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Pluto Decision Meets with Frustration
Posted by
Zonk
on Fri Aug 25, 2006 05:31 PM
from the tiny-grey-different dept.
from the tiny-grey-different dept.
fuzzybunny writes "The BBC reports that the IAU's controversial Prague vote on demoting Pluto from planet status was irregular. 'There were 2,700 astronomers in Prague during that 10-day period. But only 10% of them voted this afternoon.'" On a less serious note, lx writes "Nonplussed by Pluto's recent downgrade from Planet Status, Fox News's own John Gibson does an incredible Stephen Colbert impersonation to correct the 'revisionist history' of the IAU's decision. Exemplifying 'truthiness,' from the article: 'Long ago I learned it was a planet and I see no reason to unlearn it. Why should I?' "
Related Stories
[+]
IAU Demotes Pluto to 'Dwarf Planet' Status 424 comments
davidwr writes "It's official. Pluto's been demoted. It's now one of several 'dwarf planets.' I guess we can drop the 'Period' from 'Mary's violet eyes make John stay up nights.'" (Of course, no one says you have to privately agree with the International Astronomical Union.) Several readers have contributed links to the BBC's coverage of the downgrade, as well as the usefully illustrated story at MSNBC.
[+]
Pluto Making a Comeback 439 comments
anthemaniac writes "Space.com reports that the American Astronomical Unions Division of Planetary Scientists recognizes the IAU's authority to make a new planet defintion but expects it to be altered. Separately, 300 astronomers have signed a petition saying they won't use the definition. All this stems from the discontent over how only 424 astronomers voted on the proposal that demoted Pluto. Looks like this little dog is on the comeback trail."
[+]
"Xena" To Be Named Eris 167 comments
rdwald writes, "After over a year of hanging in maybe-planet limbo, newly-classified 2003 UB313, nicknamed Xena, now has a permanent name: Eris, goddess of strife. Its moon will be named Dysnomia, after the goddess of lawlessness — in Greek mythology, Eris's daughter — certainly not a reference there... I don't think I'm alone when I say, 'Hail Eris! All hail Discordia!'"
In the same IAU announcement (PDF), Pluto was given its official minor planet number: 134340.
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No reason to unlearn it? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:No reason to unlearn it? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:No reason to unlearn it? (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh yes dear me, because information never changes and people should not EVAR be required to use their brains after their youthful indoctrination.
Parent
There is no scientific reason to unlearn (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:There is no scientific reason to unlearn (Score:4, Insightful)
well what has actually happened is that nomenclature has caught up with the facts. The new(ish) fact is that there is a big belt of pluto like objects in similar orbits to pluto. The final straw came when it was discovered that pluto wasn't even the biggest in that belt.
It's also useful in education, because we ask our kids to learn the names of the planets, not every body that orbits the sun. There is really very little useful value in writing new textbooks here.
well you could say there is very little value in teaching our kids the makeup of the solar system at all. After all its not as though any significant number of people leave earth and the only bodies with significant impact on everyday life are the sun and moon.
what we have really discovered here is that pluto was not a one of a kind in a pretty unique orbit but part of a belt of very similar lumps of rock. School textbooks talk about the asteroid belt but not ceres in particular. Similarly they should talk about the kuiper belt but not pluto in particular.
Parent
Re:No reason to unlearn it? (Score:5, Funny)
Pluto downgraded. President still fucking Goofy.
Parent
Re:No reason to unlearn it? (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
...wait... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:...wait... (Score:5, Funny)
Wait, I'm confused. Is this guy copying Colbert or slashdot?
Parent
Pluto (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Pluto (Score:4, Insightful)
Why? Well, first of all it's a lot of fun to argue about stuff like this--and I never could resist a good argument. It's too bad, though, that the astronomers turned this question into a pissing contest--shows they don't know how to have a proper argument. A vote, for cryin' out loud! Now if you want to see the fur fly with panache, call in the philosophers.
Seriously, there are some interesting astronomical questions that are brought up by this "is Pluto a planet?" debate. When Clyde Tombaugh discovered Pluto, astronomers were expecting to find another planet, because there were some irregularities in the motions of the known planets that could only be explained by more mass out beyond Neptune. So when Tombaugh spotted Pluto, everyone shouted "hurray", the problem was solved, and we had nine planets. Only it wasn't quite solved--Pluto didn't have enough mass to really account for all the observed perturbations. Well, at least that's what I remember reading about Pluto...feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Eventually, I think astronomers--and normal human beings--will come to a consensus, and I believe that consensus will indeed confirm Pluto's debasement. Like the guy in one of the articles said, Pluto just isn't that big, so if it qualifies for planet-hood, then a lot of other rocks do too. Clearly, that would get too confusing--it was bad enough just having to remember nine planets...think of the children!
