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First Flying Dinosaurs Had Biplane Structure

Posted by Zonk on Tue Jan 23, 2007 10:40 AM
from the made-little-whirring-noises-to-keep-going dept.
Science
unchiujar writes to mention a BBC article about the design of the first flying dinosaurs. These possible early ancestors of avians apparently resembled biplanes in many ways, with legs hanging down in a fashion similar to WWI fighters. The researchers who made this discovery use this to argue the 'trees down' model of flight evolution, but the article points out this design may possibly be a failed evolutionary experiment. From the article: "Dr Chatterjee, from Texas Tech University in Lubbock, US, explained that two lines of evidence had led the team to this conclusion. Firstly, the researchers argue, dinosaurs and birds move their legs in a vertical plane, not sideways as the tandem flight pattern requires. Secondly, the feathers on Microraptor's hind legs are asymmetrical; one of the two vanes that extend either side of the shaft is narrower than the other. Aerodynamically, the narrow leading edge of these feathers should face forward in flight, against the direction of airflow. This would have given the flying reptiles lift. "
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  • Intersting theory... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jmagar.com (67146) on Tuesday January 23 2007, @10:54AM (#17724120) Homepage
    I'm having trouble visualizing what this may have looked like. The artist rendition is far too rectangular to be the way it actually was. Instead that diagram looks like the artist was trying to force it to resemble a modern wing.

    I wonder if it might be better diagrammed with the bird using its legs in an "A" framed sort of way. Much like the V shaped stabilizers of the F117, only inverted. This would provide some lift, and stability in flight....

    • I like your idea much better. It makes so much sense that the legs would be spread, and basing what kinds of movements were possible only based on fossil skeletons and a very unrepresentative subset of the reptilian species that remain alive today doesn't seem like great science. I'm thinking that if these creatures managed to get arboreal, they would have needed a great deal more agility than what the authors of this study suggest therefore would have a much less limited range of motion of the hip joints a
      • From TFA:
        "This contrasts with earlier reconstructions showing the dinosaur maintaining its wings in a tandem pattern, a bit like a dragonfly."

        The idea, that the hind legs of Microraptor gui would have been spread is old, and makes less sense than this new hypothesis. To have two wings in row would be useless because of the turbulence created by the front wings. And anatomy is a very legitimate branch of science: from a skeleton, even from a fossil one when it's as well preserved as this one, you can see qui
  • "Enough is enough! I've had it with this muthafuckin' snakes lookin' like muthafuckin' planes!"

  • But he's kind of a crank. (Score:3, Informative)

    by CapnRob (137862) on Tuesday January 23 2007, @11:05AM (#17724252)
    I know several vertebrate paleontologists, and every time I hear them talk about this guy, the general impression I get is that he's kind of a crank. He's not, to put it mildly, well-respected in the vert paleo community, and his views on this are about as widely held as the view that Wensleydale cheese is the root taxon for frogs.

    • I know several vertebrate paleontologists

      Don't all paleontologists have vertebraes?

      I'm sorry.

    • Wensleydale cheese is the root taxon for frogs.
      What an interesting theory. If true, it would revolutionize biology as we know it.

      Pray tell good sir, do you know where I might obtain funding to study this potential breakthrough in biology?

    • From the first post:

      "A reptile that lived 225 million years ago had triangular-shaped wings like the delta-wings of some jets."

      From this (new) post:

      These possible early ancestors of avians apparently resembled biplanes in many ways, with legs hanging down in a fashion similar to WWI fighters.

      Way to be able to tell the difference between a fighter jet [wikipedia.org] and a biplane [wikipedia.org]. I know this is slashdot and all, but you could at least read the summary.

      • Also from the first post:

        Last fall NatGeo reported that the first biplane configuration was on a dinosaur

        Way to be able to tell the difference between a dupe and a non-dupe. I know this is slashdot and all, but you could at least read the summary(ies).

  • Just another inbred lizard.

    Design flaw was the wings dropped off when it got a fright - which was when it first leapt from the trees. Ouch! Evolution pulls a nasty one!
  • The most frequent cause of their deaths: vines caught in their propellers. Second is running out of fuel.
  • With legs hanging down? I've never seen legs on a biplane?
  • This story reminds me of a Little Ceaser's commercial from maybe 1988.

