of power to use or waste.
"Technology" doesn't
I have doubts (Score:5, Insightful)
Images serve as extremely persuasive representations of the past, and it often the case that a reasonably compelling image which doesn't clash do badly with out own pre-conceived notions will often be accepted without being questioned very much. A good example of this is the popular image of the Neanderthals as stooped brutish creatures - An image based upon work which was discredited more than 100 years ago (I forget the exact date). CG images can be even more persuasive due to their ability to move around and show people and systems in action.
I appreciate that this project is based upon actual engineering work, and isn't just a bunch of pretty pictures, however watching the presentation I can't help but feel that they are a little bit in love with their own images. They claim to be certain that their 'internal ramp' hypothesis is correct, and twice claim it is backed up by strong evidence, and yet they present no physical evidence whatsoever. All they have is a model which doesn't disprove their theory and a pretty 3D model. It is interesting study to be sure, but until they find physical evidence (and to be fair they have expressed an interest in looking for some) statements like 'This revolutionary idea sweeps away all the other hypotheses put forward up to now' (page 4 of the pdf) go much to far.
Simulation time (Score:4, Insightful)
All of you guys come out of your mother's basement and be my slaves.
No wages. Bad conditions. Whips and chains. Move some heavy rocks
for me and we will build one. Move it or die.
This is going to be fun but I hope there are no uprisings.
(PS: Yes, I know that Nova did it. However, mine will be full size. None of this 9 foot tall crap.)
Re: (Score:2)
Perhaps it's a joke to see if people will be excited at a theory that's been bandied about for a long time now?
Besides, I thought that we'd stop getting April Fools stories now that it's April 2nd GMT.
omgponies (Score:5, Funny)
Everybody knows the pyramids were created by giant aliens.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
You obviously haven't met them. I don't know how many times I've hit my head when I haven't ducked enough through their doorways. Freakin' superintelligent intergalactic species, you'd think they would be able to build a doorway more than 5' tall.
Re:omgponies (Score:5, Funny)
Bleh!
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)