One thing that makes this such a productive argument is that it forces us to acknowledge that the solar system is a more complicated--and vastly more interesting--place than we thought. I think that's a good thing...even if it means the last true thing I learned in school has just gone down the tubes.
I'll tell you what, though--while we're cleaning up astronomical nomenclature, let's do something about The Unmentionable Planet--you know the one just this side of Neptune, which was discovered to have rings around it. Ever since that joke went around, no one has been able to say--or even think--the name without dissolving into a fit of hysterical laughter. My personal favorite solution is to Greek-ify the spelling and pronunciation a bit to render it harmless: maybe "Ouranos".
Parent
Re: (Score:3)
Jesus, did people in the 1850s cry this much when Ceres was downgraded?
Re:Pluto (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
How about this? (Score:5, Insightful)
Pluto: Neptune's Canada (Score:5, Funny)
Much like how the United States still refers to Canada as a soveriegn nation, instead of a 51st state.
Parent
Re:Pluto: Neptune's Canada (Score:4, Funny)
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re:How about this? (Score:5, Funny)
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Parent
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
They were called planets for quite a bit of time. There's a number of precedents for such demotion.
Re:How about this? (Score:4, Insightful)
Parent
bad diet? (Score:3, Funny)
Well then, it sounds like they need more fiber.
I learned everything I need to know on Fox News (Score:5, Funny)
Don't fret it. Long ago Romans learned it was a god. They didn't have to unlearn it. Their empire simply collapsed.
We got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Long ago I learned it was a planet and I see no reason to unlearn it. Why should I?
Because we were wrong. It's orbit is incredibly un-circular, it wildly off the plane of the solar system, and it's smaller than the moon! It never belonged in the pigeon-hole we've labelled "planet".
Part of science is accurate classification. We can't label something just because we want to.
Re:We got it wrong (Score:5, Insightful)
Exactly! It's like saying "I learned the earth is the center of the universe and I see no reason to unlearn it." It's plain and simply factually *wrong*, and people who react this way betray an alarming inability to accept new facts, instead clinging onto their pre-existing notions with near *religious* ferver.
Yes, that last bit was flamebait.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes, but *no other planetary object* has such a highly elliptic, inclined orbit. Pluto is the only one. I think that's sufficient reason to believe that it belongs to another class of objects (Kuiper belt objects, to be precise).
Also, Saturn's moon Titan is bigger than the planet Mercury, so si
This is a change in definition, not in knowledge (Score:5, Informative)
The people who want to stick with Pluto as a planet are at least as rational and justified in their belief as the people who want to change it.
Parent
Considering... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Considering... (Score:5, Informative)
As such:
See this [nineplanets.org] for more.Parent
Re:9planets.org? (Score:4, Informative)
Parent
Check it yourself! (Score:3, Informative)
Item 4.7.3. "The case of Pluto and Neptune" explains why they will never collide, and gives the source code for implementing the simulation. Sorry, it's in BASIC, but you can easily reimplement it in Perl or Python, or whatever your favourite langage is, it's just one page of code.
Recount (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Recount (Score:4, Funny)
He says he is "committed to helping deliver the Republicans to Pluto next year".
Parent
orly (Score:5, Insightful)
Before five hundred years ago [wikipedia.org] I learned that the Earth was flat and I see no reason to unlearn it. Why should I?
A question of fairness and integrity (Score:5, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Two things really bothered me about this decision, and neither of them are the decision that Pluto is not a planet, but have to do with the way the decision was made.
1) When asked about applying this definition to other stars and their potential planets, the committee that proposed this definition said that the definition on the table only applies
John Gibson == dumbass (Score:5, Interesting)
He says, "All of a sudden Ringo isn't a Beatle? All of a sudden somebody changes a standard and Curly isn't a stooge, or Zeppo isn't a Marx, or Ari isn't one of the "Entourage"? Actually I don't know why Pluto got itself unmade as a planet. I didn't even read the rest of the story, frankly."