    Guy: So what am I gonna do with this pizza box?
    Clerk: You ever hear of origami?
    Clerk frenetically folds pizza box.
    Clerk: It's a pterodactyl.
    Clerk runs with origami pterodactyl

  • What I want to know (Score:4, Funny)

    by Junior J. Junior III (192702) on Tuesday January 23 2007, @12:58PM (#17725876) Homepage
    Is how these dinosaurs managed to fire their machineguns through their propellers without shooting off the prop?
    • Steel plating on the leading edges of the prop blades of course. You just have to hope that you don't get a 180 degree ricochet.
    • I don't know about machine guns, but I'm sure they dropped some big bombs. I'm glad I don't have to clean that off my windshield!
  • I believe they became extincted when the RedBaronsaurus came to life as the next evolution step with its Fokker triplane wings and kill them all for feeding itself. Eventually, while the stocks declined the RedBaronsaurus just died.

  • "Curse you Red Velociraptor!"

    Chris Mattern

    • Re:Not designed properly (Score:5, Funny)

      by Bazman (4849) on Tuesday January 23 2007, @10:50AM (#17724072) Journal
      You'd think a flying spaghetti monster would have no trouble designing a flying thing...
    • Or it could be a suprisly good design. But the animal may had some other defect that cause it to die off such as Alergies to one of its major food source. Evolution doesn't create perfect life forms it creates ones that are good enough to survive. As well Evolution can go back to a more primitive model because in the current situation it could thrive. So for example if the Majority of the most intelegent people chose not to have children the next generation will not be as smart. But if the majority of th
      • Of course, all of this assumes that intelligence is strictly genetic, which it isn't. That said, I know a certain guy in Germany in the 1930's who would certainly have subscribed to your newsletter.
        • No that certain guy in Germany in the 1930's would not have subscribed to my newletter. His view was that Evolution is the edd all be all to existance and evolution only makes things improve. Evolution doesn't always make things improve, it just make it good enough to go to the next generation. My senerio has the people themselves choosing if they want to to have children not some force forcing them too or not. I would agree that inteligence is not strictly genetic, envrioment and genetics have and equal

          • edd all be all

            senerio

            not some force forcing them too or not.

            inteligence

            envrioment

            have and equal comparison

            But there is the persons ability to lean is genetic.

            But staticly those with...

            intelegent

            then the chances of passing the genetic part of intelegence is loss.

            How many kids do you have?!!

      • For all we know it was an amazingly good design. Amazing enough that they evolved both flight and brain power, increased their scientific knowledge sufficiently enought to design spacecraft and left the planet with all the other dinosaurs. Explains the sudden dissapearance perfectly well.
    • The "being who designed everything" makes mistakes?

      I'm confused. Are you espousing ID/evolutionary creationism, or are you saying we were all created by the Greys?

      And if we were created by Greys, what would they have left to learn with anal probes?
      • No cancer victims will be allowed on the saucers come Xday, so they're just doing the pre-flight inspections. We'll assume that for some reason, those who have been probed are somehow included in with the paying members. Maybe by paying my $30 to "Bob", I have certified that I don't have rectal cancer. Or that I'll eat my own rectal cancer on a plate if served fresh and steaming hot. Or kill me, Fnord, Ramen.

    • Proof that intelligent deezine wins.

      Presidenshully yours,
      George W. Bush [whitehouse.org]

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Punko (784684)
      Except it wasn't the first design for non-insect flying animals.

      Pterosaurs preceeding flying dinosaurs by 75 million years. Pterosaurs were single winged and enormously successful.

      Modern birds evolved from the first flying dinosaurs, not from Pterosaurs, although Pterosaurs and dinosaurs had a common ancestor.

      There are 4 independant times flight evolved: Insects, pterosaurs, birds, and mammals. 4 different wing structures developed, and in the latter 3 cases, 3 different bone arrangments to suppor

    • Re:Not designed properly (Score:5, Funny)

      by Sloppy (14984) on Tuesday January 23 2007, @12:52PM (#17725768) Homepage Journal
      It's probably a good thing the elder things' wing experiments had only limited success. On one hand, we might be able to fly, but on the other hand: flying shoggoths!