My god. Yeah, because Ringo Starr's status as a Beatle hinges on statistics and his orbital ellipse, just like Pluto's. Look out for that 'Two Stooges' DVD also. John Gibson sounds like a prick -- if our understanding of the universe evolved John Gibson's way, we might still be afraid to fall off the edge of the world, or the Sun might still rotate around the Earth. The changing of 'standards' is inevitable as a better understanding of the universe becomes available. The more technologically advanced we become, you can bet laws, theories, and yes, even TEXTBOOK PRINT may become outdated.
(Note: this rant directed toward John Gibson's stupid 'rebuttal,' regardless of the IAU decision whether Pluto should be considered a planet or not.
Why? (Score:4, Interesting)
Ever look at the price tag on a Textbook?, those things are expensive.
To pay for the textbook publishers political action committee.
Think of the money that will need to be spent by schools for new science textbooks; just after they got done replacing them to give equal space to 'Intelligent Design'.
You might think it's unimportant, but when the federally mandated standardised test asks how many planets are in the Solar System...
Dear Stephen Colbert... (Score:5, Funny)
NASA's new mission: to set foot on a planet (Score:5, Insightful)
(2) looks OK, but the IAU folks have taken the (IMHO) insane view that a "dwarf planet" is not a subtype of "planet" at all (contrast "dwarf pine tree" or "dwarf sunflower" or "dwarf hippopotamus", all of which are subtypes of their source nown). That destroys a potential way to finesse the Pluto issue -- by calling it a dwarf planet, they could have let everyone have their semantic cake, and eat it too.
On a different note, another scientist friend of mine just told me his six-year-old daughter burst into tears when she found out Pluto isn't to be considered a planet anymore. :-(
Re:NASA's new mission: to set foot on a planet (Score:5, Informative)
Earth is not a planet, because it has not cleared the neighborhood around its orbit -- there exist Near-Earth asteroids and Earth-crossing asteroids. (One might argue that this is getting worse, what with all the space debris we keep flinging into near-Earth solar orbit).
To quote a response from Wikipedia: Even if you don't neglect the Trojan asteroids and other such objects, all the gas giants have cleared their orbits. The Trojans are at very specific points along Jupiters orbit that are defined by Jupiter's gravity. If Jupiter hadn't cleared its orbit they would not be restricted to those points. A massive body collects all bodies near it either into itself, its orbit, its L4 and L5 points with the sun, into resonant orbits, or it ejects them. Its just like cleaning your room. It doesn't mean nothing is in your room, but simply that it's all neatly put away.
Also, I highly recommend that you read this paper [arxiv.org].
Parent
Neptune and Pluto (Score:4, Informative)
Correct decision, IAU, well done
Parent
Back in the day (Score:5, Interesting)
"I grew up with eight planets. Now some know-nothing radicle tells me there are nine? This 'planet' Pluto is nothing but a rock of ice in space."
Never should've been a planet anyway (Score:5, Insightful)
Now we've discovered UB313, Sedna, Ixion, Quoar and others, and it's clear that Pluto's only the most prominent representative of the Kuiper belt, just as Ceres is the most prominent member of the asteroid belt. The media that are causing this furor are ignorant of the real issues involved and seem merely interested in running stories about Mrs. Johnson's 3rd grade class being upset about Mickey's dog.
Pluto is still there. It's still the same size and mass it always was, and New Horizons is still going to visit it. But it never would be called a planet if it were discovered today.
Way to end the debate (Score:5, Funny)
This is not a scientific matter (Score:3, Insightful)
MOD UP (plus my own two cents) (Score:3, Insightful)
As s20451 points out, this has been a week full of idiotic bullshit. In a week where the JonBenet thing dominates the news, I think griping out Pluto getting a few minutes of coverage on the nightly news is really that much of a disaster.
But unlike the JonBenet crap, this Pluto case actually touches on something that *is* interesting. I didn't RTFA (c'mon, this is slashdot!) but the summary sounds pretty familiar. As stated above, conservatives see this as one more example of how the pinko-commie-libera
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't get this either - that's from a quote from a Harvard professor who drafted the proposal to increase the number of planets. From somebody from such a background, I'd hope for more accuracy - even if he'd doubled that figure, it'd have been closer (since the actual figure is ~15.7%).
It's also interesting that, out of the two quotes in the article against this decision, one is from somebody leading a mission to Pluto, the other is from somebody who helped
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
My Very Exotic Mistress Just Showed Up Nude.
Now that's news.
Re:PLUTO IS STILL A PLANET (Score:4, Funny)
Parent