      • Re:Not designed properly (Score:5, Insightful)

        by danpsmith (922127) on Tuesday January 23 2007, @11:27AM (#17724444)
        It is interesting that people who don't believe in design can't help themselves and use the word "design."

        It's not like the bunch of quacks that drummed up the "intelligent design" theory invented the word "design." Using it doesn't make anyone religious.

      • And in fact... (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Belial6 (794905) on Tuesday January 23 2007, @12:10PM (#17725056) Homepage
        And in fact, the ID folks specifically chose to use the words they did specifically to illicit responses just like yours. They hoped that they could use the choice of words to create confusion and hopefully trick people so they couldn't tell the difference between science and fairy tales.
      • The same could be said for most fiction written about past life on earth. That doesn't mean that the books should be moved to the non-fiction part of the library.

        To follow your logic, Hawking could write a scientific book about physics, and right in the middle put in "I Stephen Hawking am supreme ruler of the universe. All life must obey me." This would instantaneously make it true.

        • Re:Not designed properly (Score:4, Funny)

          by XenoRyet (824514) on Tuesday January 23 2007, @02:01PM (#17726928)

          Curiously written? There's an understatement. I'm sure if your stretch your imagination to its limit with apologist interpretations the bible can also be used as a car repair guide.
          Seriously, once my car wouldn't start, and I couldn't figure out why. Then I read what the bible had to say about things starting. It said "Let there be light". I took a look at the spark plugs, and woudn't you know it, no light in there. So I got new ones, and then there was light in there, and the car worked.

          See, the bible really can be used as a care repair guide.

    • Someone should tell Apple's lawyers about this bird - the 'Microraptor gui'. Sounds like prior art on a couple of their patents.
    • Canards are forward on the fuselage usually. The way this sounds its more like a horizontal stabilizer.
    • Well, those that didn't died, which only leaves those that adapted well enough.

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Big Smirk (692056)
      Without flaming your question. I assume what your really meant was "How did they evolve".

      Assume for a moment that feather like structures were already in nature. (Think hair or quills like porcupine)

      Now, if you lived in the trees, like squirrels, it might be advantages to stay in the trees and avoid predators that walk along the ground. So to find food, you either climbed down quickly, and run to the next tree -or- you jump from tree to tree.

      If you had feathers you could probably jump further, meaning you
    • The short-lived triplane dinosaurs couldn't get off the ground.

      I thought it was their bright red plumage that screwed up any camouflage they might have. Or the bi-winged dinosaur named Snoopy that kept shooting them down...

      Soko
    • Is it me or is dinosaur discovery actually dead?
      I think it is you. I think most dinosaur paleontologists would say that this is a very exiting period. In the past two decades, the number of known dinosaur genera has skyrocketed and things like computer modeling and phylogenetic analysis have vastly increased our understanding of dinosaurs.

      I have to think that most of the recent articles about these is to try to revitalize interest in the field but the simple fact is archeologists arn't that interesting.

      Poin
    • So, basically what you're saying is that you have a hard time understanding things that aren't movies, and you get frustrated and angry as a result, but blame the thing you don't understand.

      Sounds like a personal problem.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Deadstick (535032)
      the thing about biplanes is they need very little speed to stay in the air, due to all the wing area.

      Not hardly. A biplane has no more lift-generating capability than a monoplane of the same total area...in fact less, because of interference between the two wings. The primary reason for a biplane is that by adding a few struts and wires, you can easily make a lightweight structure strong enough to carry heavy loads -- and you can do it with simple manufacturing techniques.

      A secondary advantage is that a

    • why can't we identify a currently living transitionary animal to a currently existing "latest and greatest" evolved creature?

      EVERY population is "transitionary." Evolution occurs in populations, not individuals. Successful genes propagate through populations and unsuccessful ones are weeded out. Over time that genetic drift combined with division into subpopulations produces sufficient variances that we then see them in the fossil record as distinct. Fossil remains are rare, so what we have is a spa

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